If I were 2 I’d much rather go to Target with a parent (feeling safe, calm and hopefully chatting a bit and absorbing content knowledge while also learning to tolerate silence) than in a typical daycare.

Few toddlers thrive when corralled from one activity to the next on someone else’s schedule while hoping another kid doesn’t bite them.

It's interesting to me that this thread is almost 20 pages long and no one has mentioned that a lot of the SAHP situations people are mentioning here (staying home for 1-3 years when kids are very young) are really just extended parental leaves and that in countries with better parental leave policies and a culture of people actually using leave there is no debate between SAHPs and working parents of babies or very young toddlers because you are not considered a SAHP just because you stayed home with your baby. Everyone stays home with babies (including men in some countries). It's normal to take extended leave from work with kids and then return to jobs when they are old enough to go to a preschool-like environment where they are walking and talking and interacting.

Like the US is one of the only countries in the world where mothers of 8 months old babies are going toe-to-toe over whether you should be a SAHP or a working mom at that age. In sane places it would be irrelevant which lifestyle you chose -- either way your baby would be home with either you or your spouse during that year.

I guess we have to pretend that actually it's normal or even good for babies to spend the first year of life in daycares or with paid caregivers because we live in a place that is insane and not family friendly? I genuinely don't want anyone to feel bad for going back to work. But come on. The rest of the world knows that babies are better off with their families during that first year.

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Anonymous wrote:It's an insensitive thing to say because as women we are all supposed to be empathetic to the fact that no matter what women do regarding work and motherhood someone is going to judge us and we're going to feel guilty.

But also I think people say this sometimes because they are just being honest and it's how they feel. Just like I think women who go back to work actually sometimes do it because they are bored out of their minds at home with babies and want to "use their brains." I also know women who have said that they went back to work because they believe their kids are better off being raised by nannies or caregivers who are "experts" as opposed to a sahm.

All of these things will be hurtful to hear to someone who made a different choice and they are also things people actually think and feel. Women are presented with this impossible choice (if they are fortunate to even have a choice at all which most are not) and there is no answer that will ever be right for everyone so we all do this dance with each other about our choices and we offend each other constantly because there's no way for us to all validate each other and ourselves at the same time unless we all make the same choice.

But we cannot all make the same choice because we are different people with different kids and different professions and different finances and different partners and different resources.

I just try to remember all that whenever I talk to other women about this stuff and when they say things that can be viewed as an insult to my choices. They aren't really talking about me. It's just about them. And that's fine.

But why do we need to be validating our own choices to other people? DH and I made the decisions right for our family (career choices, number of kids, where to live, what schools to send them to, etc.) based on our own personal life circumstances and priorities. I am under no illusion that our choices are the “best ever” or even “better” than what other families have chosen. But I am secure we’ve made decisions that make our family happy.

I can have a conversation with another parent who made different choices than me without needing to justify/explain things in a way that belittle their choices. For instance I have a friend who is a SAHM with a big law DH. When talking to her I 100% understand why it would be logistically a nightmare for her to try to be the primary parent for 3 kids and work since he is gone long hours. Whereas I work FT but my DH also has a super flexible remote job and can help with a lot of the morning routine, shuttling kids around, etc. We can both discuss our lives and the situational decisions we’ve made without making generalized conclusions that our choice is better than the other.

I feel sorry for those who lack the ability to understand their life choices are not necessarily the best choices for others and that we do not need validate ourselves at the expense of putting down others.

This is how most well adjusted people function. The rest don't see how classless they come off putting others down and getting snippy about the decisions of others. I do think there are also genuinely unaware people who are hyper focused on their own reasons (use my brain, raise my kids) that they say it out loud without meaning to imply insult or even that someone else isn't doing that. Honestly, most of us aren't so blatant but likely don't realize all the ways we've insulted others day to day. Still, some people do mean offense and it usually doesn't sting unless you are hearing a chorus of it. Funny enough, I've been hearing one resounding sentiment but from experience on this site, other women get the flip side advised to them by their family so I can understand their defensiveness.

You're almost there. When people talk about their own decisions, they are not putting others down. Others are interpreting other people's statements as if they are reflections upon themselves when other people are just talking about themselves. It is people's insecurity and self-absorption that causes people to be offended by other people's statements about their own situations. People are not classless when they talk about their own situation. People are insecure when they are offended when other people talk about their situation.

It isn't about you.

People’s choices are about them but sometimes the language encompasses other people’s behavior. Do you really not see the difference between “I wanted to spend time with my kids when they are little” and “ I didn’t want someone else raising my kids”?

By your logic doesn’t the bolded imply that the working parent doesn’t want to spend time with their kids when they’re little?

There is literally no way to have a conversation without offending people these days. I’d say most of you should stick to discussing the weather, but I’m sure it would take less than two minutes before someone makes it political and then everyone is taking it personally.

