Anonymous wrote:Haven't read the whole thread, but 1) I can see why OP doesn't want to move, that's a big deal with kids and the mortgage itself isn't that crazy, 2) the cars would be a place to cut back - Kia forte or something, maybe I missed that post, but not sure why OP won't consider, if they could save a few hundred a month on cars, plus cut back discretionary spending, it might go to a good chunk of the loan payment

But really, OP, maybe you already addressed but can someone get a higher paying job? If you could throw extra money at the loan, get thru that and daycare you could come out in a few yrs in a much better position

I feel for OP, we make about the same - 2 Feds - and are in a much better position because we don't have loans, had more money to put down and a lower mortgage, etc (although we also have 2 kids although I would have liked 3 and finances were a consideration)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

What?! My brother is in the EU, pays 45+% taxes, 600 euros per month during the winter to warm up his 2 bed, 1.5 bath condo, double the price for gas, food, high interest rates etc etc. He also has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors. He can only afford one child. My SIL has been unemployed for months despite a good education and great work history.

"has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors" in that case he is not in France as that's not how the system works.

Anonymous wrote:I think this family did not recalibrate when their financial situation changed. However they had already gotten into bad practices.

Early on the OP stated that they accrued credit card debt during graduate school. I think there is a mind set of entitlement of - we are going to be professionals -we can afford to ... go out for dinner, we need to go on that networking trip, if we don't do the mini-mester in London we are not taking advantage of being at a top tier school - after grad school I will pay of my credit card debt with my signing bonus - of course after I travel Europe for the summer because I worked really hard for the last few years to get here and I deserve this.

And this mindset just spirals until you figure out a way to stop it.

To the OP - I would recommend that you cut up your credit cards and use cash for everything. Studies have shown that people who pay cash(and are in similar situations) purchase less. For things where it is easier to have a credit card - take your budget for the month for things like gas and either purchase a pre-paid card OR get a debit card set up specifically for these purchases.

Anonymous wrote:OP, this site helped me save a lot of $, the kids can help cook and it's a fun time, we listen to music, talk, etc. In some weird way, learning basic, cheap, healthy cooking was grounding. When cleaning up I packed leftovers as lunches. We all felt better and it spurred me to find other ways of building financial security. http://wegotreal.com/frugal-real-food-meal-plan/

You can lavish borrowed $ on them to show love, or give them the gift of time, happy and relaxed memories and financial security. Maybe even help pay for college so they can start out debt free?

We were a lot like you in lifestyle, but switching to Friday movie night with homemade pizza, Saturday spaghetti and games night and going to the park or a museum on Sunday after church are all free. Sometimes we invite another family along.

If you are lawyers, a switch to private could really boost income but with a lot more hours worked and a lot less security. Why not right size your expectations and spending and relish the job security? My parents grew up poor and never taught me budgeting, cooking, etc. I lavished $ on my kids but also worried about debt. Reading Michelle Singletary and finding healthy affordable meal plans made being secure seem appealing and doable. The lessons she got from family and that she passes on make for a feeling of accomplishment and security that credit can't give you. Imagine what you want kids to remember if they grow up in house you are in. Relaxed loving parents who valued security and family time? Or lots of time in car and delivery pizza? I realized that what seemed gratifying in the moment was not moving us toward what I really valued.

If you do end up splitting, one or both of you may end up in bankruptcy. Start taking steps now to be more financially conservative and to feel good about it. Your husband might not want to engage but you can still make a lot of progress. While they are little, try to maximize family time together while keeping earning potential as high as possible. Mommy tracking does your kids no favors in age of Ashley Madison, many learned that lesson the hard way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

What?! My brother is in the EU, pays 45+% taxes, 600 euros per month during the winter to warm up his 2 bed, 1.5 bath condo, double the price for gas, food, high interest rates etc etc. He also has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors. He can only afford one child. My SIL has been unemployed for months despite a good education and great work history.

I don't know where your brother is, but assessments of happiness consistently rank the US below many EU countries.

Yeah, all the European and Canada cheerleaders tend to neglect to mention the downsides. Oh, all the paid leaves women get in other countries? The money paid is capped, often at very low amounts. Some companies supplement, most don't, and the ones that do--you're punished just like the lawyer mom in DC who takes the paid 16 week mat leave. The gov payment caps would be like getting unemployment benefits here--max 300-400 per week. It's great for the cashier who works down at the minimart or the office clerk at your nonnprofit making 40K per year, but the delusional DC moms who think the gov't is going to pony up to replace six figure incomes crack me up.

I completely disagree. As an European with close family and friends still living there, I can tell you the morale is incredibly low. People are discouraged, lots are becoming racist and extremists. Research the alcohol abuse and suicide rates by country. Talk to people in the EU. Read about the mean waiting times to see a healthcare specialist - in Finland it's 149 days for a knee replacement consultation. There's very little opportunity for social mobility. My best friend went back to work after 3 months despite having two years paid maternity leave because she wanted some job stability. I don't want to burst your bubble but things are not great there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

What?! My brother is in the EU, pays 45+% taxes, 600 euros per month during the winter to warm up his 2 bed, 1.5 bath condo, double the price for gas, food, high interest rates etc etc. He also has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors. He can only afford one child. My SIL has been unemployed for months despite a good education and great work history.

I don't know where your brother is, but assessments of happiness consistently rank the US below many EU countries.

Yeah, all the European and Canada cheerleaders tend to neglect to mention the downsides. Oh, all the paid leaves women get in other countries? The money paid is capped, often at very low amounts. Some companies supplement, most don't, and the ones that do--you're punished just like the lawyer mom in DC who takes the paid 16 week mat leave. The gov payment caps would be like getting unemployment benefits here--max 300-400 per week. It's great for the cashier who works down at the minimart or the office clerk at your nonnprofit making 40K per year, but the delusional DC moms who think the gov't is going to pony up to replace six figure incomes crack me up.

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

What?! My brother is in the EU, pays 45+% taxes, 600 euros per month during the winter to warm up his 2 bed, 1.5 bath condo, double the price for gas, food, high interest rates etc etc. He also has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors. He can only afford one child. My SIL has been unemployed for months despite a good education and great work history.

"has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors" in that case he is not in France as that's not how the system works.

But I will add that for the rest I wont contradict you, Europe is certainly not cheap and unemployment is a big issue. There are a lot of people who cannot really afford having children. HOWEVER, it won't be such a catastrophic drain on their budget. If you are financially in trouble you will actually get a lot of free stuff (daycare could end up being almost completely free for ex. and that includes meals), your kids will have health insurance and their chances at higher education are not ruined. You receive a monthly stipend per child (family allocation). It is not the factor that will make you go bankrupt.. And for sure, in the situation of OP, with 2 working parents it wouldn't be an issue.