Jen is a worker. I’m not even going to say building a social media empire isn’t real work cause it takes a whole lot of engagement. She has all these moving parts she has to keep on top of daily. I applaud her ability to keep building her business in the midst of a horrific divorce. I just wish she did more creating and less shilling. Then again I’m not sure I could resist the lure of big bucks flowing in for simply putting a quick blurb up on the internet.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is an irony in a woman creating a me course on how to deconstruct then reconstruct one’s faith when she has devolved into a shilling machine completely disconnected from any genuine accountability.

There is. Can’t stand the constant selling. But I’ll admit that part of me has some sympathy for the fact that Brandon probably financially ruined them. The ‘in the know’ folks who have pointed to a gambling problem (along with the cheating and drinking) would explain why the constant shilling ratcheted way up right around the time of the divorce. Multiple kids in college and a couple more to send I bet those bills were calling… I still think it’s gross. But in the panic of the moment I bet some financial agreements were made…

I would have more sympathy if they both went to work - and I mean REAL WORK - to get back on the right track. As it is, we see them both taking extravagant vacations and living the good life when we have seen nothing from either of them of much value since Jen released her Fierce book at the beginning of the pandemic. (And I say that has value because I know she put a lot of actual work into that book, regardless of if it's actually good or not). Then you have Jen encouraging people to go to some $20k per week resort in Tennesee and taking ME camp trips for a month, etc and it makes me sick. She KNOWS people can't do this. People are struggling to make ends meet. Even those of us with full-time actual jobs - whose income can't keep up with inflation. Then she wants us to buy things through her social media so she can make MORE money off our backs. No, thanks. So disappointing and infuriating to me.

So, to both of them, get back to me when you actually humble yourselves to do some real work like the rest of us. I think it's a PRIDE thing - and neither of them were truly ready to give up their lifestyles - and are opportunists who found ways to make money off of other people's backs to save their own asses.

I think she put in a large amount of work to the cookbook too. While in shock, mourning and rebuilding. When she probably wanted to stay in bed and disappear.

Anonymous wrote:I think MLMs are absolutely terrible. There’s an instagrammer fatcarriebradshaw who does the best impersonations of women caught up in all of that.

The documentary on LuLaRoe called LuLaRich will turn you off them forever.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is an irony in a woman creating a me course on how to deconstruct then reconstruct one’s faith when she has devolved into a shilling machine completely disconnected from any genuine accountability.

There is. Can’t stand the constant selling. But I’ll admit that part of me has some sympathy for the fact that Brandon probably financially ruined them. The ‘in the know’ folks who have pointed to a gambling problem (along with the cheating and drinking) would explain why the constant shilling ratcheted way up right around the time of the divorce. Multiple kids in college and a couple more to send I bet those bills were calling… I still think it’s gross. But in the panic of the moment I bet some financial agreements were made…

I would have more sympathy if they both went to work - and I mean REAL WORK - to get back on the right track. As it is, we see them both taking extravagant vacations and living the good life when we have seen nothing from either of them of much value since Jen released her Fierce book at the beginning of the pandemic. (And I say that has value because I know she put a lot of actual work into that book, regardless of if it's actually good or not). Then you have Jen encouraging people to go to some $20k per week resort in Tennesee and taking ME camp trips for a month, etc and it makes me sick. She KNOWS people can't do this. People are struggling to make ends meet. Even those of us with full-time actual jobs - whose income can't keep up with inflation. Then she wants us to buy things through her social media so she can make MORE money off our backs. No, thanks. So disappointing and infuriating to me.

So, to both of them, get back to me when you actually humble yourselves to do some real work like the rest of us. I think it's a PRIDE thing - and neither of them were truly ready to give up their lifestyles - and are opportunists who found ways to make money off of other people's backs to save their own asses.

I think MLMs are absolutely terrible. There’s an instagrammer fatcarriebradshaw who does the best impersonations of women caught up in all of that.

The psychological manipulation of the false intimacy Jen creates is masterful. It’s like a spell I can barely resist. I’ve had several MLMs try to recruit me to sell their products. They all use this seductive, join my tribe, you’ll finally be seen and loved if you join tactics like Jen. I trust none of them now. There is no way to know if someone in the MLM world is seeking your friendship for you or your money making potential for them. I know MLM’s are different than influencers but it all feels very similar.

I work in marketing and PR and influencers are part of our marketing strategy. They make a lot of money. Payment is based not just on follower count but engagement rate and other metrics. You sit there and watch an entire reel that Jen posts? Like her posts? Comment? All of these things increase her engagement rate metrics. A lot of influencers have people who are negotiating the rate for them and the companies they’re working with usually have an agency working on their side to negotiate the rate. Based on Jen’s followers and the amount of sponsored posts she does, she could be earning millions from this a year. Even the micro-influencers I’ve worked with are making a lot of money. I asked one micro-influencer to hint at what she made and she said that she had a 9-5 job and that her influencer gig was considered her passive income because she only worked at it a few hours a month. She said she made $300,000 from it and was feeling comfortable enough with it to soon quit her 9-5.

