I've been a pretty frequent poster on this thread and I am going to pause and try and do a summary

1. It's better for society to mix people together vs tracking. Studies have shown that the high performers still stay high performing and that lower performers have strong benefits from mixing vs tracking

2. Now my point throughout this thread is that I am a realist. As a parent you are going to do what's in the best interest of your child and since this is DCUM and most here are higher SES and higher performing that means seeking out a school that has higher performing children and tracking. Real estate prices bare this out and even then many higher SES parents choose private schools. Diversity is almost never a factor in education decisions.

3. I forget who said it but the only solution I see in this is for people to continue to act in their own best interest and send their kids to the best school possible (that's human nature) and volunteer/donate in schools that serve less well off populations.

And let me say again talking about diversity is not a logical argument. Home values are not higher in more diverse environments they are higher in areas that have higher test scores.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does your company have a culture of success? Is everyone an executive? If there are janitors at your company that didn't finish high school, does that make it less likely that you can do your job well? What if your company hires secretaries, accountants, mail room staff, and cafeteria workers? I mean, if they work for the same company then don't they dilute your culture of success? Wouldn't it be better to work at a company that exclusively employs executives?

Remember, high schools have 500 or more kids per grade. To the kids sitting in AP physics, the motivations of kids on the lower end of the achievement gap are irrelevant. A school doesn't need ALL superstars any more than a company needs ALL executives.

Valid point in high school as long as you have a strong cohort of high achievers to fill at least one section of AP

The problem is elementary school and even middle school in some cases when there is no tracking. To continue your analogy would you want to staff an important strategy project with your top performers and janitors and secretaries? Of course not the top performers wouldn't be able to be as effective having to deal with the dead weight.

to the Previous PP, I agree with what you wrote, however what is your stance now that MCPS Middle Schools have gotten rid of, ENTIRELY, tracking and upper/average/lower classes? They now tout "putting a mix of high achievers, avg achievers, and low achievers in each sugject class". My kid should up to Pyle after two years (4th and 5th) in the gifted center astonished at how terrible the classroom behavior, pace, lack of engagement/motivation of some of her classmates. She wishes she was commuting 90 minutes to the magnet we turned down. Pyle principal had better fix the situation. No way my other two kids are going through such a waste of 6, 7 and 8th grades.

So yeah, Putting a janitor in the executive strategy meeting does cause problems, you're not reaching people's potential or ability level. watering it all down.

MCPS bet is that by spending $$$millions on illiterate, unskilled, uneducated illegal aliens/anchor baby children via the PK-12 school system and by providing taxpayer-funded dental, healthcare, 3 meals/day, before and aftercare, babysiting for teens' babies, that the central american children will grow up to be productive U.S. citizens not living on the dole.

Since MCPS has rolled out the carpet like this for over 30 years, thus its sanctuary city status is firmly cemented in many hispanic and global communities, it is beyond time to look at the results. How were test scores of each cohort of illegals? What were the graduation rates? What were the pregnancy rates? Where are the students now? Are they still net recipients of government subsidies or net payors?

Anonymous wrote:Does your company have a culture of success? Is everyone an executive? If there are janitors at your company that didn't finish high school, does that make it less likely that you can do your job well? What if your company hires secretaries, accountants, mail room staff, and cafeteria workers? I mean, if they work for the same company then don't they dilute your culture of success? Wouldn't it be better to work at a company that exclusively employs executives?

Remember, high schools have 500 or more kids per grade. To the kids sitting in AP physics, the motivations of kids on the lower end of the achievement gap are irrelevant. A school doesn't need ALL superstars any more than a company needs ALL executives.

Valid point in high school as long as you have a strong cohort of high achievers to fill at least one section of AP

The problem is elementary school and even middle school in some cases when there is no tracking. To continue your analogy would you want to staff an important strategy project with your top performers and janitors and secretaries? Of course not the top performers wouldn't be able to be as effective having to deal with the dead weight.

Does your company have a culture of success? Is everyone an executive? If there are janitors at your company that didn't finish high school, does that make it less likely that you can do your job well? What if your company hires secretaries, accountants, mail room staff, and cafeteria workers? I mean, if they work for the same company then don't they dilute your culture of success? Wouldn't it be better to work at a company that exclusively employs executives?

Remember, high schools have 500 or more kids per grade. To the kids sitting in AP physics, the motivations of kids on the lower end of the achievement gap are irrelevant. A school doesn't need ALL superstars any more than a company needs ALL executives.

