Anonymous wrote:There is a middle ground between requiring 8th grade geometry to apply to TJ and not counting math level at all. Kids should be allowed to apply to TJ with 8th grade Algebra, but only being in Algebra I should be a negative in the application.

Anonymous wrote:https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028

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Anonymous wrote:What do you mean when you say top students? All As or something else.

Someone posted on here there were rejections of kids who qualified for USAJMO in 7th grade. This is a contest that takes around the top 100 math students in the country. And that is among 10th graders and below.
7th or 8th grader to make this in Virginia is rare, but they couldn't find room in a class of 500. They also reject5 winners of MathCounts, Science Olympiad, and other contests.
Really anyone who qualifies for the earlier round AIME should be accepted.

Followup- I described the top students statewide who were getting rejected. But TJ has a minimum quota per school and selects from within a school first. By top students I am looking at top MathCounts students who qualify for state, vs your all A students that are just OK at math, taking geometry or maybe algebra 1. Last year- the school had students who didn't accept four algebra 2 kids, one qualified for MathCounts nationals, another was in top 12 at MathCounts State, another was on a top team at state MathCounts and won awards in computer programming, another won lots of awards in chess rated 2000+. The students who were accepted probably had all As but were not known as standout students. One was plausible- an Algebra 2 student who was solid on the MathCounts team but not winning at the chapter level. Almost all accepted were Asian so it not a racial factor as many are suggesting.

The proposal I've had for some time to enhance the present admissions process is to create a standardized teacher recommendation form asking teachers to evaluate applicants against students in their own class.

So essentially, design a form that lets teachers rate the students across a broad spectrum of metrics:
- command of the material
- academic integrity
- commitment to learning for its own sake
- contributions to the overall class environment
- intellectual curiosity in STEM
-
- etc.

... using a rating scale including "Poor", "Below Average", "Average", "Above Average", "Superior", and "One of the best I've seen". But the key is that the teacher should be evaluating the students more or less against each other, so that when an application evaluator is reviewing a batch from, say, a Geometry teacher at Carson, they should be seeing ratings across the spectrum. If that teacher is rating every student as "Superior" or higher, it becomes clear that that teacher's evaluations aren't to be taken seriously.

A recommendation form of this type should take no more than 5 minutes to fill out at most. I'd also invite the opportunity for each teacher recommender to select a maximum of 3-5 students to write more expansively about if they so chose - whether to encourage the admissions personnel to admit the student or, perhaps equally importantly, to let them know to avoid a student who, for example, cheated on an assignment or would otherwise contribute negatively to the TJ environment.

PP, would you agree that a process like the above would enhance the likelihood that the right 45 students or so were selected from places like Carson, Longfellow, Rocky Run, etc?

NO. What if the teacher does not like a child even if that child is exceptional. I rather have my kids taking tests, but no to any teacher's opinion!

Why doesn't the teacher like your child? And do you honestly think that teachers have an agenda to punish children that they just "don't like"?

Well, it's hard to imagine that the anti-asian sentiment displayed by former teachers during the hearings popped into existence only after retirement.
There is a real resentment by some teachers in this area because asians are crowding out white kids.

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Anonymous wrote:What do you mean when you say top students? All As or something else.

Someone posted on here there were rejections of kids who qualified for USAJMO in 7th grade. This is a contest that takes around the top 100 math students in the country. And that is among 10th graders and below.
7th or 8th grader to make this in Virginia is rare, but they couldn't find room in a class of 500. They also reject5 winners of MathCounts, Science Olympiad, and other contests.
Really anyone who qualifies for the earlier round AIME should be accepted.

