Anonymous wrote:The problem for younger kids is how do you define "ability"?

I've got a small kid whose technical skills were outstanding when he was younger (still are). Every single coach said so. You know how he got that way? Working on his own all the time - after practice, with friends, against the stairs at home, against walls. Still, despite working hard, he often sat on the bench while the big fast kids who were always late for practice and games played every second. Who was "better"? Well, the other kids were definitely stronger and faster. But my kids was smarter, more technical, and harder working. Didn't matter. Why should a small player have to work that harder on his own to get in a game when that that kid with no touch just kicks and runs past players to score and is never told work work harder to get more playing time? Many of the small kids or slow kids on travel teams are working hard on their own. Plenty of kids who are hard working, talented, coachable, and skilled sit in favor of more athletically advanced players . This happens at every club. Smaller, slower, and less athletic kids need the playing time to figure out how to be effective despite their lack of physical gifts or late puberty. But when playing time is a reward for the fastest to grow and develop, the late developers are further disadvantaged.

The "work harder" message makes more sense at U15/U16, but it is often too late by then for late for the bench kids. The late bloomers who rise to the top are those with the toughest mindset and those who found ways to get playing time in regardless, like those who found free play opportunities.

Whatever you think the goal of travel soccer should be, I can attest from personal experience that telling your kids to work harder but allowing them to stay in an environment where playing time is not based on hard work, effort, or even ability can backfire and lead to a kid who checks out in areas other than soccer. We all need to understand that life is not fair, but there is no benefit from an experience that teaches kids that working hard gets you nowhere if you haven't hit puberty by 7th or 8th grade. You can say that "cream rises" but the goal shouldn't be to drive as many late developing kids out as possible.

You move your kid to where they will play. You’re driving your own kid out of the game by keeping them in a situation that does not benefit their development.

Now you either believe in his talent and in the training with bigger and faster kids who can push him to improve, yet sacrifice game minutes or you can move him to a team that either appreciates his game while offering appropriate challenge and playing time.

You are only a victim if you choose to be a victim.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually most of those you posted support the position that playing time, particularly at younger ages, 9 and 10, in this discussion is NOT based on ability but rather on things like attitude and punctuality and effort in practice. All good things. I’m looking for something in support of playing time being based on trying to win a game at 9 or 10. I don’t see any that say anything like, “winning is important”.

Actually any club, if you ask them about 9 and 10, they call those developmental years, and not "building wins" years, even the big mega clubs.

Winning has not been mentioned by me or has it been stated in any of the clubs position on playing time.

The simple take aways regarding playing time for travel soccer are:

1. Playing time is earned and not entitled.
2. 50% is a expected minimum.
3. All intangibles being equal, talent can expect to play more.

That is it. Nothing says, minutes of playing to hold a lead, minutes for tournaments. Nothing but based on where any particular player fits within the team and the scheme of developing.

At U9 and U10 kids are picked just as much on potential as on observable skills. Sometimes coaches place a kid in a wrong team. Kids change a lot and can even change a lot at 8 years old from a spring tryout to the first late summer practice.

Find the best level for your kid and stop with this nonsense.

Anonymous wrote:The problem for younger kids is how do you define "ability"?

I've got a small kid whose technical skills were outstanding when he was younger (still are). Every single coach said so. You know how he got that way? Working on his own all the time - after practice, with friends, against the stairs at home, against walls. Still, despite working hard, he often sat on the bench while the big fast kids who were always late for practice and games played every second. Who was "better"? Well, the other kids were definitely stronger and faster. But my kids was smarter, more technical, and harder working. Didn't matter. Why should a small player have to work that harder on his own to get in a game when that that kid with no touch just kicks and runs past players to score and is never told work work harder to get more playing time? Many of the small kids or slow kids on travel teams are working hard on their own. Plenty of kids who are hard working, talented, coachable, and skilled sit in favor of more athletically advanced players . This happens at every club. Smaller, slower, and less athletic kids need the playing time to figure out how to be effective despite their lack of physical gifts or late puberty. But when playing time is a reward for the fastest to grow and develop, the late developers are further disadvantaged.

The "work harder" message makes more sense at U15/U16, but it is often too late by then for late for the bench kids. The late bloomers who rise to the top are those with the toughest mindset and those who found ways to get playing time in regardless, like those who found free play opportunities.

Whatever you think the goal of travel soccer should be, I can attest from personal experience that telling your kids to work harder but allowing them to stay in an environment where playing time is not based on hard work, effort, or even ability can backfire and lead to a kid who checks out in areas other than soccer. We all need to understand that life is not fair, but there is no benefit from an experience that teaches kids that working hard gets you nowhere if you haven't hit puberty by 7th or 8th grade. You can say that "cream rises" but the goal shouldn't be to drive as many late developing kids out as possible.

