Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot understand why people who are otherwise very smart and logical people believe in god. The idea of a god has never made sense to me, even as people in my family taught me about god and religion. I exclude the religious nut jobs from this question and want to address Those who are educated and feel they have a good deal of common sense in other areas. What makes you believe? Is there any LOGICAL reason behind your beliefs?

Maybe because those people smart and logical? I am educated (three degrees), speak 3 languages fluently and two at the basic conversational level. I can't see how any educated person can deny the very existence of God? Before you accept or reject the idea of God, read his word, the Bible. You can't reject Plato or Machiavelli without reading at least several of their works? Sometimes you have to re-read it to understand, right? Sometimes you even need to talk to the Philosophy professor to accept their position (or not to accept). Try the same approach with God. Educate yourself before you reject it (not what your family taught you about religion, because God has nothing to do with religion). Read his word, and re-read it. Talk to people with degree in theology if you don't understand certain things or with pastor you trust. Maybe then it will make some sense for you.

Sorry, but it's hard to believe an educated person's recommendation to believe in God is to read "his word, the Bible" A lot of the bible is gruesome, a lot of it doesn't add up and all of it was written 2,000 thousand or so years ago. Carefully reading the bible has made a lot of people atheists.

I'm another person you've been arguing with, and I too am highly educated, including a graduate degree from one of the top three schools in the country. I, too, speak several languages fluently, although not quite as many as PP: I speak 2 languages fluently, one language near-fluently, and I have taken college-level courses in two additional languages.

I think some of the frustration with your posting style is the silliness of the arguments, which stems partly from ignorance about even the most basic tenets of Christianity. You also don't seem to know much about philosophy in general -- I'm the poster who quoted Berkeley at you, and you were unable to respond to it.

I have educated myself widely on my religion. I have read all of the New Testament, much of the Old, and many theologians including from the Jesus Seminar, and lots on the historical Jesus.

I still find Jesus' message of love, tolerance and peace compelling for all ages, including the 21st century when we're so interconnected and war is just a red button away. I don't find anything objectionable in the gospels about the treatment of minorities, women, or gays, except for a few passages in Paul and, of course, Paul was not Jesus. But most of all, the message to love your enemies is an extraordinarily powerful message, particularly today.

sounds like you've been arguing with at least two different people without realizing it. I am very familiar with the tenets of Christianity and the Jesus seminar and studies of the Historical Jesus. I understand how educated people could know all that and still have different takes on it. I also understand how Jesus' message of love, etc, is compelling. That doesn't make the Bible any less gruesome or dated or dubious and it certainly doesn't make Jesus divine or the son of god. It suggests that you have compartmentalized the parts of Christianity that appeal to you.

You seem like one of those people that think all discussions should be similar to algebraic proofs. You think you just have to find one counter example and *poof* you can just type QED and be done for ever. But llfe is not that simple. The truth is, it is very difficult to to articulate a truth that is so complicated. When we try, of course some of it comes out wrong. But that doesn't mean that there is no truth there, and that because one part, or even many parts are wrong, that the essence is wrong. You also seem to like to destroy the value that people are finding in religion, but offer them nothing in return. You get joy out of your simplistic arguments that point out things that everybody knows is wrong, but that joy is sick. Instead of destroying, do you have something to offer that is not childish? Something that helps people make sense of this world? Something that isn't as obviously stupid as the parts of religion that you insist on drawing attention to?

Atheist OP, I can't believe you are still going on about the Pagan origins of Christianity. Your assertions about Horus and Mithra being born on December 25 have been thoroughly demolished, not that you would acknowledge that and I am sure you will blithely bring this up again in some later thread to attempt to convince a new audience.

So having failed at showing the Pagan roots of Christianity, you now just asset that Christianity is paganism because the trinity is polytheistic. The concept of the trinity seems to be beyond your ken but it is most assuredly not polytheistic. God has several aspects just like people have different aspects: We have Obama the president, Obama the husband, and Obama the father.

If religion is about power and meant to scare us (of what?) why is that Christianity preaches the meek will inherit the earth?

What has religion done for us? Christianity brought us the then and still radical message that we must love one another unconditionally regardless of race, religion, or circumstance of birth.

As for wars, if you knew anything about the Arab Israeli conflict you would know it is not about religion at all--it is about possession of land. Believe it or not, the vast majority of Arabs don't now that Jewishness is associated with religion. They think think Jews are an ethnic group. And some of the most radical Palestinian leaders have actually been Christian (eg George Habbash and Nayef Hawatmeh).

