Anonymous
04/09/2022 13:52
Subject: Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The point is that Dartmouth absolutely is “middling” when it comes to research in comparison to its peer institutions. That’s not a controversial or unpopular or inaccurate statement whatsoever.
But it crushes institutions that do a lot more research for the quality of undergraduate education and the outcomes of its graduates. Why is this so difficult to understand?
OK, and?
Well, those are the top priorities for an undergraduate education.
OK, and we were talking about research.
No. The discussion had focused on undergraduate institutions and study.
Please learn how to read. The fact that Dartmouth is a middling research institution and a good undergrad institution are not contradictory. The comment you initially responded literally said that Dartmouth is middling when it comes to research. Prior comments in this thread were also talking about Dartmouth's stature as a research institution.
Anonymous
04/09/2022 13:50
Subject: Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The point is that Dartmouth absolutely is “middling” when it comes to research in comparison to its peer institutions. That’s not a controversial or unpopular or inaccurate statement whatsoever.
But it crushes institutions that do a lot more research for the quality of undergraduate education and the outcomes of its graduates. Why is this so difficult to understand?
OK, and?
Well, those are the top priorities for an undergraduate education.
OK, and we were talking about research.
DP here.
Yes, and first Dartmouth was "middling" and then suddenly that was changed to "middling compared to its peers".
So what defines its peers? Probably PP's reason for pointing out undergraduate education quality, no?
You really should give this up, you've been beaten down at every turn. Just say you hate Dartmouth for whatever reason you do, at least that can't be disputed.
Anonymous
04/09/2022 13:15
Subject: Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The point is that Dartmouth absolutely is “middling” when it comes to research in comparison to its peer institutions. That’s not a controversial or unpopular or inaccurate statement whatsoever.
But it crushes institutions that do a lot more research for the quality of undergraduate education and the outcomes of its graduates. Why is this so difficult to understand?
OK, and?
Well, those are the top priorities for an undergraduate education.
OK, and we were talking about research.
No. The discussion had focused on undergraduate institutions and study.
Anonymous
04/09/2022 12:39
Subject: Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The point is that Dartmouth absolutely is “middling” when it comes to research in comparison to its peer institutions. That’s not a controversial or unpopular or inaccurate statement whatsoever.
But it crushes institutions that do a lot more research for the quality of undergraduate education and the outcomes of its graduates. Why is this so difficult to understand?
OK, and?
Well, those are the top priorities for an undergraduate education.
OK, and we were talking about research.
Anonymous
04/09/2022 12:30
Subject: Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The point is that Dartmouth absolutely is “middling” when it comes to research in comparison to its peer institutions. That’s not a controversial or unpopular or inaccurate statement whatsoever.
But it crushes institutions that do a lot more research for the quality of undergraduate education and the outcomes of its graduates. Why is this so difficult to understand?
OK, and?
Well, those are the top priorities for an undergraduate education.
Anonymous
04/09/2022 12:06
Subject: Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The point is that Dartmouth absolutely is “middling” when it comes to research in comparison to its peer institutions. That’s not a controversial or unpopular or inaccurate statement whatsoever.
But it crushes institutions that do a lot more research for the quality of undergraduate education and the outcomes of its graduates. Why is this so difficult to understand?
OK, and?
Anonymous
04/09/2022 11:48
Subject: Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:The point is that Dartmouth absolutely is “middling” when it comes to research in comparison to its peer institutions. That’s not a controversial or unpopular or inaccurate statement whatsoever.
But it crushes institutions that do a lot more research for the quality of undergraduate education and the outcomes of its graduates. Why is this so difficult to understand?
Anonymous
04/08/2022 15:16
Subject: Re:Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:W&M is an obvious answer.
Ranking drop from 32 -> 38.
Acceptance rate went from 33% to 42%, higher than large publics like UT Austin and UMD. While large publics like Berkeley are reaching single-digit acceptance rates, W&M's is increasing.
Student enrollment has increased.
Their law school has gone completely downhill.
W&M used to be more difficult to get into than UVA, due to a smaller number seats. It had higher SAT scores than UVA, the highest among publics comparable to Berkley. It was compared to the smaller Ivies like Dartmouth/Brown and SLACs like Swarthmore. It attracted out-of-staters and wealthy internationals that would never consider a large public for OOS tuition, but would consider W&M due to the size and feel.
Nowadays, UVA is far more tougher to get in, has far higher SAT scores and far great national and international reach.
Per most recent CDS:
UVA 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1330-1490
W&M 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1360-1520
both have average GPAs of 4.3.
Perhaps W&M’s higher acceptance rate is a function of some other factor other than the caliber of students they attract. Maybe since UVA and has more prominent sports and a better college town and is bigger it appeals to more kids who apply that are more borderline. W&M is bit more niche in that it a very small public, so more like a SLAC. Williamsburg is pretty sleepy too.
Maybe, just maybe, acceptance rate is not a good indication of how good a school is at any rate.