Followup- I described the top students statewide who were getting rejected. But TJ has a minimum quota per school and selects from within a school first. By top students I am looking at top MathCounts students who qualify for state, vs your all A students that are just OK at math, taking geometry or maybe algebra 1. Last year- the school had students who didn't accept four algebra 2 kids, one qualified for MathCounts nationals, another was in top 12 at MathCounts State, another was on a top team at state MathCounts and won awards in computer programming, another won lots of awards in chess rated 2000+. The students who were accepted probably had all As but were not known as standout students. One was plausible- an Algebra 2 student who was solid on the MathCounts team but not winning at the chapter level. Almost all accepted were Asian so it not a racial factor as many are suggesting.

The proposal I've had for some time to enhance the present admissions process is to create a standardized teacher recommendation form asking teachers to evaluate applicants against students in their own class.

So essentially, design a form that lets teachers rate the students across a broad spectrum of metrics:
- command of the material
- academic integrity
- commitment to learning for its own sake
- contributions to the overall class environment
- intellectual curiosity in STEM
-
- etc.

... using a rating scale including "Poor", "Below Average", "Average", "Above Average", "Superior", and "One of the best I've seen". But the key is that the teacher should be evaluating the students more or less against each other, so that when an application evaluator is reviewing a batch from, say, a Geometry teacher at Carson, they should be seeing ratings across the spectrum. If that teacher is rating every student as "Superior" or higher, it becomes clear that that teacher's evaluations aren't to be taken seriously.

A recommendation form of this type should take no more than 5 minutes to fill out at most. I'd also invite the opportunity for each teacher recommender to select a maximum of 3-5 students to write more expansively about if they so chose - whether to encourage the admissions personnel to admit the student or, perhaps equally importantly, to let them know to avoid a student who, for example, cheated on an assignment or would otherwise contribute negatively to the TJ environment.

PP, would you agree that a process like the above would enhance the likelihood that the right 45 students or so were selected from places like Carson, Longfellow, Rocky Run, etc?

NO. What if the teacher does not like a child even if that child is exceptional. I rather have my kids taking tests, but no to any teacher's opinion!

Why doesn't the teacher like your child? And do you honestly think that teachers have an agenda to punish children that they just "don't like"?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you mean when you say top students? All As or something else.

Someone posted on here there were rejections of kids who qualified for USAJMO in 7th grade. This is a contest that takes around the top 100 math students in the country. And that is among 10th graders and below.
7th or 8th grader to make this in Virginia is rare, but they couldn't find room in a class of 500. They also reject5 winners of MathCounts, Science Olympiad, and other contests.
Really anyone who qualifies for the earlier round AIME should be accepted.

Followup- I described the top students statewide who were getting rejected. But TJ has a minimum quota per school and selects from within a school first. By top students I am looking at top MathCounts students who qualify for state, vs your all A students that are just OK at math, taking geometry or maybe algebra 1. Last year- the school had students who didn't accept four algebra 2 kids, one qualified for MathCounts nationals, another was in top 12 at MathCounts State, another was on a top team at state MathCounts and won awards in computer programming, another won lots of awards in chess rated 2000+. The students who were accepted probably had all As but were not known as standout students. One was plausible- an Algebra 2 student who was solid on the MathCounts team but not winning at the chapter level. Almost all accepted were Asian so it not a racial factor as many are suggesting.

The proposal I've had for some time to enhance the present admissions process is to create a standardized teacher recommendation form asking teachers to evaluate applicants against students in their own class.

So essentially, design a form that lets teachers rate the students across a broad spectrum of metrics:
- command of the material
- academic integrity
- commitment to learning for its own sake
- contributions to the overall class environment
- intellectual curiosity in STEM
-
- etc.

... using a rating scale including "Poor", "Below Average", "Average", "Above Average", "Superior", and "One of the best I've seen". But the key is that the teacher should be evaluating the students more or less against each other, so that when an application evaluator is reviewing a batch from, say, a Geometry teacher at Carson, they should be seeing ratings across the spectrum. If that teacher is rating every student as "Superior" or higher, it becomes clear that that teacher's evaluations aren't to be taken seriously.

