Anonymous
02/02/2022 19:39
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.
Jews who converted to Christianity were still murdered. It was not about religion.
Many were actually saved — by Polish Catholics, while risking their own lives.
This is true. But the opposite is also true. Polish Catholics as a group have a very mixed legacy of behavior toward Jews during (as well as before) the Holocaust. Both extremes were very well represented. People, individually and in groups, are complicated. It isn't something the present Polish government can handle, this complicated legacy, and I wonder if your repeated posts here suggest you are part of their ongoing sanitizing effort.
Either way, this is not so relevant to this thread.
Unless you mean to point out that Polish Catholics have never understood their Jewish neighbors as Poles, "white people" or no. That's kind of relevant.
Anonymous
02/02/2022 19:35
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.
Jews who converted to Christianity were still murdered. It was not about religion.
Many were actually saved — by Polish Catholics, while risking their own lives.
Many were saved who didn't convert. Many were saved by people who weren't Polish Catholics.
If you're the descendent of Polish Catholics who risked their lives to save Jews from the Holocaust, that is great, but it has nothing to do with anything that's being discussed here.
The point is many Jews were saved by Christians, as a counterpoint to “Jews who converted to Christianity were still murdered.”
The German Nazi were evil. And the German people quietly obeyed their evil politicians, without voicing their questions and concerns. Imagine that.
Anonymous
02/02/2022 19:31
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:So someone gets suspended for sparking a healthy conversation on a confusing topic, which is exactly what the show is supposed to be about.
The irony of it all is that our cancel culture fuels the type of hate that causes horrific events like the holocaust. It just causes people to rebel.
The emerging consensus in the Jewish community is that her suspension was unnecessary and unhelpful. Her comments weren't malicious and we do need to be able to talk about the ways that the paradigms for racism and "privilege" prevalent in American discourse today sound a bit like classic antisemitism. This should be a conversation starter rather than a "Whoopi shut up" moment.
This was an especially helpful paragraph from the Post article recently shared by a PP:
"Both sets of comments — first on her show, and later on Colbert’s — reflect a disturbing ideology that is growing increasingly rampant: a concerted effort to rewrite the history of the Jewish people and render the nature of antisemitism as nebulous and as nonspecific to Jews as possible. It’s an ideology that tries to turn Jews into White people, that tries to erase Jewish vulnerability and oppression, to squeeze Jews who have light skin into modern American categories of race and ethnicity, and which also myopically categorizes the hatred against them into American considerations of what racism looks like. But Jews predate these categories (and America, as a nation) by thousands of years."
I hope folks read the article. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/02/02/whoopi-goldberg-holocaust-race/
Anonymous
02/02/2022 19:21
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.
Jews who converted to Christianity were still murdered. It was not about religion.
Many were actually saved — by Polish Catholics, while risking their own lives.
Many were saved who didn't convert. Many were saved by people who weren't Polish Catholics.
If you're the descendent of Polish Catholics who risked their lives to save Jews from the Holocaust, that is great, but it has nothing to do with anything that's being discussed here.
Anonymous
02/02/2022 19:15
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.
Jews who converted to Christianity were still murdered. It was not about religion.
Many were actually saved — by Polish Catholics, while risking their own lives.
Anonymous
02/02/2022 19:14
Subject: Re:Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:For those who really want to understand and learn - I thought this op-Ed does a really good job:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/02/02/whoopi-goldberg-holocaust-race/
“Whoopi Goldberg isn’t the only one who doesn’t understand antisemitism Of course the Holocaust was about race. But it’s no longer surprising that there’s some dispute about that.”
Thank you for posting this article.
Anonymous
02/02/2022 19:11
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.
Jews who converted to Christianity were still murdered. It was not about religion.
Any idea how many Polish Catholics saved Jews, while risking their own lives?
No, but it is entirely irrelevant to this conversation.
Anonymous
02/02/2022 19:10
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Jews are white, unless they’re black jews like in some areas of Africa (Ethiopia has a large community I think?). But Jews are not a race, they’re an ethnicity. Hitler thought they were a race— and an inferior one—that needed to be eliminated.
No, it is far more complex than this. You're leaving out Sephardic and Mizrachi Jews, who are brown. There are Jews from Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, Egypt. My grandparents immigrated from Belarus and Poland. (They spoke no Russian or Polish and were not considered Russian or Polish by Russians and Poles). Prior to arriving in Eastern Europe, they were in Spain, and prior to that, in North Africa. However, due to proximity or laziness or other motives, I am considered a "white" Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe.
Anonymous
02/02/2022 18:59
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.
Jews who converted to Christianity were still murdered. It was not about religion.
Any idea how many Polish Catholics saved Jews, while risking their own lives?
Anonymous
02/02/2022 18:58
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.
A master Aryan race with blonde hair and certain features which were opposite of traditional Jewish features.
Hitler wasn’t religious. The holocaust wasn’t a religious crusade.
Much like modern times, an evil person thirsty for power manipulated the masses by othering an easily identifiable minority group.
Again seriously asking…aside from Hitler’s goal, why are the Jewish features considered not white? Or rather is there something wrong with those features being put in the same box with white people? Do Jews not want to be in the same box as white people? I seriously don’t know and I have asked these questions before on DCUM and got shut down. I have googled a lot of this and gave up because it was indeed a rabbit hole that I couldn’t commit to.
