Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are an atheist family raising our children in the secular tradition. I absolutely love secular Christmas and have a blast taking in all the experiences. That being said, the focus on consumerism and waste has really gotten under my skin in recent years. I have done my part to slow or stop the adult gift giving and am trying to limit the amount of new in box plastic that comes in for the kids. They already have so many toys from past birthdays, Christmases, and one off visits, we have so little space, and it makes me feel very Grinchy to have to spend my precious vacation time with them around the holidays purging their spaces just to make room for junk they’ll forget in two weeks. All that is to say, Grandma’s joy brings me a lot of grief.

I am very generous with loved ones on their birthdays and special occasions. But I’d rather spend time with them and enjoy experiences with them than opening gifts.

Your post about “secular Christmas” is offensive. If you scoff at that, please go post threads about Secular Yom Kippur, Secular Ramadan, and Secular Rosh Hannakuh and get back to us.

Dp You know what pp? You chose to be offended so that is on you. People do celebrate secular Christmas unlike the other holidays you mentioned.
I don't know why you are so offended on how other people live their lives. We should be allowed to share our views.

I think pp is being naive, so many 'cultural' christians and atheist families enjoy Christmas as a secular family get together holiday barely giving any thought to the Christian element. Some of my Buddhist family members in Thailand enjoy Christmas too! Wasn't it documented that JC was born in the summer?

The Catholic Church started Christmas via Pope Constantine.

CHRIST + MASS. Mass = catholic church service.

It's absolutely a Christian holiday.

If atheists or people of other faiths decorate Christmas trees and exchange gifts, it doesn't change fact that it's a Christian holiday. When I attend a Hannukah dinner, or join an Eid celebration, it doesn't secularize their holiday. How offensive to even suggest that for any religion!!

What I find so amusing is that there are Christians who are upset that secular society has coopted Christmas to be a secular holiday, when Christians coopted a pagan holiday. I think they are upset that the same thing they did to the pagans was done to them.

Historians have estimated that Jesus Christ was born in the springtime, much closer to Easter than to Christmas. However, in the 4th century, Christianity was struggling to become significant and they realized that they did not have major holidays that drew followers. So they moved the celebration of Christ to December 25th to be close to the Winter Solstice and on the date of the Saturnalia to directly conflict with pagan holidays that were extremely popular. Then they coopted winter solstice traditions and symbols (evergreens, holly, wreaths, carolling, candles, wassail, gift giving, Santa Claus, stockings, tree decorations) to make the holiday more festive and easier to celebrate and appreciate. By coopted symbols that people were already familiar with, they made it easier to convert from celebrating Saturnalia and the winter solstice to celebrating the Christian holiday of Christmas.

Now, centuries later, the Christian holiday has largely become a secular holiday with the majority of people not celebrating any of the religious themes for the holidays. Now, Santa Claus, elves, snowmen (especially Frosty), reindeer (especially Rudolf) and snowflakes, plus all of those pagan symbols are as common or more common in Christmas celebrations and decorations than crosses, mangers, stars, angels, and Jesus.

Christmas was never a Christian holiday. It was a coopted pagan holiday. Christians converted it to a Christian religious holiday and now they are upset that it's been taken back essentially by the pagans or at least the secular non-religious majority.

OP, I'm not sure why you are being so antagonistic to your BIL's choice for his family not to partake of your traditions. You are being crappy host by insisting that you should find a way to take your sister and BIL's decision away from them. They have decided that since your whole family is together, that they want to see the full extended family and, as you've pointed out, this is probably the only time all year that everyone will be together. They've acknowledged that and although they probably wish they could find another occasion to see everyone, you've all made that impossible. So, they are compromising their beliefs by attending a holiday party with the concession that they won't partake of Christian holiday traditions.

You should be a gracious host and be happy that they are joining the extended family. As a good host, you would be finding a way to allow them to attend and enjoy everyone's company without making them uncomfortable, but you've decided to dig in your heels and try to cast your BIL as a villain, even though your sister and he made a joint decision to not partake of the traditions with religious overtones.

I have an alienated family member. If they decided to join the extended family for a rare visit when everyone was together I would be going out of my way to find a way for them to enjoy the occasion, even if they didn't want to partake of family traditions at the time. In this example, you could invite the rest of the family at noon, give out gifts at 1pm and have your sister and BIL arrive at 3pm and stay through dinner. Everyone gets to enjoy the occasion, but sister and BIL and nephew are not there for the gift unwrapping. Alternatively, invite everyone early and tell sister and BIL that you'll be doing holiday traditions after an early dinner, so if they want to bundle up your nephew after dinner (since he's only 3, he's likely going to need to be in bed early anyways) and you can have dinner at like 4pm and gift unwrapping at 6pm. They can have dinner and leave. This also works because then you can save all of the sweet treats and desserts for after dinner after they've left and you've avoided another potential meltdown potential, all in one.