Your logic is wrong. I have made no statements about what other people do or don't want to do. Maybe that's the issue -- some people really cannot see the difference.

There is no difference. You’re just incorrect and too defensive/sensitive to admit it. Which tracks with you being offended about someone saying they want to raise their own kids (or don’t want someone else to raise their kids) in the first place.

I'm not defensive. You have poor logic. Under your logic, I can say absolutely nothing about what I like something and why I did something because it would suggest something about the other person?

This is *your* logic we are talking about, and clearly you are deeply confused. A random woman saying “I don’t want someone else raising my kids” has absolutely nothing to do with you (unless you have just offered to raise her kids).

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Anonymous wrote:As a reason for why one spouse chose not to work or works from home/at a flexible part time job? Or is this an acceptable turn of phrase?

It's an absolutely valid statement. Many of my friends didn't want their children to be raised by strangers, some had the privilege to do it themselves or get family to support while others had to send them to daycare or leave them with nannies.

You could also hear, instead, "I was paranoid that I would feel like someone else was raising my kids"

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Anonymous wrote:It is not an acceptable turn of phrase.

But I am not offended because it shows the low character of the speaker. Just as if they had said they work FT because “I wanted to use my brain”

I mean, its rude. But there's also an element of truth to it.

I know that's a taboo opinion (albeit a more popular opinion that most want to admit).

Kids are meant to be with their parents during those formative years. Not outsourced.

I know one women who brags how she paid people to potty train her kids. WTF did she even have kids for

Weird all those working dads

There is some truth to it. No I’m not offended.

Not considering my children's benefit from my being a SAHM when they were born and very young, I am so grateful that I MYSELF was able to be home with my kids. I would have missed experiencing so much and my life is so much richer for that experience. It makes me sad that my husband did not get to experience the same and I will be forever grateful to him for enabling me to have that time.

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Anonymous wrote:Is it rude to say I didn't want to be a SAHP because I wanted my kids to be raise in a stimulating environment instead of spending their days watching tv and running errands to Costco.

You're just talking about how YOU would be as a SAHP, not how all or most SAHPs are. Maybe your best if you were to SAH would be to turn on TV and take kids to Costco but that certainly doesn't describe the SAHPs I know.

I was a sahm for a couple years and actually there were some days that were mostly running errands to places like Target. This isn't really the point though. I didn't feel the need to fill my days with "enrichment activities" because the reason I stayed home was simply to spend time with my DD and and enjoy that time together. No I did not teach her to speak french or do pirouettes and she still has normal kid issues like picky eating or sometimes being shy at the playground or whatever. I didn't stay home with her to optimize her as a person. It wasn't to play the long game on college apps.

I just really loved hanging out with her and I though it would be great for both of us and our relationship if we got a couple years of togetherness. So yes I took her grocery shopping and to Target and to get oil changed. I also took her to the park and to museums. I also hung out at home with her. Yes I sometimes let her watch TV while I made dinner or just took a break and no it was not exclusively high minded educational programming. I limited screen time but still used it sometimes.

She's a really great kid. She is actually a whiz at school though I don't think that has much to do with me being a sahm for a time -- I think she's just a bright kid who likes school and that would have happened regardless. She's also on the shy side and slow to warm and I also think that was fairly inevitable too -- it's just her personality and she was like that as a baby too. I'd take her to mommy and me stuff and she'd hang back from the other babies and play on her own. I don't think you can fundamentally alter a child's nature by staying home or putting them in childcare.

But we have a great relationship. She trusts me and we communicate really well. She feels really loved and accepted and safe at home. I think you can give a kid this without staying home but staying home is how I gave my kid this. No regrets. I also personally really enjoyed it. If I had hated it then I would have just gone back to work and found another way to build our relationship and trust.

This isn't rocket science. I don't judge anyone else for their choices. I think it's weird how some of you are talking about being a sahm though -- as though all sahms are either aggressively optimizing childhood 24-7 or they are uneducated dullards planting kids in front of the TV. I don't know anyone who fits either of those descriptions and they feel like weird fantasies you are projecting because of your own issues and feelings about motherhood.

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Anonymous wrote:I get it, because it’s true, even if people don’t want to admit that’s what’s happening when children are in full-time daycare. But in polite society we avoid saying things that might hurt someone’s feelings, regardless of whether it’s truthful or not.

But it’s not truthful. My kids went to daycare, and, sure, their daycare teachers, who were all wonderful, provided care during the workday. But my spouse and I made the decisions on how to parent, which included finding great caregivers.

If your children go to daycare for 10-11 (7-6 or 7:30-5:30) hours a day for the first 4-5 years of life and sleep 10-12 hours a night then you are not spending 4-5 hours with them each day 70% of the week. How is this controversial? You are outsourcing a lot of parenting duties to other caregivers. Someone saying that they don’t want to do that is not wrong. And I’m saying this as a full time working parent.

