Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

Except that it’s not...

Women have had to fight so hard for resources and safe spaces, it is disconcerting to see them disintegrating under the banner of trans inclusion.

Even on this thread it’s now considered exclusionary to say women menstruate or that women bear children and go through menopause. Historically, much of the fight for women’s rights have included oppression directly related to female biological functions. Girls not being able to attend school because of their periods. Child marriage and forced or coerced pregnancy. Maternity care. Sexual violence and rape and the risk of pregnancy. All of these issues are not inclusive of trans women but they very relevant to biological women. Recognizing that reality is not anti-trans. It’s actually the height of misogyny to expect biological women to give up all the progress we’ve made and the safe spaces we’ve created because it might not be inclusive enough or relevant to a trans woman’s experience.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s like being born a female and liking pink and expressing femininity is something bad. Like it needs to be purged and erased. Don’t do his to me. Don’t do this to the billions of women who think this way around the world. Women are still inunde el p,aging fields here. Heck we still don’t even have paid maternity leave in the freaking United States! Unlike some other countries. We get no propriety in society at all.

I accept you, trans or whatever you are. I love you. I admire you. I see you. But you must show the same regard to me. And also listen to the points here about how totally unfair it is to compete in our space, when we have struggle for so long to carve out our space, and gain some sense of traction in society.

How can you think trans women DON’T see and feel those same struggles as we do? Do you think they didn’t face struggles of their own growing up in an body they felt wasn’t theirs? That they didn’t face discrimination for who they are? Amazing you think YOUR womanhood is threatened or discounted by theirs.

Okay explain to me then why they don't want cis-women playing trans roles, you can't have it both ways, the struggle is not the same. And how anyone can support Jenner getting Woman of the Year, who is still a republican and before transitioning had never come out and supported LGBTQ issues is beyond me. She should have refused the award and I quote in acceptance speech, "“The hardest part about being a woman is figuring out what to wear.” F$$$ Y$$

Ugh, that just trivializes women. Jenner became a misogynist caricature of what men think women are. No, wearing heels and makeup and getting a boob job won't make you a woman. It is offensive.

Plenty of women choose to express themselves in a “feminine” way by wearing heels, wearing makeup, and getting boob jobs.

The fact that you are focusing on how Caitlin is expressing herself - and not millions of other women who do the exact same thing - says more about you than it does about her. You are singling her out in a bigoted way.

She has a very large platform. She uses it poorly

Caitlin? She can dress however TF she wants to dress. If you were to lump her together with the whole Kardashian clan who ALL overdo makeup and plastic surgery, then fine. But don’t single out just one of the women from that family.

If you meant JKR, I completely agree that she has been abusing her platform.

I’m not the poster who initially brought her up. My problem is that she came out as a woman and uses her platform to spread really hateful politics. And that she dates people 40 years younger. I just don’t like her as a person, nothing to do with being trans

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

Absolutely zero. This is clearly obvious

Why do you two believe that there is an absence of a strong movement to call trans men men in any possible situation. Why there aren’t movements to talk about testicular cancer awareness in “people with pen!ses”?

So....zero?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

To insist that trans women are just men trying to invade “your” space is .... I just don’t even know how someone can think like that

People would not think that if trans women displayed as much care for women’s issues as they do for trans issues. And honestly I don’t blame them for not doing that. Trans people really do need specific and aggressive advocacy. It makes sense that they wouldn’t be fighting for those things. But women have a broader constellation of causes and trans women are asking we change the language around our advocacy to eliminate the use of the word woman. That is my basically only issue. I’m not going to support diluting the identity of the vast majority of women and reduce specificity in advocacy for trans people. Just as I won’t ask them to dilute their identity or change their language to be less specific about trans issues.

