I don’t see why importance of biological bond between a mother and a baby has to be undermined to validate adoption or daycare. Just because it’s not optimal, doesn’t mean it’s subpar.

Adoption is beautiful and a blessing but are there any unbiased scientific studies about any psychological effects on babies?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re: stay at home dads: I actually grew up with a stay at home dad. There is also one 2 doors down from me. The thing i’ve noticed is, mom is always mom. We never saw my dad as our primary parent - we probably felt about him the way kids feel about their Nannies. We wanted mom instead! I can see it in my neighbors too. When a dad comes home from work in a SAHM household, let’s be honest, it takes some work to get the kids to detach from mom and go to dad. When the mom at my neighbor’s house comes home, those kids are climbing all over mom like she’s an oasis and they haven’t had a drink all day.

Plus, let’s not pretend dads want to stay home with babies and young kids the way moms do. Men can go back to work a week after their kid is born and be emotionally fine. It would tear a mom apart to do that. Very few men care about returning to work when their baby is 3 months old. So many moms feel a deep need to stay with their babies at that age even if they need to go back to work for money.

You are very different than our kids. Ours run to Dad. (of course I encourage it to get a break).

And a lot of kids run to the nanny. Is that because their parents don’t have a natural attachment to the kids? No, it’s because kids run to the person they see as their primary caregiver. Sure that might be the working mom and not the SAHD but it has nothing to do with which parent has more estrogen.

And I know so many women who couldn’t wait to get back to work.

The idea that it doesn’t matter if it’s mom or dad is insane to me. That baby grew in mom’s belly. There are chemical and physical implications to that. The bond between mother and child starts in the womb. That’s not to say the child can’t have strong bonds to other adults of course, but there is no denying the special place of a mother. Isn’t that evidenced in cases where the mother was NOT able to form that bond, like due to addiction or some other major emotional issue? There is lasting damage.

New poster. Are you the same PP returning repeatedly to say how the mother-child bond is different, special, only women are "heartbroken" to leave kids to return to work but you know no men who were similarly affected, etc. etc.?

I know this won't dent your very firmly held beliefs but....You are working entirely in vast generalizations and stereotypes. You're using the narrative that gets used to socialize women to believe they should be at home (and should feel at least a little guilty if they're not) and men to believe it's not entirely normal if they want to stay home (and should feel at least a little guilty, and unmanly, if they are more nurturing than their kids' moms). Women and men ARE biologically wired differently. I agree. But your stereotypes and assumptions are just gargantuan.

And you make the mistake of believing that if you personally don't know any examples of, for instance, a man who was upset about returning to work and leaving his kids to do so, then such a thing surely does not exist. Your personal experience is not the yardstick for everyone, everywhere.

By the way, your premise above also is hurtful to adoptees, who might never have known their birth mothers. I'm sure you don't mean it to, but your attitude smacks of the idea that adoptees will be inherently damaged forever because they didn't get to have a bond after birth with their bio mothers. Can that be true? Sure. Is it a given? Never. Many people are infinitely better off with their adoptive families but I suspect you'd pity adoptees for not being able to continue that chemical bond with the women who bore them. You maybe don't mean that at all but can you see how that is the possible extension of your thinking?

No actually. I don’t. That’s you reading into things and being a typical snow flake.

So if you make your statement, it's gospel truth. If I point out that your statement has extremely hurtful implications for all adoptees, I'm "reading into things" and -- oh, mature discourse! -- I'm a snowflake, too.

Why are you afraid to think about the implications of your beliefs for adoptees? You can't defend your ideas or think them out to their logical next steps?

Anonymous wrote:^ yep. I was just waiting for somebody to make the point about adoption and watch these people spin out when they hear the logical conclusion of what they’re saying.

Agree. I'm the PP a few posts back who raised the question re: adoption. This narrative by at least one poster about how damaging it is for a child not to have a relationship with its bio mother, because of the "in the belly" chemical bond etc. -- It's appalling how there has been zero realization of how that narrative sounds to an adoptee or an adoptive parent. I hope it's unintentional, but it's such an offhanded dismissal of all the good adoption can do, and the profound value of the bond between a child and parent who are not biologically related. Some posters here seem blind to the concept of families of choice and are all about biology.

