We agree. My son just received his offer for LSE and he just made the decision this weekend to got London vs Georgetown and Notre Dame.

Anonymous wrote:I’m the OP. PP here is right to not focus specifically on just one specific variable on its own.

I also need to go back to my original post. I should have included St Andrews alongside #4 here since this is a US focused list. Clearly St Andrews has a great alumni network in the US and it is very helpful for those coming back to the US after going to school in the UK.

I did not include LSE on purpose on the list since it is a very niche school. But this what the list should be when including those two.

1. Oxford/Cambridge
2. Imperial/LSE
3. UCL
4. Edinburgh/King’s/St Andrews

Husband and I are both English. I went to St Andrews for undergrad and LSE grad while my husband went to UCL undergrad and Ivy grad and we have been in the US now for 20 years. My son is applying to 5 of these schools later this year (Oxford, LSE, UCL, Edinburgh and St Andrews) and this is basically how we are looking at it. Big difference if STEM vs Humanities, but the overall seems about right.

If DS gets in one of the 2 Ivy League schools he is applying to and Stanford he goes there. If not, then Oxford, then we have LSE, then St Andrews/Edi right about the same as some of the UC/GTown and USC.

Super helpful and enlightening thread. Thank you. Not very often we see a decent back and forth conversation with pros and cons being discussed at this level without the typical my “school is better than your school” attitude prevalent here at DCUM….

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t really speak to the debate on rankings, but I have a kids that is a senior in the JDP program at WM/StA.

I get the impression that while WM kids compete for a spot in the JDP after acceptance to WM, it’s the opposite at StA. There, the JDP is treated as a first semester away option for the more competitive majors.

I will also add that there is a high level of academic rigor. My husband and I went to great schools (UVA) and my daughter’s workload at WM was tougher than anything I remember at UVA. She still did quite well first year (3.9) and said it was hard, buy not very hard.

Her first semester at StA was very hard. The writing, research and grade expectations were quite different. Essays that would be easy As at WM were C+ to Bs there. She learned to write A papers there but it was an adjustment, both in terms of the writing style, level of effort, and depth of research.

Anyway I am glad she went there because her writing and research skills improved quite a bit. And I understand if you go there outright, your first two years of grades count in terms of getting the credits to move into honors, but do not count towards their equivalent of a GPA.

All this to stay that UK school have very different expectations and grading systems compared to US schools and it is quite an adjustment. I recommend anyone considering these schools also consider if their kid is ready for that adjustment on top of the adjustment of college generally.

Great points. Which one off the JDPs was she in? Obviously different majors will have different requirements. The advantage of the sub honors years is that while the grading is much harder than the typical US essay review, those grades do not count for GPA. Only the 3rd and 4th year grades will count. You still have to pass. But you can pass with a 7/20. This gives a lot of American kids the time to adjust to the tougher grading and writing requirements before getting to the 3rd year.

She is/was in IR (she is back at WM). Unfortunately for the JDP, those sub-honors classes DO count toward the WM GPA, so I guess in that way, the program is harder. You also have to essentially do first year twice (once at each school).

I believe 7/20 is pass, but you cannot do 7/20 in all classes and expect to pass to honors. I believe the minimum credits mean your actual grades need to be a bit higher (11/20?). But don’t quote me, as my kids was may more focused on how it all translates back to WM.

yes I didn’t think about the JDP program GPA counting in the first two years. That makes sense.

As for St Andrews, Honors years are still 7/20 to pass. A 10 is equivalent to a 2:2. 13 is s 2:1 and >16 = First.
Between 7 and 10 you still pass your Honours modules, but with a third.

Got it! Thanks for explaining. I’ve seen references on the parent’s page but didn’t fully understand it.

Anonymous wrote:Hiring manager here for the person deciding about StA: St Andrews is very credible for STEM. We are very happy to hire STEM from St Andrews.

(NB: We do not hire any social sciences or other humanities degrees, simply because we are a STEM business. So I cannot speak to those other degrees at any college.)

Mind, other UK schools also are good for STEM - Edinburgh, Imperial, UCL, Oxbridge, ...

Thank you so much! And thank you to the prior posters as well; all very helpful, truly!