This.

The problem for younger kids is how do you define "ability"?

I've got a small kid whose technical skills were outstanding when he was younger (still are). Every single coach said so. You know how he got that way? Working on his own all the time - after practice, with friends, against the stairs at home, against walls. Still, despite working hard, he often sat on the bench while the big fast kids who were always late for practice and games played every second. Who was "better"? Well, the other kids were definitely stronger and faster. But my kids was smarter, more technical, and harder working. Didn't matter. Why should a small player have to work that harder on his own to get in a game when that that kid with no touch just kicks and runs past players to score and is never told work work harder to get more playing time? Many of the small kids or slow kids on travel teams are working hard on their own. Plenty of kids who are hard working, talented, coachable, and skilled sit in favor of more athletically advanced players . This happens at every club. Smaller, slower, and less athletic kids need the playing time to figure out how to be effective despite their lack of physical gifts or late puberty. But when playing time is a reward for the fastest to grow and develop, the late developers are further disadvantaged.

The "work harder" message makes more sense at U15/U16, but it is often too late by then for late for the bench kids. The late bloomers who rise to the top are those with the toughest mindset and those who found ways to get playing time in regardless, like those who found free play opportunities.

Whatever you think the goal of travel soccer should be, I can attest from personal experience that telling your kids to work harder but allowing them to stay in an environment where playing time is not based on hard work, effort, or even ability can backfire and lead to a kid who checks out in areas other than soccer. We all need to understand that life is not fair, but there is no benefit from an experience that teaches kids that working hard gets you nowhere if you haven't hit puberty by 7th or 8th grade. You can say that "cream rises" but the goal shouldn't be to drive as many late developing kids out as possible.

Anonymous wrote:Actually most of those you posted support the position that playing time, particularly at younger ages, 9 and 10, in this discussion is NOT based on ability but rather on things like attitude and punctuality and effort in practice. All good things. I’m looking for something in support of playing time being based on trying to win a game at 9 or 10. I don’t see any that say anything like, “winning is important”.

Actually any club, if you ask them about 9 and 10, they call those developmental years, and not "building wins" years, even the big mega clubs.

Anonymous wrote:Actually most of those you posted support the position that playing time, particularly at younger ages, 9 and 10, in this discussion is NOT based on ability but rather on things like attitude and punctuality and effort in practice. All good things. I’m looking for something in support of playing time being based on trying to win a game at 9 or 10. I don’t see any that say anything like, “winning is important”.

A majority of the clubs make no guarantee of playing time and those that do only set the bar at 50% of playing time as minimum.

End of story, the OP is getting the "industry standard" minimum of playing time in travel soccer. As has been stated many times before, any more than that is earned. It is up to the coaches discretion to determine what "earned" means and to communicate that to the team.

At the end of the day this is a discussion best left between the OP and their coach. The OP's kid is admittedly at the bottom 1/4 of the roster by the parents own admission. The best course of action is to work with he coach to develop a plan to improve the players shortcomings. Providing the player with 5 more minutes a game in the long run will not improve those weaknesses. If the coach is approached one could expect a simple homework plan can be provided that the player can work on at home and before or after practice on their own.

Club practice is 4.5 hours a week. Five extra minutes of game time will not be as developmentally impactful as 5-10 minutes a day extra working on technical skills.

You can go round and round to try and rationalize equal playing time in spite of merit all you want but whether it is this year, next year or 4 years from now no club policy is going to bail this kid out if the kid does not actually work away from the game and take ownership of their own development. Showing up with a smile and a can do attitude will not be enough to stay in the game. Those traits will get you on a team but only hard work, honest self assessment and a desire to improve will earn playing time.

And then on top of it is simple ability. Ability is not equal. Cream rises. There are going to kids who are better and in turn the kid will be better than other players. Find your level and enjoy. Don't try and bend the level to you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually most of those you posted support the position that playing time, particularly at younger ages, 9 and 10, in this discussion is NOT based on ability but rather on things like attitude and punctuality and effort in practice. All good things. I’m looking for something in support of playing time being based on trying to win a game at 9 or 10. I don’t see any that say anything like, “winning is important”.

Yeah, at 9, it makes sense that it would be about work ethic.

So when it’s a good age to teach work ethics? I taught my DD at 9. It wasn’t only about soccer but school work too.

That’s a lot of good research from a variety of clubs.

When my DD was playing select soccer, I was frustrated when the non-focused, uninterested and/or frequently late or don’t show up to practices kids were getting equal playing time due to the rules. So I understand.

At the same time, I understand why some parents are irritated that their kids don’t get equal playing time on travel soccer even though they all pay the same amount. But as always, an educated buyer is the best buyer. Hence, you need to check with your club before committing/paying for your DC.