Anonymous wrote:I think the point diversity posters are missing is that schools with better test scores etc have a culture of success, now this is obviously a result of the educational and economic standing of the parents but the culture does exist. When your child is in a similar culture, they are expected, motivated to do well, the problem with lower performing schools is not that they don't have bright kids (of course they have bright kids), the problem is the overall culture is not the one which values academics and success as much.

Culture is a difficult thing to change, it takes a similar mindset to create the dominant culture , the dominant culture at lower performing schools will not be of high academic achievement till the similarity of academic success is the majority. I am not White and I think it's not right to bash White posters in guise of diversity. I am SE Asian and yes I look for a certain percentage of my own kind so that my kids can feel comfortable at school, but really all parents are simply doing their best for their kids, nothing more, nothing less. FWIW, I do choose a school based on performance because I am looking for the right culture, I am not picking high performance schools because I am a racist etc.

I'm wondering how Whitman High School can have a culture of success. Perhaps you meant that the parents of the students who attend Whitman High School are successful?

Nobody is bashing white posters, let alone in the guise of diversity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the PP above, so how do you suggest we measure success and achievement??? If there is no difference between high performing and low performing schools, then what is this achievement gap we keep talking about? Why are my tax dollars being spent to bridge the achievement gap if there is no gap as per you?

Also, I never said there was a gap, I said tests alone are not a reliable measurement. I don't know about you, but there are few things I assess by one standard of measurement or criteria alone. Oh Yea, weather. It's either raining or not.

Meant to say 'didn't say there was NOT a gap.

Anonymous wrote:To the PP above, so how do you suggest we measure success and achievement??? If there is no difference between high performing and low performing schools, then what is this achievement gap we keep talking about? Why are my tax dollars being spent to bridge the achievement gap if there is no gap as per you?

HERE:
Fifty Ways to Assess Learning



Formative Tools

Classroom Assessment Techniques—these are a variety of informal short activities to assess how students’ learning is progressing. They can be done daily, weekly, monthly etc.( Angelo and Cross, 1993)
One minute paper
Muddiest point
One sentence summary
Background Questionnaire
Content Inquiry


Written Feedback


Oral Feedback/ individual student meetings


Peer feedback


Self analysis of work- builds metacognition skills


Small Group Instructional Diagnosis (SGID)


Recitation


Discussion


Observations




Summative Tools



1. Essay tests

2. Objective tests, true-false, multiple choice, fill-in-the blanks, matching

3. Cases

4. Open book tests

5. Take home tests

6. Group tests

7. Students make up a test

8. Daily quizzes

9. Pop quizzes

10. Scheduled quizzes

11. Oral presentations-power point, transparencies, web pages or sites

12. Written reports

13. Written term papers

14. Written essays

15. Group presentations

16. Speeches

17. Role plays

18. Performances

19. Simulations

20. Games, like College Bowl, Jeopardy

21. Debates

22. Trials

23. Point-Counter Point

24. Town Meeting

25. Create video or DVD

26. Interviews

27. Teach a lesson

28. Writing case studies

29. Solving problems

30. Creating mind maps-content maps

31. Create images or drawings

32. Reflective Journals

33. Discussion/participation

34. Problem sets/math/chemistry/physics /accounting

35. Answer questions from readings

36. Write summary or notes of reading

37. Puppet Show



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Anonymous wrote:To the PP above, so how do you suggest we measure success and achievement??? If there is no difference between high performing and low performing schools, then what is this achievement gap we keep talking about? Why are my tax dollars being spent to bridge the achievement gap if there is no gap as per you?

And if tests are all we need, don't complain about MOCO not having comments on report cards, about not having teacher-parent meetings. If a score is all that counts, take the number and keep it moving.

Anonymous wrote:To the PP above, so how do you suggest we measure success and achievement??? If there is no difference between high performing and low performing schools, then what is this achievement gap we keep talking about? Why are my tax dollars being spent to bridge the achievement gap if there is no gap as per you?

Also, I never said there was a gap, I said tests alone are not a reliable measurement. I don't know about you, but there are few things I assess by one standard of measurement or criteria alone. Oh Yea, weather. It's either raining or not.

Anonymous wrote:To the PP above, so how do you suggest we measure success and achievement??? If there is no difference between high performing and low performing schools, then what is this achievement gap we keep talking about? Why are my tax dollars being spent to bridge the achievement gap if there is no gap as per you?