So careless, so hurtful, and so very unaware of the fact that adoptive families are all around us.

Anonymous wrote:Why does it bother working moms so much that other moms choose to stay home? You are not supporting us financially or in any other way so what difference does it make to you?

Guilt, jealousy, entitlement and effort to give validity to their own choice. Same as SAHMs think of women who make a different choice.

OP here. This really turned into a very interesting discussion! Lol!

I am very happy with our decision. I feel very fortunate that we raised ourselves out of a very bad situation where (ironically I suppose) I HAD to stay home (couldn’t afford after care, never mind full on day care and nannies), to a place where I can decide to permanently (or not) stay home. I have a fabulous DH!

^ I think the point about dads not having a huge emotional response to leaving a baby To go to work is irrelevant to the question of who or whether or not one parent should stay home, but I am with you on the idea that it’s awful that not all women have that choice, even if they made reasonable financial sacrifices.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re: stay at home dads: I actually grew up with a stay at home dad. There is also one 2 doors down from me. The thing i’ve noticed is, mom is always mom. We never saw my dad as our primary parent - we probably felt about him the way kids feel about their Nannies. We wanted mom instead! I can see it in my neighbors too. When a dad comes home from work in a SAHM household, let’s be honest, it takes some work to get the kids to detach from mom and go to dad. When the mom at my neighbor’s house comes home, those kids are climbing all over mom like she’s an oasis and they haven’t had a drink all day.

Plus, let’s not pretend dads want to stay home with babies and young kids the way moms do. Men can go back to work a week after their kid is born and be emotionally fine. It would tear a mom apart to do that. Very few men care about returning to work when their baby is 3 months old. So many moms feel a deep need to stay with their babies at that age even if they need to go back to work for money.

You are very different than our kids. Ours run to Dad. (of course I encourage it to get a break).

And a lot of kids run to the nanny. Is that because their parents don’t have a natural attachment to the kids? No, it’s because kids run to the person they see as their primary caregiver. Sure that might be the working mom and not the SAHD but it has nothing to do with which parent has more estrogen.

And I know so many women who couldn’t wait to get back to work.

The idea that it doesn’t matter if it’s mom or dad is insane to me. That baby grew in mom’s belly. There are chemical and physical implications to that. The bond between mother and child starts in the womb. That’s not to say the child can’t have strong bonds to other adults of course, but there is no denying the special place of a mother. Isn’t that evidenced in cases where the mother was NOT able to form that bond, like due to addiction or some other major emotional issue? There is lasting damage.

New poster. Are you the same PP returning repeatedly to say how the mother-child bond is different, special, only women are "heartbroken" to leave kids to return to work but you know no men who were similarly affected, etc. etc.?

I know this won't dent your very firmly held beliefs but....You are working entirely in vast generalizations and stereotypes. You're using the narrative that gets used to socialize women to believe they should be at home (and should feel at least a little guilty if they're not) and men to believe it's not entirely normal if they want to stay home (and should feel at least a little guilty, and unmanly, if they are more nurturing than their kids' moms). Women and men ARE biologically wired differently. I agree. But your stereotypes and assumptions are just gargantuan.

And you make the mistake of believing that if you personally don't know any examples of, for instance, a man who was upset about returning to work and leaving his kids to do so, then such a thing surely does not exist. Your personal experience is not the yardstick for everyone, everywhere.

By the way, your premise above also is hurtful to adoptees, who might never have known their birth mothers. I'm sure you don't mean it to, but your attitude smacks of the idea that adoptees will be inherently damaged forever because they didn't get to have a bond after birth with their bio mothers. Can that be true? Sure. Is it a given? Never. Many people are infinitely better off with their adoptive families but I suspect you'd pity adoptees for not being able to continue that chemical bond with the women who bore them. You maybe don't mean that at all but can you see how that is the possible extension of your thinking?

DP. I'm the poster who I think started this particular thread, but no there are a few different people commenting (including PP you're responding to). (I'm not the snowflake poster either haha!) I really don't care at all what works for a particular family - that's not the point I'm trying to make. A woman doesn't want to stay home, fine! A man wants to stay home, great! If that is what works for your family and makes you happy, that is awesome.