I have a feeling that you'd be a good and gracious host for any other situation. If you had invited guests that were important to have and they had some restriction, I'd expect that you'd bend over backwards to be a good host. But in this case, you are letting your mother's whining and your sense of tradition cloud your judgment and instead of being a good host, you are digging in your heels to blame your BIL for being unreasonable and trying to ruin your holiday and letting your mother's emotions stop you from being a gracious host.

Try to look at this with some empathy towards the family who does not share your traditions and look for a way to entertain them and still host family traditions without them, by doing the traditions either early or late.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are so concerned about Larlo - although a lot of energy here has been about how the adult grandmother feels, but if you are sooo concerned about how this child feels the best thing you can do is to provide a loving and accepting environment for his whole family. You can only control how YOU behave. So if Larlo gets upset you don’t say “mommy and daddy wouldn’t let us give you a gift” you provide a distraction. Take him to pet the dog or show him a magic trick. He’s only 3. It will pass. As he gets older his parents will explain things to him and his expectations will be different. Maybe he will be resentful but that’s not your problem. This child is a member of your family and your job is to love him and his parents in spite of your fundamental differences. You teach him about generosity of spirit and unconditional love.

Why is it wrong to be concerned about Larlo?

Literally no one said it was wrong to be concerned about Larlo - the OP seemed more concerned about her mother than Larlo frankly.

Op (me) is concerned for both.

Larlo deserves a Christmas gift with his family. It won’t hurt anything.

To the posters above who advised to distract Larlo during gift opening; that’s on his parents. They want larlo to live as they choose, they can deal with the ramifications of their choices. It’s their choice! They can deal. Honestly nothing is going to placate a child in this situation.

Sure sounds like someone can’t be placated.

Yup OP doesn't care about anything but being right and making sure that BIL and sister know this. I didn't know Jesus but I'm sure he'd try to make sure the kid was as happy as he could make him regardless of the parents but obviously that part of the teaching is lost on OP. Let the kid be sad so the parents can see how wrong they are (secretly hopes the kid is super sad).

DP. So you’re advocating for everybody else, including all the other kids, having to sneak around with their gift-giving to placate Larlo’s parents? How is this a better solution?

No, I was saying that the OP could try to distract Larlo if he becomes unhappy. Of course they should do the gifts but the kind thing would be to try to ensure that you make your nephew feel ok IF he feels unhappy. Kid might be just fine. But OP is more interested in tut tutting at the bad parenting than trying to ensure her nephew has an ok day. Instead of being adults and saying “Sheesh this seems a little extreme but we love Linda, Larry and Larlo and we’ll do our best.” The OP has been champing at the bit for justification to give the kid a toy despite BOTH parents saying that goes against their values. They shouldn’t have to justify their values any more than anyone else does but OP and others think their religious beliefs supersede any other beliefs, even when they are held by people they profess to love. OP is more interested in being right than being happy.

No, I want Larlo to be happy.

No you don't. You said so yourself:

To the posters above who advised to distract Larlo during gift opening; that’s on his parents. They want larlo to live as they choose, they can deal with the ramifications of their choices. It’s their choice! They can deal. Honestly nothing is going to placate a child in this situation.

You want to be right.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are so concerned about Larlo - although a lot of energy here has been about how the adult grandmother feels, but if you are sooo concerned about how this child feels the best thing you can do is to provide a loving and accepting environment for his whole family. You can only control how YOU behave. So if Larlo gets upset you don’t say “mommy and daddy wouldn’t let us give you a gift” you provide a distraction. Take him to pet the dog or show him a magic trick. He’s only 3. It will pass. As he gets older his parents will explain things to him and his expectations will be different. Maybe he will be resentful but that’s not your problem. This child is a member of your family and your job is to love him and his parents in spite of your fundamental differences. You teach him about generosity of spirit and unconditional love.

Why is it wrong to be concerned about Larlo?

Literally no one said it was wrong to be concerned about Larlo - the OP seemed more concerned about her mother than Larlo frankly.

Op (me) is concerned for both.

Larlo deserves a Christmas gift with his family. It won’t hurt anything.

