Anonymous wrote:Between school and housing policies Alexandria is looking to take the fast path to becoming the next Baltimore.

Anonymous wrote:So, to summarize:

the housing proposal will overburden Alexandria infrastructure
even though it won't result in a meaningful increase in units
and the units will cost too much for poor people to be able to afford
although the poor people aren't actually poor
and there has to be parking for them because poor people have trucks they drive for work
but also affordable units should not be in SFH neighborhoods far from transit because poor people take the bus
and also there shouldn't be bike lanes because poor people don't drive, they take the bus
but bus lanes won't do anything because people don't take the bus, they drive,
but...

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Anonymous wrote:This is one building (The Blake on Beauregard) and just the availability of 2 bedroom units available immediately- ie- today.

https://8934213.onlineleasing.realpage.com/#k=95825

That's 45 units. They also have studios, one bed units, and 2+den units so lets be conservative and say there are 100 units available in just this one building.

Where is the crisis? Where is the shortage?

Seriously- someone ELI5- where is the crisis? Why are these units not OK but ones built in Del Ray would be the cure all?

Can anyone answer that?

If not, maybe we don't change the entire zoning code, mmm'kay?

It's 42 units, total, in a building with 300 units. Starting with $2000-$3000/month for a 519 sf studio.

Noting, also, that units turn over all the time. There should be units available for rent. The existence of units that are available for rent does not negate the existence of a housing crisis.

No, that is incorrect. There are 42, two bedroom units availbale right now. If you add the one bed and studios in too, it's easily 100 units.

Would you have us believe that the proposed Del Ray 4 plexes will rent for less than these?

Or do you think people have the right to live exactly where they please for exactly the price they deem affordable?

And if units turn all the time, well then, great. That shows mobility in the housing market, which is a chief indicator of abundance.

So, again, where is the crisis?

I clicked on your link and posted the information I found there, which included all units, not just 2 bedroom units..

Your idea that mobility in the housing market is a chief indicator of abundance is, well, a novel economic idea. The more standard economic idea is that price is the chief indicator of supply vs. demand.

Now, if you want to make a normative argument, for example, "I believe it's just fine if people who don't have a lot of money have to spend a large proportion of their income in order to live in tiny spaces in unpleasant or dangerous areas far from where they work, and actually it would be even better if they just went away altogether", feel free, but that's a normative argument, not a data argument.

Serious question. What is your plan to create a socialist utopia where this does not happen? What would Alexandria do and look like? How would it be paid for?

I think it says a lot about your beliefs that you think anywhere where poor people have decent housing in safe neighborhoods close to jobs is some kind of unaffordable "socialist utopia".

You are avoiding the questions. How does this happen in Alexandria? And it is a “socialist utopia” because the plan to make this happen in urban settings will inevitably involve government taking of private land and providing some sort of social welfare. If the wealthy leave you get Baltimore or Detroit and no jobs with an abundance of housing. Even big houses.

You don’t seem to understand the basic idea of missing middle. The whole point is to increase supply of housing units overall thus leading to downward pressure on overall prices.

Right, but that doesn’t work. That’s illusory. How does building a 4-plex on a lot that cost $1.5 million to procure decrease prices? It may on condos, but it increases SFH prices. Should no one live in a SFH?

A four-unit building increases the supply of housing by three units, compared to a one-unit building.

3 $750k units does what for those workers living in cramped spaces you alluded to earlier? Your argument makes 0 sense.

The concept of supply and demand is used to explain how price is influenced by the supply of goods and services available and the demand for those products. When supply decreases, the price of the good increases. Inversely, when the supply of the good increases, the price falls. A similar relationship exists between price and demand. When the demand for the good increases, the price of the good also increases. When the demand decreases, the price of the good falls with it.

Assuming the goods are fungible. A $350k home is not the same as a $750k home.

There is a market for housing. The market for housing is a market. The market for housing includes supply and demand, with price as an indicator, because it is a market.

The existence of a market doesn't mean the goods are fungible. A 4BR home is not the same as a 2BR home. You can't buy two 2BR homes as a substitute for a 4BR home.

Who has said housing is fungible? How is it relevant whether or not housing is fungible?

Because the argument of this thread is that any increase in housing supply will lower housing prices. That's unlikely. You are only going to affect specific segments of the market. Building an apartment building isn't going to lower the prices of SFHs. Those two types of dwellings are not equal.