Hiring manager here for the person deciding about StA: St Andrews is very credible for STEM. We are very happy to hire STEM from St Andrews.

(NB: We do not hire any social sciences or other humanities degrees, simply because we are a STEM business. So I cannot speak to those other degrees at any college.)

Mind, other UK schools also are good for STEM - Edinburgh, Imperial, UCL, Oxbridge, ...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t really speak to the debate on rankings, but I have a kids that is a senior in the JDP program at WM/StA.

I get the impression that while WM kids compete for a spot in the JDP after acceptance to WM, it’s the opposite at StA. There, the JDP is treated as a first semester away option for the more competitive majors.

I will also add that there is a high level of academic rigor. My husband and I went to great schools (UVA) and my daughter’s workload at WM was tougher than anything I remember at UVA. She still did quite well first year (3.9) and said it was hard, buy not very hard.

Her first semester at StA was very hard. The writing, research and grade expectations were quite different. Essays that would be easy As at WM were C+ to Bs there. She learned to write A papers there but it was an adjustment, both in terms of the writing style, level of effort, and depth of research.

Anyway I am glad she went there because her writing and research skills improved quite a bit. And I understand if you go there outright, your first two years of grades count in terms of getting the credits to move into honors, but do not count towards their equivalent of a GPA.

All this to stay that UK school have very different expectations and grading systems compared to US schools and it is quite an adjustment. I recommend anyone considering these schools also consider if their kid is ready for that adjustment on top of the adjustment of college generally.

Great points. Which one off the JDPs was she in? Obviously different majors will have different requirements. The advantage of the sub honors years is that while the grading is much harder than the typical US essay review, those grades do not count for GPA. Only the 3rd and 4th year grades will count. You still have to pass. But you can pass with a 7/20. This gives a lot of American kids the time to adjust to the tougher grading and writing requirements before getting to the 3rd year.

She is/was in IR (she is back at WM). Unfortunately for the JDP, those sub-honors classes DO count toward the WM GPA, so I guess in that way, the program is harder. You also have to essentially do first year twice (once at each school).

I believe 7/20 is pass, but you cannot do 7/20 in all classes and expect to pass to honors. I believe the minimum credits mean your actual grades need to be a bit higher (11/20?). But don’t quote me, as my kids was may more focused on how it all translates back to WM.

yes I didn’t think about the JDP program GPA counting in the first two years. That makes sense.

As for St Andrews, Honors years are still 7/20 to pass. A 10 is equivalent to a 2:2. 13 is s 2:1 and >16 = First.
Between 7 and 10 you still pass your Honours modules, but with a third.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t really speak to the debate on rankings, but I have a kids that is a senior in the JDP program at WM/StA.

I get the impression that while WM kids compete for a spot in the JDP after acceptance to WM, it’s the opposite at StA. There, the JDP is treated as a first semester away option for the more competitive majors.

I will also add that there is a high level of academic rigor. My husband and I went to great schools (UVA) and my daughter’s workload at WM was tougher than anything I remember at UVA. She still did quite well first year (3.9) and said it was hard, buy not very hard.

Her first semester at StA was very hard. The writing, research and grade expectations were quite different. Essays that would be easy As at WM were C+ to Bs there. She learned to write A papers there but it was an adjustment, both in terms of the writing style, level of effort, and depth of research.

Anyway I am glad she went there because her writing and research skills improved quite a bit. And I understand if you go there outright, your first two years of grades count in terms of getting the credits to move into honors, but do not count towards their equivalent of a GPA.

All this to stay that UK school have very different expectations and grading systems compared to US schools and it is quite an adjustment. I recommend anyone considering these schools also consider if their kid is ready for that adjustment on top of the adjustment of college generally.

Great points. Which one off the JDPs was she in? Obviously different majors will have different requirements. The advantage of the sub honors years is that while the grading is much harder than the typical US essay review, those grades do not count for GPA. Only the 3rd and 4th year grades will count. You still have to pass. But you can pass with a 7/20. This gives a lot of American kids the time to adjust to the tougher grading and writing requirements before getting to the 3rd year.

She is/was in IR (she is back at WM). Unfortunately for the JDP, those sub-honors classes DO count toward the WM GPA, so I guess in that way, the program is harder. You also have to essentially do first year twice (once at each school).