Before I worked with influencers I used to regard them with disdain but now I love them. Most of them work really hard to represent the brand they’re selling and take the job seriously. I’ve done every single type of advertising possible from tv, radio, online, billboards blah blah and nothing has ever killed it like influencers. I used one micro-influencer to promote a place and the feedback was they had never in twenty years of business seen the kind of traffic they saw after her posts went up. They quadrupled sales from the same weekend the year prior and eventually sold out of stock. I see this across the board with influencers. People react and buy based on what they’re talking about like nothing I’ve ever seen before and I’ve been doing this a long time. Every big and medium sized company is working with influencers.

Regarding MLMs…I highly recommend a book called Cultish. It speaks to how companies use language to recruit people and it also talks about influencers. After you read it you’ll begin to notice how Jen will say things like Hello dear ones or Hello loves. That language is intentional and is her way of getting you to think you’re in her inner circle so you’ll buy what she’s selling.

Anonymous wrote:So is this Jen Hatmaker forum the longest one on DC Urban Mom?

Not even close.

So is this Jen Hatmaker forum the longest one on DC Urban Mom?

I see the Bible thumpers are taking over the thread. Jen leaving the church and finding her own spirituality is a huge step. Just wish she didn’t sell so much.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m also an upper middle class white woman who was perfectly content and comfy inside the walls of the evangelical church. The system worked for me and my friends (because it was built by people like us for people like us.)

But I also can recognize the severe cracks within the church and that saying the church was great leaves out a lot of people for whom the church wasn’t great. And the system was built by a really narrow view. Much like I’m an American who america has been great for, doesn’t preclude me from seeing how flawed america is for a lot of people.

Where Jen missteps is not acknowledging her status whilst she rails against the church and the system. Has she ever said “the only reason I have a platform is because the system promoted me?” I don’t think I’ve heard her say it.

She has no platform without the church the way it was designed.

I can see the deconstruction take but she has a huge blind spot that would actually legitimize her take if she was honest about it.

Even the gay affirming stance isn’t that wild. But her inability to acknowledge she had a very compelling reason to change her stance was bad. Instead of “hey this hit close to home so we had to rethink it,” she went all in on the “we’ve done all the research blah blah blah.”

All of these blind spots make her less believable and authentic. Be honest about your journey instead of these bold and long winded pronouncements.

Everything is just all in all the time.

This. I think what I'm struggling with is I see two different Jens. Because I'll be honest, I fall in the same place as her in a lot of my views of faith. I'm the parent of a transgender daughter and it is hard to find a church where she will be wholly welcomed. I understand her frustration with the church. I truly get where she's coming from. But yes, she also owes a lot to that same church for giving her a platform and somehow she needs to deal with that, both the good and the pain. But for the most part, I like that Jen.

And then she starts selling something. And I just roll my eyes and move along, because it feels like a completely different person. Not that anyone is all one thing or all another, but personality-wise she just feels DIFFERENT.

I'll also had that although I long for more inclusive churches, I am kind of appalled that they just said 'welp, we're affirming now, get with the program.' That should have been something hashed out over a lengthy period of conversations with leadership and members. You give your views, you show the biblical back-up, and you talk. And in the end, if the congregation says 'nope, we aren't there' you graciously move on. And I suppose I know why they didn't do it that way, because it HURTS when people you know vote against the people you love and instead of accepting that hurt themselves they foisted it off on other people by making a declaration. But that's not how church works. It isn't a corporation. The pastor isn't the CEO and the elders aren't the stockholders. The church exists for the membership and we don't get to just make a one-sided decision on something that is so huge. So yeah, that makes me sad for ANC that it was handled so poorly.

(Also, MLMs...don't even get me started. I don't think any of the things Jen is selling fall under that umbrella though. She's not trying to develop a downline. She just gets, I am sure, a straight cut from every sale that's made when people type in her special little promo code.)

She was selling a makeup brand a while back (can’t remember the name) that was definitely an MLM!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the cash crunch would have happened even without the divorce.

They Hatmakers aren’t on TV anymore and she’s not doing tours and her only book coming out is a cook book, it appears.

How much money could the book club and the podcast be bringing in?

Ads for a podcast with her size audience are bringing in BANK as are her social media collaborations. Not arguing about the possibility of difficult financial times… just weighing in as I work in social media and an account/following of her size is no joke when it comes to $$$

Can you throw some numbers out? She has ~550K Instagram followers.

Yes please - I have zero concept of how much podcasters make!