NNo they don't., the GPA of the actual class that enrolled at UVA last fall had a 4.52 at the 75th percentile, a 4.39 at the median and a 4.23 for the bottom 25th percentile. W&M's student profile runs lower: 4.50 at the 75th, 4.30 at the 50th and a 4.08 at the bottom 25th.
UVA also beats W&M wiht ACT scores, the 74th/50th/30th percentiles are 35/34/32 for UVA and for W&M the ACTSare 34/33/31
At the 75th percentile, SAT score/GPA is 1520/4.50 at W&M and 1510/4.52 at UVA. Virtually the same. The difference in the last couple of years has been at the lower half, with UVA higher. It used to be the opposite if you look at SCHEV historical data. When W&M had higher average SAT scores than UVA, I did not think UVA is in decline. I just think there are trends that play out over some period of time and then new trends emerge. W&M needs to get more applicants to better fill out the bottom half stats.
In USNEWS rankings, both UVA and W&M have been hurt by the inclusion of the social mobility metrics based on Pell Grant recipients. Both schools are relatively low in percentage of students receiving Pell Grants particularly compared to schools in other states like the UC universities. Outside of that, the big movers in USNWR in my recollection have been private universities (Chicago, Vanderbilt, Northeastern, etc.) They seem to have more levers to pull in rankings than public schools.
They are not virtually the same. UVA is higher in 8 categories than W&M. Also you conveniently didn't address the ACT issue. ACT scores get exponentially more difficult to get closer to the top of the pyramid. A 36 is achieved by only 3,655 - 4,4,044 (changes every year) of the 1.6M taking the test, or .313% of the students taking it. A 35 is only 11,983 students .925% of test applicants nationwide. The fact that the 75th percentile of enrolled student at UVA has a 35 or better is astounding. W&M can boast only a 34 taps into a different level below. Here's the chart
ACT Score # of Students Percentage of All Test Takers
36 4,055 0.313%
35 11,983 0.925%
34 15,875 1.226%
33 18,424 1.422%
Keep in mind that only about 20% of students at UVA submit the ACT (vs 50% for SAT) . So 25% of that number scoring 35 or higher (75th percentile) could be as few as 210 students (out of the 16,000 or so nationally) for Fall 2021 class.
2021 is light years ago in the college admissions wars.
What is happening in the Ukraine is a war.
Jesus Christ.
They are both minor skirmishes compared to the War on Christmas.
DP. Really? People are being slaughtered in Ukraine and this is yiur response?
PP. I was being sarcastic. Hence the eye roll emoji.
Anonymous
04/08/2022 15:13
Subject: Re:Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:W&M is an obvious answer.
Ranking drop from 32 -> 38.
Acceptance rate went from 33% to 42%, higher than large publics like UT Austin and UMD. While large publics like Berkeley are reaching single-digit acceptance rates, W&M's is increasing.
Student enrollment has increased.
Their law school has gone completely downhill.
W&M used to be more difficult to get into than UVA, due to a smaller number seats. It had higher SAT scores than UVA, the highest among publics comparable to Berkley. It was compared to the smaller Ivies like Dartmouth/Brown and SLACs like Swarthmore. It attracted out-of-staters and wealthy internationals that would never consider a large public for OOS tuition, but would consider W&M due to the size and feel.
Nowadays, UVA is far more tougher to get in, has far higher SAT scores and far great national and international reach.
Per most recent CDS:
UVA 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1330-1490
W&M 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1360-1520
both have average GPAs of 4.3.
Perhaps W&M’s higher acceptance rate is a function of some other factor other than the caliber of students they attract. Maybe since UVA and has more prominent sports and a better college town and is bigger it appeals to more kids who apply that are more borderline. W&M is bit more niche in that it a very small public, so more like a SLAC. Williamsburg is pretty sleepy too.
Maybe, just maybe, acceptance rate is not a good indication of how good a school is at any rate.
NNo they don't., the GPA of the actual class that enrolled at UVA last fall had a 4.52 at the 75th percentile, a 4.39 at the median and a 4.23 for the bottom 25th percentile. W&M's student profile runs lower: 4.50 at the 75th, 4.30 at the 50th and a 4.08 at the bottom 25th.
UVA also beats W&M wiht ACT scores, the 74th/50th/30th percentiles are 35/34/32 for UVA and for W&M the ACTSare 34/33/31
At the 75th percentile, SAT score/GPA is 1520/4.50 at W&M and 1510/4.52 at UVA. Virtually the same. The difference in the last couple of years has been at the lower half, with UVA higher. It used to be the opposite if you look at SCHEV historical data. When W&M had higher average SAT scores than UVA, I did not think UVA is in decline. I just think there are trends that play out over some period of time and then new trends emerge. W&M needs to get more applicants to better fill out the bottom half stats.
In USNEWS rankings, both UVA and W&M have been hurt by the inclusion of the social mobility metrics based on Pell Grant recipients. Both schools are relatively low in percentage of students receiving Pell Grants particularly compared to schools in other states like the UC universities. Outside of that, the big movers in USNWR in my recollection have been private universities (Chicago, Vanderbilt, Northeastern, etc.) They seem to have more levers to pull in rankings than public schools.