There might be a few people who will only choose one specific type of housing, no matter what the location or cost or any other characteristic. ("I will NEVER live in a detached one-household house, not even if I inherit a mansion in a perfect location that will only cost me $1 a year!" or "I will ONLY live in a detached one-household house, even if the only one available is in the middle of a Superfund site and costs me $1 billion a year!") But there aren't many. Everyone else makes trade-offs.

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Anonymous wrote:Here you go for your upzoning. ADU built in the backyard of someone near Beverly Hills area that is a two story, 2 bd/2ba 931 sq ft house for rent for $3,000.

Eat your heart out. So affordable!!!

https://www.zillow.com/homes/821-Summit-Ave-.num.A-Alexandria,-VA-22302_rb/2055841832_zpid/

That's great news. There used to be one housing unit on the parcel, now there are two.

And it looks cute too! Although I don't get the sink/minifridge/microwave thing.

So your position is to build housing for the sake of building housing not to make housing affordable, desegregate, or some other made-up reason? I commend you owning this instead of couching it all in some greater social good gaslighting.

Do you think adding to the supply of housing increases the price of housing?

I do not think adding housing decreases the cost of housing/rent in Alexandria. Alexandria has added 5898 units in the last five years. There was just a protest outside Potomac West Apartments because they are increasing rent. The cost of housing has steadily risen despite almost 6000 new units.

How much would the cost of housing have risen without those almost 6000 new units?

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Anonymous wrote:This is one building (The Blake on Beauregard) and just the availability of 2 bedroom units available immediately- ie- today.

https://8934213.onlineleasing.realpage.com/#k=95825

That's 45 units. They also have studios, one bed units, and 2+den units so lets be conservative and say there are 100 units available in just this one building.

Where is the crisis? Where is the shortage?

Seriously- someone ELI5- where is the crisis? Why are these units not OK but ones built in Del Ray would be the cure all?

Can anyone answer that?

If not, maybe we don't change the entire zoning code, mmm'kay?

It's 42 units, total, in a building with 300 units. Starting with $2000-$3000/month for a 519 sf studio.

Noting, also, that units turn over all the time. There should be units available for rent. The existence of units that are available for rent does not negate the existence of a housing crisis.

No, that is incorrect. There are 42, two bedroom units availbale right now. If you add the one bed and studios in too, it's easily 100 units.

Would you have us believe that the proposed Del Ray 4 plexes will rent for less than these?

Or do you think people have the right to live exactly where they please for exactly the price they deem affordable?

And if units turn all the time, well then, great. That shows mobility in the housing market, which is a chief indicator of abundance.

So, again, where is the crisis?

I clicked on your link and posted the information I found there, which included all units, not just 2 bedroom units..

Your idea that mobility in the housing market is a chief indicator of abundance is, well, a novel economic idea. The more standard economic idea is that price is the chief indicator of supply vs. demand.

Now, if you want to make a normative argument, for example, "I believe it's just fine if people who don't have a lot of money have to spend a large proportion of their income in order to live in tiny spaces in unpleasant or dangerous areas far from where they work, and actually it would be even better if they just went away altogether", feel free, but that's a normative argument, not a data argument.

Serious question. What is your plan to create a socialist utopia where this does not happen? What would Alexandria do and look like? How would it be paid for?

I think it says a lot about your beliefs that you think anywhere where poor people have decent housing in safe neighborhoods close to jobs is some kind of unaffordable "socialist utopia".

You are avoiding the questions. How does this happen in Alexandria? And it is a “socialist utopia” because the plan to make this happen in urban settings will inevitably involve government taking of private land and providing some sort of social welfare. If the wealthy leave you get Baltimore or Detroit and no jobs with an abundance of housing. Even big houses.

You don’t seem to understand the basic idea of missing middle. The whole point is to increase supply of housing units overall thus leading to downward pressure on overall prices.

Right, but that doesn’t work. That’s illusory. How does building a 4-plex on a lot that cost $1.5 million to procure decrease prices? It may on condos, but it increases SFH prices. Should no one live in a SFH?

A four-unit building increases the supply of housing by three units, compared to a one-unit building.

3 $750k units does what for those workers living in cramped spaces you alluded to earlier? Your argument makes 0 sense.

The concept of supply and demand is used to explain how price is influenced by the supply of goods and services available and the demand for those products. When supply decreases, the price of the good increases. Inversely, when the supply of the good increases, the price falls. A similar relationship exists between price and demand. When the demand for the good increases, the price of the good also increases. When the demand decreases, the price of the good falls with it.

