Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 20:40     Subject: VA math changes - ways to speak out
“ Almost everyone with an advanced kid in a heterogeneous classroom has had a similarly experience to my kids. They get ignored by the teacher and stuck either on computer programs or doing busywork while the teacher focuses on the struggling students. They're bored and completely unchallenged. Schools and teachers have peddled the idea for years that they can differentiate for and challenge all learners, yet it never pans out. Why would any of us have any faith that this time, they really mean it and will somehow be able to produce the appropriate challenge that they've been incapable of producing for the last many years? ”

Yes. Exactly. This is the experience of almost every parent of a quicker kid. The notion that we are to take it on faith that what we have seen play out NOW regularly somehow magically will not happen once we cram all the math abilities together defies belief.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 20:33     Subject: Re:VA math changes - ways to speak out
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Uh yeah this notion that the quick kids will effectively become teacher assistants once they learn the material is exactly what many of us are mad about!!!



The best way to master content is to be able to teach to someone else.



This is a common myth.

If you want to think about the logical fallacy, consider that "If they can't teach it well, they don't know it well enough" - why then do we certify teachers, especially for elementary school? Certainly most adults know things like addition well enough. Shouldn't they then be able to effectively teach everyone? And if that's the case, then why is anyone falling behind at the elementary level (certainly we don't have a glut of certified teachers who just don't know the material well enough.

Here are some resources if you'd like to see what the research has said about the topic:
-https://www.nagc.org/blog/peer-tutoring-and-gifted-learners-%E2%80%93-applying-critical-thinking-lens
-https://wku.edu/gifted/resources/ksba-toolkit-items/fact-fiction.pdf
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 20:04     Subject: VA math changes - ways to speak out
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Why assume the work won’t be challenging in different ways?

Well, the classroom teachers on this thread and the ones I know IRL are stating that they won't be able to challenge the top kids in heterogeneous classes. There's only so much a teacher can do if the lesson is on adding two digit numbers, some kids are still struggling to add single digit numbers, while others mastered this skill in preschool. The only examples that have been given are group projects and drafting the advanced kids to act as teachers' helpers. That might be "challenging in different ways," but it won't be challenging in the right way.


PP adding to the above:
Almost everyone with an advanced kid in a heterogeneous classroom has had a similarly experience to my kids. They get ignored by the teacher and stuck either on computer programs or doing busywork while the teacher focuses on the struggling students. They're bored and completely unchallenged. Schools and teachers have peddled the idea for years that they can differentiate for and challenge all learners, yet it never pans out. Why would any of us have any faith that this time, they really mean it and will somehow be able to produce the appropriate challenge that they've been incapable of producing for the last many years?

For many of our kids, advanced math classes were the one refuge they had from being ignored and unchallenged all day. They will be so much worse off when they're losing even that one hour of actually being taught.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 19:58     Subject: VA math changes - ways to speak out
Anonymous wrote:
Why assume the work won’t be challenging in different ways?

Well, the classroom teachers on this thread and the ones I know IRL are stating that they won't be able to challenge the top kids in heterogeneous classes. There's only so much a teacher can do if the lesson is on adding two digit numbers, some kids are still struggling to add single digit numbers, while others mastered this skill in preschool. The only examples that have been given are group projects and drafting the advanced kids to act as teachers' helpers. That might be "challenging in different ways," but it won't be challenging in the right way.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 19:51     Subject: VA math changes - ways to speak out
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
On the flip side, how would his life meaningfully change if he didn’t take AP Calculus until 12th grade?


I don't know. How would a kid's life meaningfully change if the kid was reading chapter books in K, but then got stuck doing BOB books for the next two years? The powers that be never want to force kids into language arts programs that are remedial for them, but they're certainly eager to do so with math.


Why assume the work won’t be challenging in different ways?
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 19:49     Subject: VA math changes - ways to speak out
Anonymous wrote:Honest question. I'm very thankful my son is in 10th grade and this won't impact him and my youngest was moved to private after the public schools bungled the pandemic.

However my oldest is naturally gifted in math. He takes AP calc in 10th grade and finds it easy. His Q3 grade was a 99. His overall grade right now is a 98.

What happens to a kid like him who had his multiplication tables memorized by 2nd grade?

Does he just wither on a vine? If math were a sport he'd be an elite athlete. It would be like putting a teenager LeBron James on a rec team for basketball.


how very DCUM of you.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 19:44     Subject: VA math changes - ways to speak out
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Honest question. I'm very thankful my son is in 10th grade and this won't impact him and my youngest was moved to private after the public schools bungled the pandemic.

However my oldest is naturally gifted in math. He takes AP calc in 10th grade and finds it easy. His Q3 grade was a 99. His overall grade right now is a 98.

What happens to a kid like him who had his multiplication tables memorized by 2nd grade?

Does he just wither on a vine? If math were a sport he'd be an elite athlete. It would be like putting a teenager LeBron James on a rec team for basketball.


On the flip side, how would his life meaningfully change if he didn’t take AP Calculus until 12th grade?


I was that kid. My school only offered AP calc for 12th grade and did not offer AP Physics, AP Chemistry, or any other AP Sciences. If you're not challenged in school, you don't learn good study habits, you don't learn resilience in the face of failure, and you don't actually develop true confidence in your abilities. That will catch up to you at some point. For me, it was grad school, where my poor study habits, inability to handle being challenged, and ultimate case of imposter syndrome cost me a PhD. Kids who were objectively less intelligent sailed through the program, because they learned all of these critical skills in their high school and college programs.