To the posters above who advised to distract Larlo during gift opening; that’s on his parents. They want larlo to live as they choose, they can deal with the ramifications of their choices. It’s their choice! They can deal. Honestly nothing is going to placate a child in this situation.

Sure sounds like someone can’t be placated.

Yup OP doesn't care about anything but being right and making sure that BIL and sister know this. I didn't know Jesus but I'm sure he'd try to make sure the kid was as happy as he could make him regardless of the parents but obviously that part of the teaching is lost on OP. Let the kid be sad so the parents can see how wrong they are (secretly hopes the kid is super sad).

DP. So you’re advocating for everybody else, including all the other kids, having to sneak around with their gift-giving to placate Larlo’s parents? How is this a better solution?

No, I was saying that the OP could try to distract Larlo if he becomes unhappy. Of course they should do the gifts but the kind thing would be to try to ensure that you make your nephew feel ok IF he feels unhappy. Kid might be just fine. But OP is more interested in tut tutting at the bad parenting than trying to ensure her nephew has an ok day. Instead of being adults and saying “Sheesh this seems a little extreme but we love Linda, Larry and Larlo and we’ll do our best.” The OP has been champing at the bit for justification to give the kid a toy despite BOTH parents saying that goes against their values. They shouldn’t have to justify their values any more than anyone else does but OP and others think their religious beliefs supersede any other beliefs, even when they are held by people they profess to love. OP is more interested in being right than being happy.

No, I want Larlo to be happy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband is an atheist and he is the most enthusiastic about celebrating Christmas at our house. The only people I know who won't do secular Christmas are Jewish or Jehovah's Witness.

This

It’s possible that OP’s BIL didn’t grow up with Christmas at all and doesn’t feel comfortable with it.

Anyway, it doesn’t matter. Parents get to make decisions about their own kids. Not judgmental aunts.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are so concerned about Larlo - although a lot of energy here has been about how the adult grandmother feels, but if you are sooo concerned about how this child feels the best thing you can do is to provide a loving and accepting environment for his whole family. You can only control how YOU behave. So if Larlo gets upset you don’t say “mommy and daddy wouldn’t let us give you a gift” you provide a distraction. Take him to pet the dog or show him a magic trick. He’s only 3. It will pass. As he gets older his parents will explain things to him and his expectations will be different. Maybe he will be resentful but that’s not your problem. This child is a member of your family and your job is to love him and his parents in spite of your fundamental differences. You teach him about generosity of spirit and unconditional love.

Why is it wrong to be concerned about Larlo?

Literally no one said it was wrong to be concerned about Larlo - the OP seemed more concerned about her mother than Larlo frankly.

Op (me) is concerned for both.

Larlo deserves a Christmas gift with his family. It won’t hurt anything.

To the posters above who advised to distract Larlo during gift opening; that’s on his parents. They want larlo to live as they choose, they can deal with the ramifications of their choices. It’s their choice! They can deal. Honestly nothing is going to placate a child in this situation.

Sure sounds like someone can’t be placated.

Yup OP doesn't care about anything but being right and making sure that BIL and sister know this. I didn't know Jesus but I'm sure he'd try to make sure the kid was as happy as he could make him regardless of the parents but obviously that part of the teaching is lost on OP. Let the kid be sad so the parents can see how wrong they are (secretly hopes the kid is super sad).

DP. So you’re advocating for everybody else, including all the other kids, having to sneak around with their gift-giving to placate Larlo’s parents? How is this a better solution?

No, I was saying that the OP could try to distract Larlo if he becomes unhappy. Of course they should do the gifts but the kind thing would be to try to ensure that you make your nephew feel ok IF he feels unhappy. Kid might be just fine. But OP is more interested in tut tutting at the bad parenting than trying to ensure her nephew has an ok day. Instead of being adults and saying “Sheesh this seems a little extreme but we love Linda, Larry and Larlo and we’ll do our best.” The OP has been champing at the bit for justification to give the kid a toy despite BOTH parents saying that goes against their values. They shouldn’t have to justify their values any more than anyone else does but OP and others think their religious beliefs supersede any other beliefs, even when they are held by people they profess to love. OP is more interested in being right than being happy.

Anonymous wrote:My husband is an atheist and he is the most enthusiastic about celebrating Christmas at our house. The only people I know who won't do secular Christmas are Jewish or Jehovah's Witness.