Anonymous wrote:Actually most of those you posted support the position that playing time, particularly at younger ages, 9 and 10, in this discussion is NOT based on ability but rather on things like attitude and punctuality and effort in practice. All good things. I’m looking for something in support of playing time being based on trying to win a game at 9 or 10. I don’t see any that say anything like, “winning is important”.

Yeah, at 9, it makes sense that it would be about work ethic.

Actually most of those you posted support the position that playing time, particularly at younger ages, 9 and 10, in this discussion is NOT based on ability but rather on things like attitude and punctuality and effort in practice. All good things. I’m looking for something in support of playing time being based on trying to win a game at 9 or 10. I don’t see any that say anything like, “winning is important”.

The amount of playing time players will receive during games will be based on game performance, determination in practice, punctuality and attitude.
https://www.sacysl.com/page/show/468569-player-parent-and-coach-expectations




Life Lessons: Determining Playing Time for Your Team:
Now let's add the holistic truths:

• At some developmental stage, players begin to understand the idea of being a good teammate (ref: moral reasoning Kholberg)
• Around the same time, they begin to understand the essence of how a team grows best – with the full commitment and support of all its members.
• Youth players do not drive and most cannot dictate the behavior of their parents.
• If you're truly a life skills type of coach, rewarding certain attitudes and behaviors with playing time may not be the most developmental thing to do.
• At a certain point, it helps with personal development if I understand that my playing time is a consequence of my effort, my attitude and my desire to help others.
http://www.enysoccer.com/life_lessons_determining_playing_time_for_your_team/


EXPECTATIONS OF PLAYERS:

A. Accept seriously the responsibility and privilege of representing Medfield Youth Soccer: display positive public action at all times.
B. Demonstrate respect for opponents, coaches and referees before, during and after games.
C. Live up to high standards of sportsmanship.
D. Treat opponents with respect: shake hands after games and take a knee quickly when they are injured. Clap when they leave the field.
E. Respect judgment of referees, abide by rules of the games and display no behavior that could incite fans (ex. questioning calls, gestures, taunting, "show-boating" etc).
F. Cooperate with referees, coaches and fellow participants to conduct a fair game.
G. Accept favorable and unfavorable decisions, as well as victory and defeat, with equal grace.
H. Come prepared each week to practice (ball, water, shin guards and cleats) and understand that there will be ramifications for disruptive behavior- whether in practice or a game (ex. reduced playing time, sitting out practice, etc).
https://medfieldsoccer.org/expectations-players-parents



Play all players at least 50% of the game
In order for players to develop, they need more touches on the ball. To get more touches on the ball, they need more time in the game. All players must play at least ½ of the game. The only exceptions to this are because of:
Illness or injury to player during the game

Disciplinary action on the part of the referee (i.e., red card)

Player needs to leave the soccer game early for personal reasons
https://www.piscatawaysoccer.org/Default.aspx?tabid=601757



PLAYING TIME

Except for scrimmages, there is no guaranteed amount of playing time for competitive league games. The policy of the club is that playing time is a privilege that is earned and not given as of right. Players are competing at all times for starting positions and playing time. There are many factors that can affect the amount of playing time for a particular player. Players must earn their positions by coming to practice, training hard, and displaying an attitude of commitment to their individual development.
http://www.shoresfutbol.com/about/policies-and-procedures



Playing Time
Playing time in games is a necessary part of the development of each player. At the
same time, it is important to understand that Capital FC player membership does not
guarantee equal play or specific position.
The player’s playing time and position on the field will be determined by the coaching
staff and decisions will be made in consideration of what is best for both the team and
the individual.
https://www.capitalfctimbers.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2017-18-Parent-Player-Handbook.pdf

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually lawsuits by youth sport clubs are fairly common over internet posts. Often there is an attorney in the club willing to take a matter on. Clubs work hard to maintain good reputations. No one should ever support someone making a libilous statement about a club. True statements are obviously welcome. Opinion statements are not libel.

So, at the end of the day you believe it would be better to sue a club for playing a kid the suggested minimum for even a recreation level than have the kid play wall ball, juggle or practice skill moves for ten minutes a day in order to become a better player?

That is odd. Where did you get that from?

It’s really simple. Don’t post on a website that club X’s position is XYZ if you don’t know what Club X’s position is on that subject. If you know the Club’s position then stating it is fine. If you have an opinion on the Club’s position and state that it is your view, then that too is fine as opinions are not libilous speech. (There are limitations there as well though.)

The following are taken from a variety of soccer clubs regarding playing time in travel. Please read and then go away:

How does travel soccer differ from the regular house or recreation soccer league?