My point about SAHD's was not that they're not great parents, but from what I can see, and my own experience, it's just really not the same situation as a stay at home mom. I'm sure that's debatable - that's fine. But I DO firmly believe there are nearly zero dads out there who feel a deep, crushing need to be home with their babies and toddlers the way some women do. I'm sorry, but I do not believe that.

The point I am trying to make is that you cannot pretend women and men are the same and try to make the stay at home decision all about economics and rational choices. For many women, it is an emotional decision, and that is not a bad thing. We are humans, with emotions, and a lot of moms have STRONG EMOTIONS about staying home with their babies and young children.

For me, where this makes me most upset, is that there are women out there who don't have the choice to stay home because they don't have enough money, and to me that honestly nearing the level of a human rights violation. That might sound hyberbolic to people, but it's not to me. I think those poor women are the ones who get negatively impact when we making staying at home all about daycare costs, whether women and men make equal money, whether men pull their weight at home, etc.

I personally feel extremely fortunate that my husband makes enough money for me to stay home, and I feel extremely sad for women who don't have that choice.

Anonymous wrote:Why does it bother working moms so much that other moms choose to stay home? You are not supporting us financially or in any other way so what difference does it make to you?

I’m a SAHM and I don’t think it really bothers many of them. Maybe a few are jealous and some see that it can have a teeny negative impact on how people perceive women overall (and I can see that too), but the vast majority of people are live-and-let-live types. I know a ton of women who are big law attorneys or something equally demanding/prestigious and almost all of them are either enthusiastic about my choice or think it’s about as important as what I like on my pizza. The one exception is an older women who was a judge and had to push back against the idea that women should stay home to advance in her career, so I get why she’d be frustrated with my choice.

Why does it bother working moms so much that other moms choose to stay home? You are not supporting us financially or in any other way so what difference does it make to you?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re: stay at home dads: I actually grew up with a stay at home dad. There is also one 2 doors down from me. The thing i’ve noticed is, mom is always mom. We never saw my dad as our primary parent - we probably felt about him the way kids feel about their Nannies. We wanted mom instead! I can see it in my neighbors too. When a dad comes home from work in a SAHM household, let’s be honest, it takes some work to get the kids to detach from mom and go to dad. When the mom at my neighbor’s house comes home, those kids are climbing all over mom like she’s an oasis and they haven’t had a drink all day.

Plus, let’s not pretend dads want to stay home with babies and young kids the way moms do. Men can go back to work a week after their kid is born and be emotionally fine. It would tear a mom apart to do that. Very few men care about returning to work when their baby is 3 months old. So many moms feel a deep need to stay with their babies at that age even if they need to go back to work for money.

You are very different than our kids. Ours run to Dad. (of course I encourage it to get a break).

And a lot of kids run to the nanny. Is that because their parents don’t have a natural attachment to the kids? No, it’s because kids run to the person they see as their primary caregiver. Sure that might be the working mom and not the SAHD but it has nothing to do with which parent has more estrogen.

And I know so many women who couldn’t wait to get back to work.

My parents had little attachment to us. Seeing us at best for 20 minutes for dinner and all of us going our own ways is not much of a family life. If you don’t want to make your kids a priority don’t have or adopt them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re: stay at home dads: I actually grew up with a stay at home dad. There is also one 2 doors down from me. The thing i’ve noticed is, mom is always mom. We never saw my dad as our primary parent - we probably felt about him the way kids feel about their Nannies. We wanted mom instead! I can see it in my neighbors too. When a dad comes home from work in a SAHM household, let’s be honest, it takes some work to get the kids to detach from mom and go to dad. When the mom at my neighbor’s house comes home, those kids are climbing all over mom like she’s an oasis and they haven’t had a drink all day.

Plus, let’s not pretend dads want to stay home with babies and young kids the way moms do. Men can go back to work a week after their kid is born and be emotionally fine. It would tear a mom apart to do that. Very few men care about returning to work when their baby is 3 months old. So many moms feel a deep need to stay with their babies at that age even if they need to go back to work for money.