This

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are so concerned about Larlo - although a lot of energy here has been about how the adult grandmother feels, but if you are sooo concerned about how this child feels the best thing you can do is to provide a loving and accepting environment for his whole family. You can only control how YOU behave. So if Larlo gets upset you don’t say “mommy and daddy wouldn’t let us give you a gift” you provide a distraction. Take him to pet the dog or show him a magic trick. He’s only 3. It will pass. As he gets older his parents will explain things to him and his expectations will be different. Maybe he will be resentful but that’s not your problem. This child is a member of your family and your job is to love him and his parents in spite of your fundamental differences. You teach him about generosity of spirit and unconditional love.

Why is it wrong to be concerned about Larlo?

Literally no one said it was wrong to be concerned about Larlo - the OP seemed more concerned about her mother than Larlo frankly.

Op (me) is concerned for both.

Larlo deserves a Christmas gift with his family. It won’t hurt anything.

To the posters above who advised to distract Larlo during gift opening; that’s on his parents. They want larlo to live as they choose, they can deal with the ramifications of their choices. It’s their choice! They can deal. Honestly nothing is going to placate a child in this situation.

Sure sounds like someone can’t be placated.

Yup OP doesn't care about anything but being right and making sure that BIL and sister know this. I didn't know Jesus but I'm sure he'd try to make sure the kid was as happy as he could make him regardless of the parents but obviously that part of the teaching is lost on OP. Let the kid be sad so the parents can see how wrong they are (secretly hopes the kid is super sad).

DP. So you’re advocating for everybody else, including all the other kids, having to sneak around with their gift-giving to placate Larlo’s parents? How is this a better solution?

My husband is an atheist and he is the most enthusiastic about celebrating Christmas at our house. The only people I know who won't do secular Christmas are Jewish or Jehovah's Witness.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are so concerned about Larlo - although a lot of energy here has been about how the adult grandmother feels, but if you are sooo concerned about how this child feels the best thing you can do is to provide a loving and accepting environment for his whole family. You can only control how YOU behave. So if Larlo gets upset you don’t say “mommy and daddy wouldn’t let us give you a gift” you provide a distraction. Take him to pet the dog or show him a magic trick. He’s only 3. It will pass. As he gets older his parents will explain things to him and his expectations will be different. Maybe he will be resentful but that’s not your problem. This child is a member of your family and your job is to love him and his parents in spite of your fundamental differences. You teach him about generosity of spirit and unconditional love.

Why is it wrong to be concerned about Larlo?

Literally no one said it was wrong to be concerned about Larlo - the OP seemed more concerned about her mother than Larlo frankly.

Op (me) is concerned for both.

Larlo deserves a Christmas gift with his family. It won’t hurt anything.

To the posters above who advised to distract Larlo during gift opening; that’s on his parents. They want larlo to live as they choose, they can deal with the ramifications of their choices. It’s their choice! They can deal. Honestly nothing is going to placate a child in this situation.

Sure sounds like someone can’t be placated.

Yup OP doesn't care about anything but being right and making sure that BIL and sister know this. I didn't know Jesus but I'm sure he'd try to make sure the kid was as happy as he could make him regardless of the parents but obviously that part of the teaching is lost on OP. Let the kid be sad so the parents can see how wrong they are (secretly hopes the kid is super sad).

You don’t speak for me at all. I am dreadfully anxious about Larlo’s reaction at the Christmas celebration. So is everyone. We are all sad for Larlo.

YOU are dreadfully anxious and sad (and so is "everyone"). Larlo will be fine, and if they're upset the parents will deal with it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are so concerned about Larlo - although a lot of energy here has been about how the adult grandmother feels, but if you are sooo concerned about how this child feels the best thing you can do is to provide a loving and accepting environment for his whole family. You can only control how YOU behave. So if Larlo gets upset you don’t say “mommy and daddy wouldn’t let us give you a gift” you provide a distraction. Take him to pet the dog or show him a magic trick. He’s only 3. It will pass. As he gets older his parents will explain things to him and his expectations will be different. Maybe he will be resentful but that’s not your problem. This child is a member of your family and your job is to love him and his parents in spite of your fundamental differences. You teach him about generosity of spirit and unconditional love.

Why is it wrong to be concerned about Larlo?

Literally no one said it was wrong to be concerned about Larlo - the OP seemed more concerned about her mother than Larlo frankly.

Op (me) is concerned for both.

Larlo deserves a Christmas gift with his family. It won’t hurt anything.

To the posters above who advised to distract Larlo during gift opening; that’s on his parents. They want larlo to live as they choose, they can deal with the ramifications of their choices. It’s their choice! They can deal. Honestly nothing is going to placate a child in this situation.

Sure sounds like someone can’t be placated.

