Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

What?! My brother is in the EU, pays 45+% taxes, 600 euros per month during the winter to warm up his 2 bed, 1.5 bath condo, double the price for gas, food, high interest rates etc etc. He also has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors. He can only afford one child. My SIL has been unemployed for months despite a good education and great work history.

I don't know where your brother is, but assessments of happiness consistently rank the US below many EU countries.

Yeah, all the European and Canada cheerleaders tend to neglect to mention the downsides. Oh, all the paid leaves women get in other countries? The money paid is capped, often at very low amounts. Some companies supplement, most don't, and the ones that do--you're punished just like the lawyer mom in DC who takes the paid 16 week mat leave. The gov payment caps would be like getting unemployment benefits here--max 300-400 per week. It's great for the cashier who works down at the minimart or the office clerk at your nonnprofit making 40K per year, but the delusional DC moms who think the gov't is going to pony up to replace six figure incomes crack me up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

Oh please. DC has a relatively low col compared to European capital cities. There have been articles about how difficult it is for French women to work and get promoted due to the childcare situation. Having three children is expensive in every developed county. If anything, housing is expensive and children require bedrooms. Children do not require two newish cars and activities, which the OP has spent money on.

Sorry but you are delusional. I used to live in Paris and can tell you very clearly I could afford 3 kids there and not here. The housing situation is not the issue (except that here people think they need a bedroom per child and 2000sqft to survive and in Paris you would end up thinking it is perfectly fine to be 5 in 800sqft because ll your friends are doing it, but in the end in both cities you tend to spend at least 30% of your income on housing).
The diffenrece is
- daycare : I pay 2500 for 2 kids in daycare here, which is already cheaper than last year when I had to pay 3500$ with one kid in day care and the other in a nanny share (and I had to put the older in day care to avoid losing my spot and making sure the sibling gets in the year after). In France if I get a spot in daycare I would pay ~400 euros per kid until they are 2 (800/1000 euros if they end up in a nanny share) , then free full day PS starting at 2.5 years old. That's a HUGE difference. I cannot afford 3 kids in daycare, period, I am strangled with 2 already.
- aftercare: in France schools stop at 5pm. you don't have the same aftercare costs
- healthcare: no idea how much the extra cost was in France because it was so low i didn't factor it in.
- university: you don't have to save for university, zero, nada. The only schools that you need to pay for (business schools for ex.), the cost is still low enough that you can pay as you go or take non-soul crushing student debts. I cannot afford to help 3 kids with their tuition here so I wont have a third child because I dont want to hurt the chances of the other 2. I would never have to take that factor into account in France.

As for the articles on women in France. I read them. I disagree with your conclusions. I don't think the US is in any way more family friendly or that women's career suffer less. Yes when you have children your career tends to suffer at least temporarily. How can that be surprising? In the US my friends tend to think that it is everything or nothing, I have the high pace lawyer who will never have kids, the business woman who is so adamant not to hurt her career that she never says no and doesn't see her only child and the highly educated mom who feels like she cannot have it all and so prefers to opt out and be a SAHM. In France i think my friends don't worry so much. They work and have 3 kids and yes their careers slows down for 3-4 years and then it goes back up.

I have a very good career, I love my job, i work long hours. Since I had my kids I cannot work as long as other women with no kids (or other men with no kids). I am less flexible. I am tired. I have a great life outside of work i want to get back too. My husband is exactly the same. And our coworkers can see that. We don't get the hottest projects, biggest praise or fast track. But we are fine with that, in 2-3 years when our kids are a bit more independent we will be back into it. Or not if it feels good to be on a slower but enjoyable track.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

What?! My brother is in the EU, pays 45+% taxes, 600 euros per month during the winter to warm up his 2 bed, 1.5 bath condo, double the price for gas, food, high interest rates etc etc. He also has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors. He can only afford one child. My SIL has been unemployed for months despite a good education and great work history.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

What?! My brother is in the EU, pays 45+% taxes, 600 euros per month during the winter to warm up his 2 bed, 1.5 bath condo, double the price for gas, food, high interest rates etc etc. He also has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors. He can only afford one child. My SIL has been unemployed for months despite a good education and great work history.

"has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors" in that case he is not in France as that's not how the system works.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

What?! My brother is in the EU, pays 45+% taxes, 600 euros per month during the winter to warm up his 2 bed, 1.5 bath condo, double the price for gas, food, high interest rates etc etc. He also has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors. He can only afford one child. My SIL has been unemployed for months despite a good education and great work history.

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

You answered your own question: Americans are negative about it because it is very hard to afford children in the United States given the lack of societal supports (certainly compared to Western European countries).

I agree that it is a society failure. That does not change the fact that for individuals, it makes such a choice very difficult.

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

Oh please. DC has a relatively low col compared to European capital cities. There have been articles about how difficult it is for French women to work and get promoted due to the childcare situation. Having three children is expensive in every developed county. If anything, housing is expensive and children require bedrooms. Children do not require two newish cars and activities, which the OP has spent money on.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:3 kids is a sign of success in this area. It's a keeping up with the Joneses move for a lot of people.

3 kids is definitely a "luxury" in this area.
I know many, many families who stopped at 1 or 2 because they couldn't afford a another child.

While a luxury it can be done if priorities are set up at the beginning. I have coworkers who have 4 and 5 kids. The guys make about $120k and the wives stay at home. They live in not too big houses in not awesome school districts and homeschool and don't vacation outside of some family trips. Always bring lunch, drive old vans. The kids are adorable, well behaved and seem content but I doubt anyone goes to any camp or non church event ever. It's their choice and their families. Don't know about student loans for those coworkers but I highly doubt it as most went to state schools for a STEM field and had our company pay for grad school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

We need a negative rate for the planet to sustain the species into the future. Right now we are quickly spending down the surplus.

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..