I believe this is how you feel, how your family is set up, and many of your friends feel.

I can tell you it was not true for me. I wanted to get back to something more intellectual after my kids were born. My DH worked full time but was absolutely the better parent for toddlers and preschoolers. He just had more patience than I did and would be interested in spending the required five mins to discuss whether to put your left shoe on first or your right - I once recorded a conversation he had with my DD - he approached this (daily conversation at this time) like it was a Latin translation and they really debated the merits. He found joy in all these small things and my children blossomed (I cooked, read to them, cuddled them, etc but man was I glad I married the man I did). Now they are teens and I do think it’s very valuable for both my children to see me in my job. It makes them more independent (they have to get their stuff together because a parent can’t swing by school and drop off a forgotten assignment or project). They come to me for homework help in AP calc, AP physics, AP chemistry. They take pride in knowing their mom can explain to them (and their friends) not only how to do the problems but also how it’s used in the real world. We talk about my work and I get them involved in thinking through real life issues I might be dealing with. I am no different really than any of the other mothers in their friend group, I don’t think, in attention and nurturing of them as teens. Not sure these children could have been more loved. Your experience is no doubt true for you but please try not to think in these broad stereotypes.

I didn’t say anything about dads not loving their children or being good parents. Your husband sounds great, but you don’t say anything about him being heartbroken that he had to go back to work when he had young children. There are many women who are devastated to leave their babies and return to work. I have yet to meet a man who feels that way.

Maybe it’s our own dynamic but my husband would have thought I was crazy if I said I was “heartbroken” to leave my baby behind when I went to work. If my husband had said the same to me, I would have been equally confused. This type of hyperbole doesn’t fly in our household and I admit I do not understand people who say such things.

^ yep. I was just waiting for somebody to make the point about adoption and watch these people spin out when they hear the logical conclusion of what they’re saying.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re: stay at home dads: I actually grew up with a stay at home dad. There is also one 2 doors down from me. The thing i’ve noticed is, mom is always mom. We never saw my dad as our primary parent - we probably felt about him the way kids feel about their Nannies. We wanted mom instead! I can see it in my neighbors too. When a dad comes home from work in a SAHM household, let’s be honest, it takes some work to get the kids to detach from mom and go to dad. When the mom at my neighbor’s house comes home, those kids are climbing all over mom like she’s an oasis and they haven’t had a drink all day.

Plus, let’s not pretend dads want to stay home with babies and young kids the way moms do. Men can go back to work a week after their kid is born and be emotionally fine. It would tear a mom apart to do that. Very few men care about returning to work when their baby is 3 months old. So many moms feel a deep need to stay with their babies at that age even if they need to go back to work for money.

You are very different than our kids. Ours run to Dad. (of course I encourage it to get a break).

And a lot of kids run to the nanny. Is that because their parents don’t have a natural attachment to the kids? No, it’s because kids run to the person they see as their primary caregiver. Sure that might be the working mom and not the SAHD but it has nothing to do with which parent has more estrogen.

And I know so many women who couldn’t wait to get back to work.

The idea that it doesn’t matter if it’s mom or dad is insane to me. That baby grew in mom’s belly. There are chemical and physical implications to that. The bond between mother and child starts in the womb. That’s not to say the child can’t have strong bonds to other adults of course, but there is no denying the special place of a mother. Isn’t that evidenced in cases where the mother was NOT able to form that bond, like due to addiction or some other major emotional issue? There is lasting damage.

New poster. Are you the same PP returning repeatedly to say how the mother-child bond is different, special, only women are "heartbroken" to leave kids to return to work but you know no men who were similarly affected, etc. etc.?

I know this won't dent your very firmly held beliefs but....You are working entirely in vast generalizations and stereotypes. You're using the narrative that gets used to socialize women to believe they should be at home (and should feel at least a little guilty if they're not) and men to believe it's not entirely normal if they want to stay home (and should feel at least a little guilty, and unmanly, if they are more nurturing than their kids' moms). Women and men ARE biologically wired differently. I agree. But your stereotypes and assumptions are just gargantuan.