Also, the lack of challenge cost me a lot of opportunities compared to the kids who were in rigorous programs. I didn't qualify for Mathcounts nationals in 8th grade because I was merely taking Algebra I, while most of the other kids in the top 10 in my state were doing Algebra II or at least Geometry. I fell a little short of qualifying for USAMO, because again I was competing against a lot of kids who had more access to higher level math. I got an honorable mention for USA Physics Olympiad, but I was competing with my half year of non-calc based Physics against kids in their 2nd year of AP physics. All of these opportunities could have led to inclusion in some nice programs, extra scholarship money, and a huge confidence boost that I sorely needed.

Artificially holding back gifted kids does nothing whatsoever to help them and has a high potential of harming them.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 19:34     Subject: VA math changes - ways to speak out
Anonymous wrote:
On the flip side, how would his life meaningfully change if he didn’t take AP Calculus until 12th grade?


I don't know. How would a kid's life meaningfully change if the kid was reading chapter books in K, but then got stuck doing BOB books for the next two years? The powers that be never want to force kids into language arts programs that are remedial for them, but they're certainly eager to do so with math.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 19:30     Subject: VA math changes - ways to speak out
Anonymous wrote:Honest question. I'm very thankful my son is in 10th grade and this won't impact him and my youngest was moved to private after the public schools bungled the pandemic.

However my oldest is naturally gifted in math. He takes AP calc in 10th grade and finds it easy. His Q3 grade was a 99. His overall grade right now is a 98.

What happens to a kid like him who had his multiplication tables memorized by 2nd grade?

Does he just wither on a vine? If math were a sport he'd be an elite athlete. It would be like putting a teenager LeBron James on a rec team for basketball.


On the flip side, how would his life meaningfully change if he didn’t take AP Calculus until 12th grade?
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 19:24     Subject: VA math changes - ways to speak out
Honest question. I'm very thankful my son is in 10th grade and this won't impact him and my youngest was moved to private after the public schools bungled the pandemic.

However my oldest is naturally gifted in math. He takes AP calc in 10th grade and finds it easy. His Q3 grade was a 99. His overall grade right now is a 98.

What happens to a kid like him who had his multiplication tables memorized by 2nd grade?

Does he just wither on a vine? If math were a sport he'd be an elite athlete. It would be like putting a teenager LeBron James on a rec team for basketball.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 17:03     Subject: VA math changes - ways to speak out
Ways to speak out, here is a link to an e-mail you can share.

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/615/959398.page#19810196
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 17:02     Subject: VA math changes - ways to speak out
The links on their website do reference Riverside.
Not sure if they had this in the webinar.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 15:22     Subject: Re:VA math changes - ways to speak out
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Group work doesn't automatically mean making kids "responsible" for other kids' comprehension or tying grades to other members... You drew that conclusion yourself.


I didn't draw any conclusions. I noted that the Riverside study, which is being used as a citation for how well detracking has worked in the past, made kids responsible for other kids' comprehension. It doesn't mean that VDOE will do the same, but they are heavily pushing group work as a model, and they're also heavily relying upon studies like the Riverside one to justify their view that detracking will benefit all students.

This was the quote from the article.

From the first link:
“ A major part of the equitable results attained at Railside was the serious way in which teachers expected
students to be responsible for each other’s learning. Many schools employ group work which, by its nature, brings with it an element of interdependence, but Railside teachers went beyond this to ensure that students took their responsibility to each other very seriously. One way in which teachers nurtured a feeling of responsibility was through the assessment system. For example, teachers occasionally graded the work of a group by rating the quality of the conversations groups had. In addition, the teachers occasionally gave group tests, which took several formats. In one version, students worked through a test together, but the teachers graded only one of the individual papers and that grade stood as the grade for all the students in the group. A third way in which responsibility was encouraged was through the practice of asking one student in a group to answer a follow-up question after a group had worked on something. If the student could not answer the question, the teacher would leave the group to further discussion before returning to ask the same student again. In the intervening time, it was the group’s responsibility to help the student learn the mathematics they needed to answer the question.”


Yes, my bad, the Riverside example did include tying grades to others and group responsibility.

In other collaborative learning materials, these weren't best practices.

Has VDOE explicitly referenced Riverside?
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 15:04     Subject: Re:VA math changes - ways to speak out
Anonymous wrote:
From the first link:
“ A major part of the equitable results attained at Railside was the serious way in which teachers expected
students to be responsible for each other’s learning. Many schools employ group work which, by its nature, brings with it an element of interdependence, but Railside teachers went beyond this to ensure that students took their responsibility to each other very seriously. One way in which teachers nurtured a feeling of responsibility was through the assessment system. For example, teachers occasionally graded the work of a group by rating the quality of the conversations groups had. In addition, the teachers occasionally gave group tests, which took several formats. In one version, students worked through a test together, but the teachers graded only one of the individual papers and that grade stood as the grade for all the students in the group. A third way in which responsibility was encouraged was through the practice of asking one student in a group to answer a follow-up question after a group had worked on something. If the student could not answer the question, the teacher would leave the group to further discussion before returning to ask the same student again. In the intervening time, it was the group’s responsibility to help the student learn the mathematics they needed to answer the question.”

If they tried Sippenhaft like this my child would be homeschooled the next day.

Absolutely beyond belief.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2021 13:48     Subject: VA math changes - ways to speak out
"the Riverside study, which is being used as a citation for how well detracking has worked in the past, made kids responsible for other kids' comprehension. It doesn't mean that VDOE will do the same, but they are heavily pushing group work as a model, and they're also heavily relying upon studies like the Riverside one to justify their view that detracking will benefit all students."

+1