Yes! Happy to help… so anyone with an Instagram, Facebook and podcast following the size of Jen’s would be doing extremely well with paid posts/ads. But add in that she has a publicist to negotiate deals on her behalf and is extremely well at turning sales (see, there’s a difference between influencers who simply have a lot of followers and influencers like Jen whose followers will actually buy the products she’s selling). You can tell she’s profitable because a lot of her partnerships are ongoing rather than just one paid post. So between paid posts (that she never disclosed even though it’s illegal!), commission on purchases her followers make from those paid posts, and podcast ads she’s probably bringing in around $500,000. Plus lots of comped experiences- travel, meals, event tickets. This says nothing to whatever financial mess she may be in, but she’s bringing in a lot. Imagine if she still had her speaking gigs!

Anonymous wrote:I’m also an upper middle class white woman who was perfectly content and comfy inside the walls of the evangelical church. The system worked for me and my friends (because it was built by people like us for people like us.)

But I also can recognize the severe cracks within the church and that saying the church was great leaves out a lot of people for whom the church wasn’t great. And the system was built by a really narrow view. Much like I’m an American who america has been great for, doesn’t preclude me from seeing how flawed america is for a lot of people.

Where Jen missteps is not acknowledging her status whilst she rails against the church and the system. Has she ever said “the only reason I have a platform is because the system promoted me?” I don’t think I’ve heard her say it.

She has no platform without the church the way it was designed.

I can see the deconstruction take but she has a huge blind spot that would actually legitimize her take if she was honest about it.

Even the gay affirming stance isn’t that wild. But her inability to acknowledge she had a very compelling reason to change her stance was bad. Instead of “hey this hit close to home so we had to rethink it,” she went all in on the “we’ve done all the research blah blah blah.”

All of these blind spots make her less believable and authentic. Be honest about your journey instead of these bold and long winded pronouncements.

Everything is just all in all the time.

This. I think what I'm struggling with is I see two different Jens. Because I'll be honest, I fall in the same place as her in a lot of my views of faith. I'm the parent of a transgender daughter and it is hard to find a church where she will be wholly welcomed. I understand her frustration with the church. I truly get where she's coming from. But yes, she also owes a lot to that same church for giving her a platform and somehow she needs to deal with that, both the good and the pain. But for the most part, I like that Jen.

And then she starts selling something. And I just roll my eyes and move along, because it feels like a completely different person. Not that anyone is all one thing or all another, but personality-wise she just feels DIFFERENT.

I'll also had that although I long for more inclusive churches, I am kind of appalled that they just said 'welp, we're affirming now, get with the program.' That should have been something hashed out over a lengthy period of conversations with leadership and members. You give your views, you show the biblical back-up, and you talk. And in the end, if the congregation says 'nope, we aren't there' you graciously move on. And I suppose I know why they didn't do it that way, because it HURTS when people you know vote against the people you love and instead of accepting that hurt themselves they foisted it off on other people by making a declaration. But that's not how church works. It isn't a corporation. The pastor isn't the CEO and the elders aren't the stockholders. The church exists for the membership and we don't get to just make a one-sided decision on something that is so huge. So yeah, that makes me sad for ANC that it was handled so poorly.

(Also, MLMs...don't even get me started. I don't think any of the things Jen is selling fall under that umbrella though. She's not trying to develop a downline. She just gets, I am sure, a straight cut from every sale that's made when people type in her special little promo code.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the cash crunch would have happened even without the divorce.

They Hatmakers aren’t on TV anymore and she’s not doing tours and her only book coming out is a cook book, it appears.

How much money could the book club and the podcast be bringing in?

Ads for a podcast with her size audience are bringing in BANK as are her social media collaborations. Not arguing about the possibility of difficult financial times… just weighing in as I work in social media and an account/following of her size is no joke when it comes to $$$

Can you throw some numbers out? She has ~550K Instagram followers.

Yes please - I have zero concept of how much podcasters make!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At first there was a full force rejection of Brandon and an alignment with Jen after the “bombshell.” But it appears all but Sidney have reconciled with their dad now. His motorcycle club also kept him close throughout.

It takes a lot of skill to build a church from the ground up in a new city to several hundred members at its height. Brandon was at the head of that project so I don’t think it’s honest to say he has no skills. There is both leadership(perhaps flawed) and organizational aptitude Brandon has shown over and over. He got the legacy collective up and running. Sure we strongly suspect inappropriate use of funds at his discretion but it was built on his watch.
Whoever hired him to sell the Texas ranches chose well if you want a guy who tries real hard to look Texan and has a natural ability to win people over to a vision. He is manly and at ease with himself, it’s a nice combo for selling luxury ranches.

I’m not pro or con Brandon or Jen but I will honor they are builders. They’ve created a whole lot of something out of nothing over the years. I grieve at how broken and lost they’ve become but I still hold out hope they will have an encounter with the living God that rights their many wrongs. Their story is still being written.

Except as many exANC’ers have testified here, they actually did very little of the work. It was other people who did most of it. Brandon did some. Jen did very little. 4-5 other families organized & ran that church and when they and the other 3/4 left, it crumbled to the pitiful little mess it is today.

ANC didn’t fail cause jen & Brandon left. They were of minor import.
It failed cause they ran off all the good families.
Well that and Jason Morriss.