They are not virtually the same. UVA is higher in 8 categories than W&M. Also you conveniently didn't address the ACT issue. ACT scores get exponentially more difficult to get closer to the top of the pyramid. A 36 is achieved by only 3,655 - 4,4,044 (changes every year) of the 1.6M taking the test, or .313% of the students taking it. A 35 is only 11,983 students .925% of test applicants nationwide. The fact that the 75th percentile of enrolled student at UVA has a 35 or better is astounding. W&M can boast only a 34 taps into a different level below. Here's the chart
ACT Score # of Students Percentage of All Test Takers
36 4,055 0.313%
35 11,983 0.925%
34 15,875 1.226%
33 18,424 1.422%
Keep in mind that only about 20% of students at UVA submit the ACT (vs 50% for SAT) . So 25% of that number scoring 35 or higher (75th percentile) could be as few as 210 students (out of the 16,000 or so nationally) for Fall 2021 class.
2021 is light years ago in the college admissions wars.
What is happening in the Ukraine is a war.
Jesus Christ.
They are both minor skirmishes compared to the War on Christmas.
DP. Really? People are being slaughtered in Ukraine and this is yiur response?
Anonymous
04/08/2022 15:08
Subject: Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Someone brought up peer reputation on USNews and I thought I would repost this.
4.9 Harvard MIT Stanford
4.8 Princeton Yale
4.7 Columbia JHU Berkeley
4.6 UChicago Penn Caltech Cornell
4.5 Duke Michigan
4.4 Northwestern Brown Dartmouth UCLA
4.3 Vanderbilt Carnegie Mellon UVA(!)
4.2 Wash U Emory Notre Dame Georgetown
4.1 Rice
The above listing represents the true top universities in this country.
For what?
Anonymous
04/08/2022 14:22
Subject: Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Someone brought up peer reputation on USNews and I thought I would repost this.
4.9 Harvard MIT Stanford
4.8 Princeton Yale
4.7 Columbia JHU Berkeley
4.6 UChicago Penn Caltech Cornell
4.5 Duke Michigan
4.4 Northwestern Brown Dartmouth UCLA
4.3 Vanderbilt Carnegie Mellon UVA(!)
4.2 Wash U Emory Notre Dame Georgetown
4.1 Rice
The above listing represents the true top universities in this country.
Anonymous
04/08/2022 13:54
Subject: Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Someone brought up peer reputation on USNews and I thought I would repost this.
4.9 Harvard MIT Stanford
4.8 Princeton Yale
4.7 Columbia JHU Berkeley
4.6 UChicago Penn Caltech Cornell
4.5 Duke Michigan
4.4 Northwestern Brown Dartmouth UCLA
4.3 Vanderbilt Carnegie Mellon UVA(!)
4.2 Wash U Emory Notre Dame Georgetown
4.1 Rice
This list is incomplete or selective. Georgia Tech is 4.3, UNC is 4.2, UT Austin is 4.1, etc.
Those aren't top 25 schools but yes you're right.
Anonymous
04/08/2022 13:26
Subject: Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:Someone brought up peer reputation on USNews and I thought I would repost this.
4.9 Harvard MIT Stanford
4.8 Princeton Yale
4.7 Columbia JHU Berkeley
4.6 UChicago Penn Caltech Cornell
4.5 Duke Michigan
4.4 Northwestern Brown Dartmouth UCLA
4.3 Vanderbilt Carnegie Mellon UVA(!)
4.2 Wash U Emory Notre Dame Georgetown
4.1 Rice
This list is incomplete or selective. Georgia Tech is 4.3, UNC is 4.2, UT Austin is 4.1, etc.
Anonymous
04/08/2022 10:56
Subject: Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Someone brought up peer reputation on USNews and I thought I would repost this.
4.9 Harvard MIT Stanford
4.8 Princeton Yale
4.7 Columbia JHU Berkeley
4.6 UChicago Penn Caltech Cornell
4.5 Duke Michigan
4.4 Northwestern Brown Dartmouth UCLA
4.3 Vanderbilt Carnegie Mellon UVA(!)
4.2 Wash U Emory Notre Dame Georgetown
4.1 Rice
Public schools get a bump, likely due to research.
The public schools on this list are routinely among the best in the country/world. The only reason they don't make the top USNWR lists is because the USNWR rating system that favors metrics for private schools.
It certainly isn't all research because schools like UCSD and Washington would be higher. Those world university rankings tend to be more about research and publications, so you see a number of these schools drop down considerably. USNWR has favored inputs like resources, and that tends to favor private schools, schools with medical schools or some other big funding source. I think UCLA has managed to claw its way ahead of Berkeley in the rankings is largely due to having a medical school, which probably has nothing to do with undergraduate education. Berkeley does not have a medical school and USNWR ranks UCLA well ahead of Berkeley on resources. If you compare them more directly, though, UCLA does not have better faculty, faculty pay, library resources, rankings in fields, alumni earnings, etc. It is just a shell game played with resources from the medical school for USNWR.
Anonymous
04/08/2022 10:54
Subject: Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?
Dartmouth and Georgetown