And you make the mistake of believing that if you personally don't know any examples of, for instance, a man who was upset about returning to work and leaving his kids to do so, then such a thing surely does not exist. Your personal experience is not the yardstick for everyone, everywhere.

By the way, your premise above also is hurtful to adoptees, who might never have known their birth mothers. I'm sure you don't mean it to, but your attitude smacks of the idea that adoptees will be inherently damaged forever because they didn't get to have a bond after birth with their bio mothers. Can that be true? Sure. Is it a given? Never. Many people are infinitely better off with their adoptive families but I suspect you'd pity adoptees for not being able to continue that chemical bond with the women who bore them. You maybe don't mean that at all but can you see how that is the possible extension of your thinking?

No actually. I don’t. That’s you reading into things and being a typical snow flake.

NP. Your response is inadequate. This has nothing to do with snowflakes. Your argument that a child will suffer if they do not spend time bonding as a baby with their biological mother has implications that stretch far beyond the discussion of mom or dad staying home with the kids. You threw it out there without thinking of how hurtful it is ON TOP OF THE FACT that it is BS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re: stay at home dads: I actually grew up with a stay at home dad. There is also one 2 doors down from me. The thing i’ve noticed is, mom is always mom. We never saw my dad as our primary parent - we probably felt about him the way kids feel about their Nannies. We wanted mom instead! I can see it in my neighbors too. When a dad comes home from work in a SAHM household, let’s be honest, it takes some work to get the kids to detach from mom and go to dad. When the mom at my neighbor’s house comes home, those kids are climbing all over mom like she’s an oasis and they haven’t had a drink all day.

Plus, let’s not pretend dads want to stay home with babies and young kids the way moms do. Men can go back to work a week after their kid is born and be emotionally fine. It would tear a mom apart to do that. Very few men care about returning to work when their baby is 3 months old. So many moms feel a deep need to stay with their babies at that age even if they need to go back to work for money.

You are very different than our kids. Ours run to Dad. (of course I encourage it to get a break).

And a lot of kids run to the nanny. Is that because their parents don’t have a natural attachment to the kids? No, it’s because kids run to the person they see as their primary caregiver. Sure that might be the working mom and not the SAHD but it has nothing to do with which parent has more estrogen.

And I know so many women who couldn’t wait to get back to work.

The idea that it doesn’t matter if it’s mom or dad is insane to me. That baby grew in mom’s belly. There are chemical and physical implications to that. The bond between mother and child starts in the womb. That’s not to say the child can’t have strong bonds to other adults of course, but there is no denying the special place of a mother. Isn’t that evidenced in cases where the mother was NOT able to form that bond, like due to addiction or some other major emotional issue? There is lasting damage.

New poster. Are you the same PP returning repeatedly to say how the mother-child bond is different, special, only women are "heartbroken" to leave kids to return to work but you know no men who were similarly affected, etc. etc.?

I know this won't dent your very firmly held beliefs but....You are working entirely in vast generalizations and stereotypes. You're using the narrative that gets used to socialize women to believe they should be at home (and should feel at least a little guilty if they're not) and men to believe it's not entirely normal if they want to stay home (and should feel at least a little guilty, and unmanly, if they are more nurturing than their kids' moms). Women and men ARE biologically wired differently. I agree. But your stereotypes and assumptions are just gargantuan.

And you make the mistake of believing that if you personally don't know any examples of, for instance, a man who was upset about returning to work and leaving his kids to do so, then such a thing surely does not exist. Your personal experience is not the yardstick for everyone, everywhere.

By the way, your premise above also is hurtful to adoptees, who might never have known their birth mothers. I'm sure you don't mean it to, but your attitude smacks of the idea that adoptees will be inherently damaged forever because they didn't get to have a bond after birth with their bio mothers. Can that be true? Sure. Is it a given? Never. Many people are infinitely better off with their adoptive families but I suspect you'd pity adoptees for not being able to continue that chemical bond with the women who bore them. You maybe don't mean that at all but can you see how that is the possible extension of your thinking?

No actually. I don’t. That’s you reading into things and being a typical snow flake.