A recommendation form of this type should take no more than 5 minutes to fill out at most. I'd also invite the opportunity for each teacher recommender to select a maximum of 3-5 students to write more expansively about if they so chose - whether to encourage the admissions personnel to admit the student or, perhaps equally importantly, to let them know to avoid a student who, for example, cheated on an assignment or would otherwise contribute negatively to the TJ environment.

PP, would you agree that a process like the above would enhance the likelihood that the right 45 students or so were selected from places like Carson, Longfellow, Rocky Run, etc?

Teachers would get sued.

I see the value of teacher recommendation, but it cannot be the only thing - too subjective.

Selection processes are and must be subjective. An objective selection process incentivizes parents to narrowly tailor their child's middle school experience to meet the standard and results in homogeneity among the selected population - the former is destructive for kids, and the latter is terrible for school environments.

Parents in this area need to stop wanting an explicit road map for how to get their child into TJ. Such a road map was provided with the old process, and the result was devastating for the health of high-achieving children in Northern Virginia.

It can be a combination. Why not allow essays and a test and experience factors?

Honestly, I think this can work, as long as a few things are the case:

1) The process MUST remain subjective and holistic in nature;
2) The exam, in whatever form it takes, must be one of many factors that is considered and cannot be an absolute gatekeeper in the way that it was with the previous process (i.e. brilliant kids who are poor test-takers must still have a way to get in);
3) The exam scores cannot be made publicly available in any way, so that folks operating in bad faith cannot FOIA the results and use them as evidence to suggest that the standards for one racial group to be admitted are different from another;
4) The exam scores are contextualized against the rest of the academic profile of the student (i.e. a theoretical 90 from a kid in Alg1 would be much more impressive than a 92 from a kid in Alg2).

Anonymous wrote:There is a middle ground between requiring 8th grade geometry to apply to TJ and not counting math level at all. Kids should be allowed to apply to TJ with 8th grade Algebra, but only being in Algebra I should be a negative in the application.

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Anonymous wrote:My 8th grader is in Algebra 1 and thinks Math would be tough at TJ, especially since calculus is required. How to convince them to accept the offer? Is it that difficult from base school?

If you want to convince them, you could point out that they would likely take calculus at their base school. If you have the money, you could agree to pay for tutoring/afterschooling in math.

Don't FCPS base schools allow graduation with just Algebra 2? No need for calculus at base school, but TJ requires it?

TJ is a magnate school with different expectations. When you apply to TJ, you apply understanding that you will be taking math and science classes that are more intense and involved. A look at the math catalog shows that the math class are mainly one semester long and are not labeled Geometry, Algebra 2, and the like. Talking to the students at TJ points to math classes that are compacted and intense.

If you want to take the same classes you would take at yoru base school, don't apply to TJ, go to your base school. If you want to be challenged in math and science, apply for TJ knowing that the standards are different.

You would not apply to attend MIT and get there and go "But why do I have to take different classes that are harder then UVA?" Same for TJ. You apply for TJ to attend TJ with compacted math, Calculus as a bse requirement for graduation, and more challenging science offerings.

But, they changes their admissions. They should also change their expectations and requirements. It's just unfair to expect the same from kids finishing Alg 1 and kids finishing Alg 2.

No, kids finishing Algebra 1 in 8th grade should be in a position to take Calculus at their base school. It is not a requirement but it is a potential end point for a kid.

Base school progression

8th grade Algebra 1
9th grade Geometry
10 grade Algebra 2
11 grade Pre Calculus
12 Grade Calculus

The compressed math at TJ means that those same kids should be in a position to take Calculus earlier at TJ. If I am understanding correctly Geometry and Algebra 2 are both semester long classes.

If you don't think your child is capable of taking Calculus, they don't belong at TJ.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:My 8th grader is in Algebra 1 and thinks Math would be tough at TJ, especially since calculus is required. How to convince them to accept the offer? Is it that difficult from base school?

If you want to convince them, you could point out that they would likely take calculus at their base school. If you have the money, you could agree to pay for tutoring/afterschooling in math.