I mean clearly most white people think it’s great to be white, and in most cases it it, and they (white people) absolutely, positively, would never ever want to be anything but white. I’m black, but would never, ever want to be white, but if I could PASS for white, to get the privilege that being white sometimes hands you….hmmm maybe.
So again, because I don’t personally know many people that have identified themselves to me as Jewish, I don’t really clearly identify Jewish features. I mean see Jewish celebrities on TV and have heard people talk about “Jew fro” but that’s it. I know I must sound terribly ignorant on this, but I also don’t think this mindset would be out of the ordinary for African Americans educated in the south in 70’s about Jewish people.
Nazis CAN identify Jews, or at least a great many of them. If you go on white supremacist websites, there are detailed descriptions and instructions on how to identify Jews based on certain facial features. I'm Jewish and can usually identify Jews as well. It is not a matter of frizzy hair and hooked noses; it can be far more subtle. "White" Jews also have a specific tone to their skin. When I was a child, the mean girls at school called me "green". Anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists refer to Jews as "reptilian" for a reason.
I can't speak for all "white" Jews, but no, I do not want to be white. I am white to most people, and I do benefit from white privilege. I do not want to be white simply because I am tired of being defined by others based on what will best justify their hatred. For a long time, people --not just Nazis-- saw Jews as non-white, and that was one of many ways they justified their Anti-Semitism. Now, people define Jews as white because whites are privileged oppressors. So when I fill out forms I usually tick off "other" and write in "Jewish".
Anonymous
02/02/2022 18:53
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous
02/02/2022 18:53
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think Whoopigate is highlighting a number of tensions in our current divisive time where many people feel like certain groups/issues must compete for “who has it the worst.”
We’re getting bogged down in purist definitions of race precisely because some don’t want to equate antisemitism with racism…as if one is worse than the other.
Guess what? They are both equally bad.
Saying Judaism is just a religion like Catholicism, etc. really misses the mark. Most Jews are born into not only the faith, but a Jewish culture that includes a language, foods, and a way of life. Muslims should understand.
While anyone can convert, that’s not the same as being born into a Jewish family.
I was born into a Jewish family. Not at all genetically Jewish. Not one person would know.
I’m not sure what you mean. Do you mean you don’t look Jewish? Or, your Jewish parents converted or someone along the family tree converted and you don’t have any genetic Jewish heritage?
FTR, my comments aimed to highlight that for most Jewish people, it’s not just a religion. Rather, Judaism comes with a language, food, clothing, and other cultural elements that Christian religions simply don’t have.
I don’t think Judaism is a race per se. But there certainly is a robust cultural and identity element that Christian religions don’t have.
I stand by my original comment that the 2022 divisive nature of most people who are quick to argue and compelled to point out that nothing is as bad as racism is driving some of this. Whoopi herself succeeded at minimizing or at the very least missing the mark when it comes to not only holocaust but also the antisemitism that still exists today.
I agree. It has a name: identity politics.
So when will the radical left decide to back the f**k off with their identity politics?
Enough already!
Anonymous
02/02/2022 18:40
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think Whoopigate is highlighting a number of tensions in our current divisive time where many people feel like certain groups/issues must compete for “who has it the worst.”
We’re getting bogged down in purist definitions of race precisely because some don’t want to equate antisemitism with racism…as if one is worse than the other.
Guess what? They are both equally bad.
Saying Judaism is just a religion like Catholicism, etc. really misses the mark. Most Jews are born into not only the faith, but a Jewish culture that includes a language, foods, and a way of life. Muslims should understand.
While anyone can convert, that’s not the same as being born into a Jewish family.
I was born into a Jewish family. Not at all genetically Jewish. Not one person would know.
I’m not sure what you mean. Do you mean you don’t look Jewish? Or, your Jewish parents converted or someone along the family tree converted and you don’t have any genetic Jewish heritage?
FTR, my comments aimed to highlight that for most Jewish people, it’s not just a religion. Rather, Judaism comes with a language, food, clothing, and other cultural elements that Christian religions simply don’t have.
I don’t think Judaism is a race per se. But there certainly is a robust cultural and identity element that Christian religions don’t have.
I stand by my original comment that the 2022 divisive nature of most people who are quick to argue and compelled to point out that nothing is as bad as racism is driving some of this. Whoopi herself succeeded at minimizing or at the very least missing the mark when it comes to not only holocaust but also the antisemitism that still exists today.
Anonymous
02/02/2022 18:36
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.
Jews who converted to Christianity were still murdered. It was not about religion.
Anonymous
02/02/2022 18:07
Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:I think Whoopigate is highlighting a number of tensions in our current divisive time where many people feel like certain groups/issues must compete for “who has it the worst.”
We’re getting bogged down in purist definitions of race precisely because some don’t want to equate antisemitism with racism…as if one is worse than the other.
Guess what? They are both equally bad.
Saying Judaism is just a religion like Catholicism, etc. really misses the mark. Most Jews are born into not only the faith, but a Jewish culture that includes a language, foods, and a way of life. Muslims should understand.
While anyone can convert, that’s not the same as being born into a Jewish family.
I was born into a Jewish family. Not at all genetically Jewish. Not one person would know.