You are a “trans issue”.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

Absolutely zero. This is clearly obvious

Why do you two believe that there is an absence of a strong movement to call trans men men in any possible situation. Why there aren’t movements to talk about testicular cancer awareness in “people with pen!ses”?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s like being born a female and liking pink and expressing femininity is something bad. Like it needs to be purged and erased. Don’t do his to me. Don’t do this to the billions of women who think this way around the world. Women are still inunde el p,aging fields here. Heck we still don’t even have paid maternity leave in the freaking United States! Unlike some other countries. We get no propriety in society at all.

I accept you, trans or whatever you are. I love you. I admire you. I see you. But you must show the same regard to me. And also listen to the points here about how totally unfair it is to compete in our space, when we have struggle for so long to carve out our space, and gain some sense of traction in society.

How can you think trans women DON’T see and feel those same struggles as we do? Do you think they didn’t face struggles of their own growing up in an body they felt wasn’t theirs? That they didn’t face discrimination for who they are? Amazing you think YOUR womanhood is threatened or discounted by theirs.

Okay explain to me then why they don't want cis-women playing trans roles, you can't have it both ways, the struggle is not the same. And how anyone can support Jenner getting Woman of the Year, who is still a republican and before transitioning had never come out and supported LGBTQ issues is beyond me. She should have refused the award and I quote in acceptance speech, "“The hardest part about being a woman is figuring out what to wear.” F$$$ Y$$

Ugh, that just trivializes women. Jenner became a misogynist caricature of what men think women are. No, wearing heels and makeup and getting a boob job won't make you a woman. It is offensive.

Plenty of women choose to express themselves in a “feminine” way by wearing heels, wearing makeup, and getting boob jobs.

The fact that you are focusing on how Caitlin is expressing herself - and not millions of other women who do the exact same thing - says more about you than it does about her. You are singling her out in a bigoted way.

She has a very large platform. She uses it poorly

Caitlin? She can dress however TF she wants to dress. If you were to lump her together with the whole Kardashian clan who ALL overdo makeup and plastic surgery, then fine. But don’t single out just one of the women from that family.

If you meant JKR, I completely agree that she has been abusing her platform.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

To insist that trans women are just men trying to invade “your” space is .... I just don’t even know how someone can think like that

People would not think that if trans women displayed as much care for women’s issues as they do for trans issues. And honestly I don’t blame them for not doing that. Trans people really do need specific and aggressive advocacy. It makes sense that they wouldn’t be fighting for those things. But women have a broader constellation of causes and trans women are asking we change the language around our advocacy to eliminate the use of the word woman. That is my basically only issue. I’m not going to support diluting the identity of the vast majority of women and reduce specificity in advocacy for trans people. Just as I won’t ask them to dilute their identity or change their language to be less specific about trans issues.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

Absolutely zero. This is clearly obvious

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Just stop.

How many trans people do you know or interact with on a regular basis?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s like being born a female and liking pink and expressing femininity is something bad. Like it needs to be purged and erased. Don’t do his to me. Don’t do this to the billions of women who think this way around the world. Women are still inunde el p,aging fields here. Heck we still don’t even have paid maternity leave in the freaking United States! Unlike some other countries. We get no propriety in society at all.

I accept you, trans or whatever you are. I love you. I admire you. I see you. But you must show the same regard to me. And also listen to the points here about how totally unfair it is to compete in our space, when we have struggle for so long to carve out our space, and gain some sense of traction in society.

How can you think trans women DON’T see and feel those same struggles as we do? Do you think they didn’t face struggles of their own growing up in an body they felt wasn’t theirs? That they didn’t face discrimination for who they are? Amazing you think YOUR womanhood is threatened or discounted by theirs.

Okay explain to me then why they don't want cis-women playing trans roles, you can't have it both ways, the struggle is not the same. And how anyone can support Jenner getting Woman of the Year, who is still a republican and before transitioning had never come out and supported LGBTQ issues is beyond me. She should have refused the award and I quote in acceptance speech, "“The hardest part about being a woman is figuring out what to wear.” F$$$ Y$$

Ugh, that just trivializes women. Jenner became a misogynist caricature of what men think women are. No, wearing heels and makeup and getting a boob job won't make you a woman. It is offensive.