I believe 7/20 is pass, but you cannot do 7/20 in all classes and expect to pass to honors. I believe the minimum credits mean your actual grades need to be a bit higher (11/20?). But don’t quote me, as my kids was may more focused on how it all translates back to WM.

Anonymous wrote:I can’t really speak to the debate on rankings, but I have a kids that is a senior in the JDP program at WM/StA.

I get the impression that while WM kids compete for a spot in the JDP after acceptance to WM, it’s the opposite at StA. There, the JDP is treated as a first semester away option for the more competitive majors.

I will also add that there is a high level of academic rigor. My husband and I went to great schools (UVA) and my daughter’s workload at WM was tougher than anything I remember at UVA. She still did quite well first year (3.9) and said it was hard, buy not very hard.

Her first semester at StA was very hard. The writing, research and grade expectations were quite different. Essays that would be easy As at WM were C+ to Bs there. She learned to write A papers there but it was an adjustment, both in terms of the writing style, level of effort, and depth of research.

Anyway I am glad she went there because her writing and research skills improved quite a bit. And I understand if you go there outright, your first two years of grades count in terms of getting the credits to move into honors, but do not count towards their equivalent of a GPA.

All this to stay that UK school have very different expectations and grading systems compared to US schools and it is quite an adjustment. I recommend anyone considering these schools also consider if their kid is ready for that adjustment on top of the adjustment of college generally.

Great points. Which one off the JDPs was she in? Obviously different majors will have different requirements. The advantage of the sub honors years is that while the grading is much harder than the typical US essay review, those grades do not count for GPA. Only the 3rd and 4th year grades will count. You still have to pass. But you can pass with a 7/20. This gives a lot of American kids the time to adjust to the tougher grading and writing requirements before getting to the 3rd year.

I can’t really speak to the debate on rankings, but I have a kids that is a senior in the JDP program at WM/StA.

I get the impression that while WM kids compete for a spot in the JDP after acceptance to WM, it’s the opposite at StA. There, the JDP is treated as a first semester away option for the more competitive majors.

I will also add that there is a high level of academic rigor. My husband and I went to great schools (UVA) and my daughter’s workload at WM was tougher than anything I remember at UVA. She still did quite well first year (3.9) and said it was hard, buy not very hard.

Her first semester at StA was very hard. The writing, research and grade expectations were quite different. Essays that would be easy As at WM were C+ to Bs there. She learned to write A papers there but it was an adjustment, both in terms of the writing style, level of effort, and depth of research.

Anyway I am glad she went there because her writing and research skills improved quite a bit. And I understand if you go there outright, your first two years of grades count in terms of getting the credits to move into honors, but do not count towards their equivalent of a GPA.

All this to stay that UK school have very different expectations and grading systems compared to US schools and it is quite an adjustment. I recommend anyone considering these schools also consider if their kid is ready for that adjustment on top of the adjustment of college generally.

Thank you, both! I'm the one who posted the UCAS points question, and I greatly appreciate your guidance.

I’m the OP. PP here is right to not focus specifically on just one specific variable on its own.

I also need to go back to my original post. I should have included St Andrews alongside #4 here since this is a US focused list. Clearly St Andrews has a great alumni network in the US and it is very helpful for those coming back to the US after going to school in the UK.

I did not include LSE on purpose on the list since it is a very niche school. But this what the list should be when including those two.

1. Oxford/Cambridge
2. Imperial/LSE
3. UCL
4. Edinburgh/King’s/St Andrews

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
To be clear, this doesn’t mean that universities outside this top group aren’t excellent. There are fantastic programs at Bath, Warwick, Bristol, St Andrews, etc. However, outside the UK, these six universities tend to be viewed by major employers and top universities as the most impressive and prestigious, with significantly stronger alumni networks:

1. Oxford/Cambridge
2. Imperial
3. UCL
4. Edinburgh/King’s

Thanks for posting this perspective. I posted about this in a different thread earlier today, and wanted to ask here as well: How much weight should we give to UCAS entry tariffs as an indicator of a UK university's prestige?