SYC soccer travel teams are competitive. Therefore, making the roster, and staying on the roster, must be earned based on the team member’s play. In the house or recreation soccer league, all players are placed on a team roster regardless of playing ability. Recreation soccer also has unique requirements to encourage participation by all players such as all players must play 1/2 of each game. Travel soccer playing time is based on the team’s needs and is at the coach’s discretion
https://www.sycva.com/page/show/477110-a-parents-guide-to-travel-soccer


8. How much will my child play?

Answer: The League and Amherst Soccer have a rule that “every child who plays on a team will play 50% at age 8-12”. Sometimes this is difficult to assess and control at each game but, should be equalized over the season. Additionally, each child should play a variety of positions on the field. If your child is only playing one position or not enough, you have an obligation to ask the coach why and contact the Travel Coordinator. The best defender at 10 years old could be the best forward at 15 and the best player at 10 is many times not the best at 15 due to growth and development differences. Coaches are encouraged to train the total player and not focus all of their attention on winning. After age 12, more specialization will begin although the coaches are encouraged to play the kids at more than one position. You will see the players themselves starting to determine where they feel the most comfortable by 14. ASA has changed coaches in the past for failure to adhere to the 50% rule. Older players will receive more or less playing time based upon the discretion of the coach. Factors that affect time include: attendance, attitude, effort, and ability. ASA coaches at U14-19 make every effort to be fair to all players.
http://www.amherstsoccer.com/travel-program/q-amp-a-about-travel-soccer


PLAYING TIME AND FIELD POSITIONS… There are NO playing time guarantees but each
player will get some playing time… Coaches decide what player will play in what position, but they are
encouraged to give players the chance to play different positions.
http://thundersoccerclub.org/_files/EXPECTATIONS-u09-11.pdf

Eastlake Playing Time



Based upon the size of the roster, there is a limited quantity of playing time available during games. Playing time will be based on the following factors:

Attendance and Effort at Practice: This is done to reward players who attend practice, are cooperative and work hard while there. Players who are less skilled, but attend practice and give sincere effort will be rewarded with game playing time at the expense of those who do not attend mandatory practice sessions

Ability: All factors being equal, the greater a players understanding and vision of the game and the greater her physical ability, the more playing time one can expect.
https://www.sisd.net/Page/6305

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually lawsuits by youth sport clubs are fairly common over internet posts. Often there is an attorney in the club willing to take a matter on. Clubs work hard to maintain good reputations. No one should ever support someone making a libilous statement about a club. True statements are obviously welcome. Opinion statements are not libel.

So, at the end of the day you believe it would be better to sue a club for playing a kid the suggested minimum for even a recreation level than have the kid play wall ball, juggle or practice skill moves for ten minutes a day in order to become a better player?

That is odd. Where did you get that from?

It’s really simple. Don’t post on a website that club X’s position is XYZ if you don’t know what Club X’s position is on that subject. If you know the Club’s position then stating it is fine. If you have an opinion on the Club’s position and state that it is your view, then that too is fine as opinions are not libilous speech. (There are limitations there as well though.)

Nobody posted a clubs position only their general experience. Sorry but travel sports offer only a best practices but will lean towards earned playing time. You are looking for a hard line policy that simply doesn't exist. There is no libel because a soccer club that plays their travel players based on merit while still getting kids at least 50% of playing time is not considered a smear. It is considered to be competitive based sports.

There is nothing for a soccer club to sue a forum poster over because these general best practices and rules are understood going in.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually lawsuits by youth sport clubs are fairly common over internet posts. Often there is an attorney in the club willing to take a matter on. Clubs work hard to maintain good reputations. No one should ever support someone making a libilous statement about a club. True statements are obviously welcome. Opinion statements are not libel.

So, at the end of the day you believe it would be better to sue a club for playing a kid the suggested minimum for even a recreation level than have the kid play wall ball, juggle or practice skill moves for ten minutes a day in order to become a better player?

That is odd. Where did you get that from?

It’s really simple. Don’t post on a website that club X’s position is XYZ if you don’t know what Club X’s position is on that subject. If you know the Club’s position then stating it is fine. If you have an opinion on the Club’s position and state that it is your view, then that too is fine as opinions are not libilous speech. (There are limitations there as well though.)

Anonymous wrote:Actually lawsuits by youth sport clubs are fairly common over internet posts. Often there is an attorney in the club willing to take a matter on. Clubs work hard to maintain good reputations. No one should ever support someone making a libilous statement about a club. True statements are obviously welcome. Opinion statements are not libel.

So, at the end of the day you believe it would be better to sue a club for playing a kid the suggested minimum for even a recreation level than have the kid play wall ball, juggle or practice skill moves for ten minutes a day in order to become a better player?