Plenty of women choose to express themselves in a “feminine” way by wearing heels, wearing makeup, and getting boob jobs.

The fact that you are focusing on how Caitlin is expressing herself - and not millions of other women who do the exact same thing - says more about you than it does about her. You are singling her out in a bigoted way.

She has a very large platform. She uses it poorly

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

No pp has a good point. Trans men seem totally fine with either, 1) being in a state of transition and being known as a Trans man, 2) using their female anatomy (menstruating/pregnancy) while presenting as a man and functioning as a trans man or 3) being fully transitioned and just being a man

Women are raised and conditioned to not intrusively take over spaces so I think this is women doing what they’re socialize to do and easing into being men. And trans women do what men do, intrusively enter and take over the space without carrying much about what was happening before they got there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s like being born a female and liking pink and expressing femininity is something bad. Like it needs to be purged and erased. Don’t do his to me. Don’t do this to the billions of women who think this way around the world. Women are still inunde el p,aging fields here. Heck we still don’t even have paid maternity leave in the freaking United States! Unlike some other countries. We get no propriety in society at all.

I accept you, trans or whatever you are. I love you. I admire you. I see you. But you must show the same regard to me. And also listen to the points here about how totally unfair it is to compete in our space, when we have struggle for so long to carve out our space, and gain some sense of traction in society.

How can you think trans women DON’T see and feel those same struggles as we do? Do you think they didn’t face struggles of their own growing up in an body they felt wasn’t theirs? That they didn’t face discrimination for who they are? Amazing you think YOUR womanhood is threatened or discounted by theirs.

Okay explain to me then why they don't want cis-women playing trans roles, you can't have it both ways, the struggle is not the same. And how anyone can support Jenner getting Woman of the Year, who is still a republican and before transitioning had never come out and supported LGBTQ issues is beyond me. She should have refused the award and I quote in acceptance speech, "“The hardest part about being a woman is figuring out what to wear.” F$$$ Y$$

Ugh, that just trivializes women. Jenner became a misogynist caricature of what men think women are. No, wearing heels and makeup and getting a boob job won't make you a woman. It is offensive.

Plenty of women choose to express themselves in a “feminine” way by wearing heels, wearing makeup, and getting boob jobs.

The fact that you are focusing on how Caitlin is expressing herself - and not millions of other women who do the exact same thing - says more about you than it does about her. You are singling her out in a bigoted way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

To insist that trans women are just men trying to invade “your” space is .... I just don’t even know how someone can think like that

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I really don’t understand what’s offensive about that statement.

I have seen friends’ occasionally post about blocking her and how she’s transphobic. Because I was never a Harry Potter fan I had never followed her very closely. It’s very disappointing to now read her statement and know this is what all the anger was about. Really? Seriously?

She literally denies the existence of trans people. She will not acknowledge that gender =/= sex and a trans woman in her mind is not a woman.

I’m not sure that is what she is saying. But why does it matter what she thinks? This seems to be about thought-control. Is it not sufficient that someone states that they think that trans people should not be discriminated against? Why is it necessary that they *believe* that a trans woman is, in fact, genetically female? If you believe yourself to be female, despite the presence of male genitals on your body, that’s fine. But, if someone else is willing to accept & respect the fact that you live as a woman, why is it so important that they actually *believe* that it’s true?

If she wants to believe it, whatever. What I have an issue with and what most people have an issue with is she has a MASSIVE platform she is choosing to use to harm trans people in PRIDE month. She’s also a children’s book author. Like teachers, children’s book authors have a duty to not harm children. This is so hurtful and offensive to so many of her fans, many of whom are LGBTQ and some who may be trans. She can think whatever she wants but taking PRIDE month to air her grievances against trans people is awful.

I agree. To their credit, Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson and Eddie Redmayne all issued statements expressing their support for the trans community and their strong disagreement with Rowling. I wonder if any of you on this board have trans children or even know any trans people. I mean, aside from the one poster with a trans daughter who was accused of being hysterical simply for asking for compassion for kids like hers when considering these issues.