Yup OP doesn't care about anything but being right and making sure that BIL and sister know this. I didn't know Jesus but I'm sure he'd try to make sure the kid was as happy as he could make him regardless of the parents but obviously that part of the teaching is lost on OP. Let the kid be sad so the parents can see how wrong they are (secretly hopes the kid is super sad).

You don’t speak for me at all. I am dreadfully anxious about Larlo’s reaction at the Christmas celebration. So is everyone. We are all sad for Larlo.

Remove the religious/Christmas element, and recognize that different families have different rules and expectations, and it's up to the parents to do what they think is best for their family. My kids don't always get what they want (toys, treats, a trip to Disney, late bed time) even if others around them get it.

If your BIL is looking for a reason to cut your family out of the picture, intentionally going against his beliefs is going to give him a reason to do so. If grandma wants a good relationship with the family, she should request their wishes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are so concerned about Larlo - although a lot of energy here has been about how the adult grandmother feels, but if you are sooo concerned about how this child feels the best thing you can do is to provide a loving and accepting environment for his whole family. You can only control how YOU behave. So if Larlo gets upset you don’t say “mommy and daddy wouldn’t let us give you a gift” you provide a distraction. Take him to pet the dog or show him a magic trick. He’s only 3. It will pass. As he gets older his parents will explain things to him and his expectations will be different. Maybe he will be resentful but that’s not your problem. This child is a member of your family and your job is to love him and his parents in spite of your fundamental differences. You teach him about generosity of spirit and unconditional love.

Why is it wrong to be concerned about Larlo?

Literally no one said it was wrong to be concerned about Larlo - the OP seemed more concerned about her mother than Larlo frankly.

Op (me) is concerned for both.

Larlo deserves a Christmas gift with his family. It won’t hurt anything.

To the posters above who advised to distract Larlo during gift opening; that’s on his parents. They want larlo to live as they choose, they can deal with the ramifications of their choices. It’s their choice! They can deal. Honestly nothing is going to placate a child in this situation.

Sure sounds like someone can’t be placated.

Yup OP doesn't care about anything but being right and making sure that BIL and sister know this. I didn't know Jesus but I'm sure he'd try to make sure the kid was as happy as he could make him regardless of the parents but obviously that part of the teaching is lost on OP. Let the kid be sad so the parents can see how wrong they are (secretly hopes the kid is super sad).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are so concerned about Larlo - although a lot of energy here has been about how the adult grandmother feels, but if you are sooo concerned about how this child feels the best thing you can do is to provide a loving and accepting environment for his whole family. You can only control how YOU behave. So if Larlo gets upset you don’t say “mommy and daddy wouldn’t let us give you a gift” you provide a distraction. Take him to pet the dog or show him a magic trick. He’s only 3. It will pass. As he gets older his parents will explain things to him and his expectations will be different. Maybe he will be resentful but that’s not your problem. This child is a member of your family and your job is to love him and his parents in spite of your fundamental differences. You teach him about generosity of spirit and unconditional love.

Why is it wrong to be concerned about Larlo?

Literally no one said it was wrong to be concerned about Larlo - the OP seemed more concerned about her mother than Larlo frankly.

Op (me) is concerned for both.

Larlo deserves a Christmas gift with his family. It won’t hurt anything.

To the posters above who advised to distract Larlo during gift opening; that’s on his parents. They want larlo to live as they choose, they can deal with the ramifications of their choices. It’s their choice! They can deal. Honestly nothing is going to placate a child in this situation.

Sure sounds like someone can’t be placated.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are so concerned about Larlo - although a lot of energy here has been about how the adult grandmother feels, but if you are sooo concerned about how this child feels the best thing you can do is to provide a loving and accepting environment for his whole family. You can only control how YOU behave. So if Larlo gets upset you don’t say “mommy and daddy wouldn’t let us give you a gift” you provide a distraction. Take him to pet the dog or show him a magic trick. He’s only 3. It will pass. As he gets older his parents will explain things to him and his expectations will be different. Maybe he will be resentful but that’s not your problem. This child is a member of your family and your job is to love him and his parents in spite of your fundamental differences. You teach him about generosity of spirit and unconditional love.

Why is it wrong to be concerned about Larlo?

Literally no one said it was wrong to be concerned about Larlo - the OP seemed more concerned about her mother than Larlo frankly.

Op (me) is concerned for both.

Larlo deserves a Christmas gift with his family. It won’t hurt anything.

To the posters above who advised to distract Larlo during gift opening; that’s on his parents. They want larlo to live as they choose, they can deal with the ramifications of their choices. It’s their choice! They can deal. Honestly nothing is going to placate a child in this situation.