Don't FCPS base schools allow graduation with just Algebra 2? No need for calculus at base school, but TJ requires it?

TJ is a magnate school with different expectations. When you apply to TJ, you apply understanding that you will be taking math and science classes that are more intense and involved. A look at the math catalog shows that the math class are mainly one semester long and are not labeled Geometry, Algebra 2, and the like. Talking to the students at TJ points to math classes that are compacted and intense.

If you want to take the same classes you would take at yoru base school, don't apply to TJ, go to your base school. If you want to be challenged in math and science, apply for TJ knowing that the standards are different.

You would not apply to attend MIT and get there and go "But why do I have to take different classes that are harder then UVA?" Same for TJ. You apply for TJ to attend TJ with compacted math, Calculus as a bse requirement for graduation, and more challenging science offerings.

But, TJ is a public HS not an elite college. The current system basically setups the non-AAP and Alp 1 students to fail. Why take them in and keep them at the bottom?

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:My 8th grader is in Algebra 1 and thinks Math would be tough at TJ, especially since calculus is required. How to convince them to accept the offer? Is it that difficult from base school?

If you want to convince them, you could point out that they would likely take calculus at their base school. If you have the money, you could agree to pay for tutoring/afterschooling in math.

Don't FCPS base schools allow graduation with just Algebra 2? No need for calculus at base school, but TJ requires it?

TJ is a magnate school with different expectations. When you apply to TJ, you apply understanding that you will be taking math and science classes that are more intense and involved. A look at the math catalog shows that the math class are mainly one semester long and are not labeled Geometry, Algebra 2, and the like. Talking to the students at TJ points to math classes that are compacted and intense.

If you want to take the same classes you would take at yoru base school, don't apply to TJ, go to your base school. If you want to be challenged in math and science, apply for TJ knowing that the standards are different.

You would not apply to attend MIT and get there and go "But why do I have to take different classes that are harder then UVA?" Same for TJ. You apply for TJ to attend TJ with compacted math, Calculus as a bse requirement for graduation, and more challenging science offerings.

But, they changes their admissions. They should also change their expectations and requirements. It's just unfair to expect the same from kids finishing Alg 1 and kids finishing Alg 2.

No, kids finishing Algebra 1 in 8th grade should be in a position to take Calculus at their base school. It is not a requirement but it is a potential end point for a kid.

Base school progression

8th grade Algebra 1
9th grade Geometry
10 grade Algebra 2
11 grade Pre Calculus
12 Grade Calculus

The compressed math at TJ means that those same kids should be in a position to take Calculus earlier at TJ. If I am understanding correctly Geometry and Algebra 2 are both semester long classes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 8th grader is in Algebra 1 and thinks Math would be tough at TJ, especially since calculus is required. How to convince them to accept the offer? Is it that difficult from base school?

If you want to convince them, you could point out that they would likely take calculus at their base school. If you have the money, you could agree to pay for tutoring/afterschooling in math.

Don't FCPS base schools allow graduation with just Algebra 2? No need for calculus at base school, but TJ requires it?

TJ is a magnate school with different expectations. When you apply to TJ, you apply understanding that you will be taking math and science classes that are more intense and involved. A look at the math catalog shows that the math class are mainly one semester long and are not labeled Geometry, Algebra 2, and the like. Talking to the students at TJ points to math classes that are compacted and intense.

If you want to take the same classes you would take at yoru base school, don't apply to TJ, go to your base school. If you want to be challenged in math and science, apply for TJ knowing that the standards are different.

You would not apply to attend MIT and get there and go "But why do I have to take different classes that are harder then UVA?" Same for TJ. You apply for TJ to attend TJ with compacted math, Calculus as a bse requirement for graduation, and more challenging science offerings.

But, they changes their admissions. They should also change their expectations and requirements. It's just unfair to expect the same from kids finishing Alg 1 and kids finishing Alg 2.