I am saying that there is more to measuring learning than tests alone. Learning is a complex process that cannot be identified solely by how well you answer 25-300 questions.
On one side of your mouth, people say high test scores mean smarter, achievment oriented kids and families. Then in the next breath complain about teaching to the test.

To the PP above, so how do you suggest we measure success and achievement??? If there is no difference between high performing and low performing schools, then what is this achievement gap we keep talking about? Why are my tax dollars being spent to bridge the achievement gap if there is no gap as per you?

Anonymous wrote:I think the point diversity posters are missing is that schools with better test scores etc have a culture of success, now this is obviously a result of the educational and economic standing of the parents but the culture does exist. When your child is in a similar culture, they are expected, motivated to do well, the problem with lower performing schools is not that they don't have bright kids (of course they have bright kids), the problem is the overall culture is not the one which values academics and success as much.

Culture is a difficult thing to change, it takes a similar mindset to create the dominant culture , the dominant culture at lower performing schools will not be of high academic achievement till the similarity of academic success is the majority. I am not White and I think it's not right to bash White posters in guise of diversity. I am SE Asian and yes I look for a certain percentage of my own kind so that my kids can feel comfortable at school, but really all parents are simply doing their best for their kids, nothing more, nothing less. FWIW, I do choose a school based on performance because I am looking for the right culture, I am not picking high performance schools because I am a racist etc.

Give me a freaking break. You cannot assume that better test scores means there is more value placed on success or learning or achievment It just means they may have more emphasis on testing. And guess what, there are a lot of people who do not feel that testing is a definitive indicator of intelligence or future success. And to assume that those parents and various cultures somehow devalues "success" and cares about it less than you do is a load of crap. I hate to tell you, but someone working at Dunkin Donuts may just care about it more than you do, may have more willingness to strive, work hard, do what needs to be done than you do.

Anonymous wrote:I think the point diversity posters are missing is that schools with better test scores etc have a culture of success, now this is obviously a result of the educational and economic standing of the parents but the culture does exist. When your child is in a similar culture, they are expected, motivated to do well, the problem with lower performing schools is not that they don't have bright kids (of course they have bright kids), the problem is the overall culture is not the one which values academics and success as much.

Culture is a difficult thing to change, it takes a similar mindset to create the dominant culture , the dominant culture at lower performing schools will not be of high academic achievement till the similarity of academic success is the majority. I am not White and I think it's not right to bash White posters in guise of diversity. I am SE Asian and yes I look for a certain percentage of my own kind so that my kids can feel comfortable at school, but really all parents are simply doing their best for their kids, nothing more, nothing less. FWIW, I do choose a school based on performance because I am looking for the right culture, I am not picking high performance schools because I am a racist etc.

Right, but in this dense area, some of the lower rated schools still have plenty of highly educated, affluent kids who have parents with advanced degrees and high incomes. We are not in high school yet, but I'm in one of the DCC schools sometimes panned on this forum and I promise you, my child has a ton of peers who push her to do better. She tests very well, devours books that are advanced for her grade, has a vocabulary that put most adults to shame, and works hard. She is too competitive actually, and her group of friends excel at school and sports and push themselves. At the bus stop, in her classroom, at the sleep overs, at rec league soccer, etc., she is surrounded by these kids.

By the time she gets to high school, she will be taking classes with these same kids, and they will all be pushing each other, and deciding which of the top 25 colleges to go to! Sure, there will be lower performing kids in other classes, on a different track. But they aren't the ones taking AP classes etc. And, a lot of the best teachers prefer working in these schools.

I think the point diversity posters are missing is that schools with better test scores etc have a culture of success, now this is obviously a result of the educational and economic standing of the parents but the culture does exist. When your child is in a similar culture, they are expected, motivated to do well, the problem with lower performing schools is not that they don't have bright kids (of course they have bright kids), the problem is the overall culture is not the one which values academics and success as much.

Culture is a difficult thing to change, it takes a similar mindset to create the dominant culture , the dominant culture at lower performing schools will not be of high academic achievement till the similarity of academic success is the majority. I am not White and I think it's not right to bash White posters in guise of diversity. I am SE Asian and yes I look for a certain percentage of my own kind so that my kids can feel comfortable at school, but really all parents are simply doing their best for their kids, nothing more, nothing less. FWIW, I do choose a school based on performance because I am looking for the right culture, I am not picking high performance schools because I am a racist etc.