Context:

https://thetab.com/2024/09/10/these-are-the-hardest-uk-unis-to-get-into-right-now-based-on-how-many-ucas-points-you-need

The article states: "Oxbridge students need to deflate their egos and stop bragging about their Oxford and Cambridge being the hardest to get into. Oxford and Cambridge really aren’t the hardest unis to get into, based on UCAS points. Students at Oxford and Cambridge had an average of 203 and 208 UCAS points respectively. That’s below the University of St Andrews (212), the University of Glasgow (211), the University of Strathclyde (210) and Imperial College London (204)."

The author of this article went to Cambridge, and the publication itself was founded by three Cambridge students, so I don't imagine they have a pro St Andrews agenda. As for me, I have a degree from Oxford, but I have a kid with an offer in hand from the Faculty of Science at St Andrews, and am trying my best to help him with his decision. His other top choices are CU Bouilder's College of Engineering and Applied Science and UBC Vancouver's Faculty of Science.

As an American who went to high school in the US, I'm not terribly familiar with UCAS points, but would think it's at least a somewhat important metric?

Input welcome!

None of these variables should be looked at on its own. Tariff points are interesting if you are trying to assess the strength of the UK student population at these places. At the end of the day, 200 vs 212 is basically irrelevant. Anything above 200 means you will have a very good and smart class of UK students attending. Most of these courses with have AAA minimums to attend and about AAAAB Highers. This means your kid’s classmates will be the top of their respective “high schools”.

Also note in Scotland some schools like Edinburgh and St Andrews have a LOT less spots for Scottish students than Glasgow or Aberdeen as a % of the student body. Both are under 32% and that number is fixed. This means they only take the TOP Scottish students.

While an indication of strength of classmates, I would not rely on Tariff alone to rank anything. There is a lot more there that you need to assess a fit for your kid other than having smart kids around you.
Look at courses and their curriculum and then look at satisfaction rates and retention rates. Look at graduate prospects. Sure look at rankings, but each ranking focuses on different things. Look at quality of the professors at the program your kid is applying to. Look at number of kids per class is sub honors and honors years. If coming back to the US, look at the US Alumni base. You can check for alumns and where they work by searching LinkedIn in the US markets you are interested in. After all of these, regardless of what ANYBODY says here on DCUM, you will start to get a pretty good picture of where each program and university stands.

Anonymous wrote:
To be clear, this doesn’t mean that universities outside this top group aren’t excellent. There are fantastic programs at Bath, Warwick, Bristol, St Andrews, etc. However, outside the UK, these six universities tend to be viewed by major employers and top universities as the most impressive and prestigious, with significantly stronger alumni networks:

1. Oxford/Cambridge
2. Imperial
3. UCL
4. Edinburgh/King’s

Thanks for posting this perspective. I posted about this in a different thread earlier today, and wanted to ask here as well: How much weight should we give to UCAS entry tariffs as an indicator of a UK university's prestige?

Context:

https://thetab.com/2024/09/10/these-are-the-hardest-uk-unis-to-get-into-right-now-based-on-how-many-ucas-points-you-need

The article states: "Oxbridge students need to deflate their egos and stop bragging about their Oxford and Cambridge being the hardest to get into. Oxford and Cambridge really aren’t the hardest unis to get into, based on UCAS points. Students at Oxford and Cambridge had an average of 203 and 208 UCAS points respectively. That’s below the University of St Andrews (212), the University of Glasgow (211), the University of Strathclyde (210) and Imperial College London (204)."

The author of this article went to Cambridge, and the publication itself was founded by three Cambridge students, so I don't imagine they have a pro St Andrews agenda. As for me, I have a degree from Oxford, but I have a kid with an offer in hand from the Faculty of Science at St Andrews, and am trying my best to help him with his decision. His other top choices are CU Bouilder's College of Engineering and Applied Science and UBC Vancouver's Faculty of Science.

As an American who went to high school in the US, I'm not terribly familiar with UCAS points, but would think it's at least a somewhat important metric?

Input welcome!

Anonymous wrote:What is these UK schools deadlines to submit a deposit?

It varies for international students. If UCAS there is a specific date and no later than 5/14 I think for acceptance notifications. For others that you can apply direct like Irish schools or St Andrews and a few others they typically give you 4 weeks after accepting.