I actually did the math with my neighbor who was a SAHM and I did spend more 1-1 time with my kids than she did.

1st. My H's time counted and I know many of SAHP's who are the 1st to tell you that their H does nothing, works late, travels a lot.
2nd: She did not take into account napping, time in front of TV, time they were in the basement playing and she was futzing around.

I don't think a SAHP should be connected at the hip and I think that independent time is valuable but the reality is she was not spending more 1-1 time with her child than I was.

Whether you are currently working or staying home, I hope you aren't tutoring your DC in math.

Oh did I hurt your feelings to learn I might spend more quality time with my kids than you do?

NP but I can assure you, you do NOT spend more time with your kids than a SAHP. It's impossible. "Quality" time is debatable but in your initial post you didn't say quality time you said 1-1 time.

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Anonymous wrote:I get it, because it’s true, even if people don’t want to admit that’s what’s happening when children are in full-time daycare. But in polite society we avoid saying things that might hurt someone’s feelings, regardless of whether it’s truthful or not.

But it’s not truthful. My kids went to daycare, and, sure, their daycare teachers, who were all wonderful, provided care during the workday. But my spouse and I made the decisions on how to parent, which included finding great caregivers.

If your children go to daycare for 10-11 (7-6 or 7:30-5:30) hours a day for the first 4-5 years of life and sleep 10-12 hours a night then you are not spending 4-5 hours with them each day 70% of the week. How is this controversial? You are outsourcing a lot of parenting duties to other caregivers. Someone saying that they don’t want to do that is not wrong. And I’m saying this as a full time working parent.

I actually did the math with my neighbor who was a SAHM and I did spend more 1-1 time with my kids than she did.

1st. My H's time counted and I know many of SAHP's who are the 1st to tell you that their H does nothing, works late, travels a lot.
2nd: She did not take into account napping, time in front of TV, time they were in the basement playing and she was futzing around.

I don't think a SAHP should be connected at the hip and I think that independent time is valuable but the reality is she was not spending more 1-1 time with her child than I was.

I think you are mistaken. There's just simply not a chance that you spend more 1-1 time with kids than a SAHP unless the SAHP is outsourcing a ton of childcare. Your kids never play in the basement or nap or watch TV when you're with them? And how much time during the day are the SAHP neighbor's kids doing that? 2 hrs out of a 8+ hour work day...your math isn't mathing.

Anonymous wrote:Is it rude to say I didn't want to be a SAHP because I wanted my kids to be raise in a stimulating environment instead of spending their days watching tv and running errands to Costco.

You're just talking about how YOU would be as a SAHP, not how all or most SAHPs are. Maybe your best if you were to SAH would be to turn on TV and take kids to Costco but that certainly doesn't describe the SAHPs I know.

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Anonymous wrote:As a reason for why one spouse chose not to work or works from home/at a flexible part time job? Or is this an acceptable turn of phrase?

It's an absolutely valid statement. Many of my friends didn't want their children to be raised by strangers, some had the privilege to do it themselves or get family to support while others had to send them to daycare or leave them with nannies.

It might be shocking to the SAHP crew, but have you ever considered it’s actually developmentally superior for a few hours of the day for the child not to be attached to the parent at the hip?

SAH doesn't mean the kid is attached at the hip, just like going to child care doesn't mean neglect.

I agree, which is why I don't think SAHP spend that much 1-1 time with kids, definitely not more than working parents.

Of course SAHPs spend more 1-1 time with their kids than working parents. How would someone who isn't with their kids 40+ hours a week spend the same amount of time with their kids as someone who is staying home with their kids and not working?

These conversations are exhausting because if you're a person who actually didn't have better choices than working and day care, you'll probably get a lecture on how another household with a SAHP just made financial sacrifices instead of buying a big house, going out to restaurants, buying new cars, etc. Never mind that these "sacrifices" were made on a single, stable income that was 3x your entire HHI, you had both your kids in apartments with no dishwasher or washer/dryer, you never ate out, etc. Probably just should have been more responsible (aka going to law school).

I have childfree, sahm and wohm friends. If we say, "I did x because I didn't want Y," we assume it is a personal, individual decision and not meant to cast judgement on anyone who did Y who can hear the statement. It's not always about you, people.

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Anonymous wrote:As a reason for why one spouse chose not to work or works from home/at a flexible part time job? Or is this an acceptable turn of phrase?

It's an absolutely valid statement. Many of my friends didn't want their children to be raised by strangers, some had the privilege to do it themselves or get family to support while others had to send them to daycare or leave them with nannies.

It might be shocking to the SAHP crew, but have you ever considered it’s actually developmentally superior for a few hours of the day for the child not to be attached to the parent at the hip?

is 8+ hours a day "a few" to you? Most young kids sleep at least 10-12 hours a day. If you are working for 8 hours and they are sleeping for 12, you are simply not spending much time with them.