"On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: 'To your descendants I have given this land..."' (Genesis 15:18).

Anonymous wrote:
Oh right -- we should read a whole book to understand your great wisdom

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot understand why people who are otherwise very smart and logical people believe in god. The idea of a god has never made sense to me, even as people in my family taught me about god and religion. I exclude the religious nut jobs from this question and want to address Those who are educated and feel they have a good deal of common sense in other areas. What makes you believe? Is there any LOGICAL reason behind your beliefs?

Maybe because those people smart and logical? I am educated (three degrees), speak 3 languages fluently and two at the basic conversational level. I can't see how any educated person can deny the very existence of God? Before you accept or reject the idea of God, read his word, the Bible. You can't reject Plato or Machiavelli without reading at least several of their works? Sometimes you have to re-read it to understand, right? Sometimes you even need to talk to the Philosophy professor to accept their position (or not to accept). Try the same approach with God. Educate yourself before you reject it (not what your family taught you about religion, because God has nothing to do with religion). Read his word, and re-read it. Talk to people with degree in theology if you don't understand certain things or with pastor you trust. Maybe then it will make some sense for you.

The idea of god has everything to do with religion as defined by geography. While the Qur'an and the Bible were supposedly "inspired" by the same god, the prophets (Muhammad and Jesus) were very much ruled by the culture. Sharia Law and Judaic beliefs are very similar, as both groups of people shared the same space. Christians, persecuted at the time, hid and started to do "their own thing."

Furthermore, if you dig deeply, you'll find that religions stem from pagan beliefs. the Romans? stole beliefs from the Greeks . . . polytheism
Examine the patterns of death and resurrection in pagan belief systems. How is Jesus any different?

And have we truly moved away from polytheism? The Christian God has Jesus and the Holy Spirit - three separate entities if you follow the trinity. Yahweh had angels, did "he" not? all lesser entities similar to Zeus and the lesser gods

It's all about power - and using religion to scare the masses.

Simply reading the bible will not offer you answers. The answers are found in researching how religion evolved over the ages. And what has religion done for us? the Crusades? the Israeli-Palestinian dispute? Should I go on and on?

Finally, why is everyone so fearful of the connection btw our "God" and the pagan gods?

So during the next big summer storm, thank Zeus or Jupiter.

Atheist OP, I can't believe you are still going on about the Pagan origins of Christianity. Your assertions about Horus and Mithra being born on December 25 have been thoroughly demolished, not that you would acknowledge that and I am sure you will blithely bring this up again in some later thread to attempt to convince a new audience.

So having failed at showing the Pagan roots of Christianity, you now just asset that Christianity is paganism because the trinity is polytheistic. The concept of the trinity seems to be beyond your ken but it is most assuredly not polytheistic. God has several aspects just like people have different aspects: We have Obama the president, Obama the husband, and Obama the father.

If religion is about power and meant to scare us (of what?) why is that Christianity preaches the meek will inherit the earth?

What has religion done for us? Christianity brought us the then and still radical message that we must love one another unconditionally regardless of race, religion, or circumstance of birth.

As for wars, if you knew anything about the Arab Israeli conflict you would know it is not about religion at all--it is about possession of land. Believe it or not, the vast majority of Arabs don't now that Jewishness is associated with religion. They think think Jews are an ethnic group. And some of the most radical Palestinian leaders have actually been Christian (eg George Habbash and Nayef Hawatmeh).

Anonymous wrote:
I'm another person you've been arguing with, and I too am highly educated, including a graduate degree from one of the top three schools in the country. I, too, speak several languages fluently, although not quite as many as PP: I speak 2 languages fluently, one language near-fluently, and I have taken college-level courses in two additional languages.

I think some of the frustration with your posting style is the silliness of the arguments, which stems partly from ignorance about even the most basic tenets of Christianity. You also don't seem to know much about philosophy in general -- I'm the poster who quoted Berkeley at you, and you were unable to respond to it.

I have educated myself widely on my religion. I have read all of the New Testament, much of the Old, and many theologians including from the Jesus Seminar, and lots on the historical Jesus.

I still find Jesus' message of love, tolerance and peace compelling for all ages, including the 21st century when we're so interconnected and war is just a red button away. I don't find anything objectionable in the gospels about the treatment of minorities, women, or gays, except for a few passages in Paul and, of course, Paul was not Jesus. But most of all, the message to love your enemies is an extraordinarily powerful message, particularly today.