Assuming the goods are fungible. A $350k home is not the same as a $750k home.

There is a market for housing. The market for housing is a market. The market for housing includes supply and demand, with price as an indicator, because it is a market.

The existence of a market doesn't mean the goods are fungible. A 4BR home is not the same as a 2BR home. You can't buy two 2BR homes as a substitute for a 4BR home.

Who has said housing is fungible? How is it relevant whether or not housing is fungible?

Because the argument of this thread is that any increase in housing supply will lower housing prices. That's unlikely. You are only going to affect specific segments of the market. Building an apartment building isn't going to lower the prices of SFHs. Those two types of dwellings are not equal.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is one building (The Blake on Beauregard) and just the availability of 2 bedroom units available immediately- ie- today.

https://8934213.onlineleasing.realpage.com/#k=95825

That's 45 units. They also have studios, one bed units, and 2+den units so lets be conservative and say there are 100 units available in just this one building.

Where is the crisis? Where is the shortage?

Seriously- someone ELI5- where is the crisis? Why are these units not OK but ones built in Del Ray would be the cure all?

Can anyone answer that?

If not, maybe we don't change the entire zoning code, mmm'kay?

It's 42 units, total, in a building with 300 units. Starting with $2000-$3000/month for a 519 sf studio.

Noting, also, that units turn over all the time. There should be units available for rent. The existence of units that are available for rent does not negate the existence of a housing crisis.

No, that is incorrect. There are 42, two bedroom units availbale right now. If you add the one bed and studios in too, it's easily 100 units.

Would you have us believe that the proposed Del Ray 4 plexes will rent for less than these?

Or do you think people have the right to live exactly where they please for exactly the price they deem affordable?

And if units turn all the time, well then, great. That shows mobility in the housing market, which is a chief indicator of abundance.

So, again, where is the crisis?

I clicked on your link and posted the information I found there, which included all units, not just 2 bedroom units..

Your idea that mobility in the housing market is a chief indicator of abundance is, well, a novel economic idea. The more standard economic idea is that price is the chief indicator of supply vs. demand.

Now, if you want to make a normative argument, for example, "I believe it's just fine if people who don't have a lot of money have to spend a large proportion of their income in order to live in tiny spaces in unpleasant or dangerous areas far from where they work, and actually it would be even better if they just went away altogether", feel free, but that's a normative argument, not a data argument.

Serious question. What is your plan to create a socialist utopia where this does not happen? What would Alexandria do and look like? How would it be paid for?

I think it says a lot about your beliefs that you think anywhere where poor people have decent housing in safe neighborhoods close to jobs is some kind of unaffordable "socialist utopia".

You are avoiding the questions. How does this happen in Alexandria? And it is a “socialist utopia” because the plan to make this happen in urban settings will inevitably involve government taking of private land and providing some sort of social welfare. If the wealthy leave you get Baltimore or Detroit and no jobs with an abundance of housing. Even big houses.

You don’t seem to understand the basic idea of missing middle. The whole point is to increase supply of housing units overall thus leading to downward pressure on overall prices.

Right, but that doesn’t work. That’s illusory. How does building a 4-plex on a lot that cost $1.5 million to procure decrease prices? It may on condos, but it increases SFH prices. Should no one live in a SFH?

A four-unit building increases the supply of housing by three units, compared to a one-unit building.

3 $750k units does what for those workers living in cramped spaces you alluded to earlier? Your argument makes 0 sense.

The concept of supply and demand is used to explain how price is influenced by the supply of goods and services available and the demand for those products. When supply decreases, the price of the good increases. Inversely, when the supply of the good increases, the price falls. A similar relationship exists between price and demand. When the demand for the good increases, the price of the good also increases. When the demand decreases, the price of the good falls with it.

Assuming the goods are fungible. A $350k home is not the same as a $750k home.

There is a market for housing. The market for housing is a market. The market for housing includes supply and demand, with price as an indicator, because it is a market.

The existence of a market doesn't mean the goods are fungible. A 4BR home is not the same as a 2BR home. You can't buy two 2BR homes as a substitute for a 4BR home.

Who has said housing is fungible? How is it relevant whether or not housing is fungible?

Anonymous wrote:How likely is it that the current proposals will remain as is? Thinking specifically about multi unit housing being allowed in SFH neighborhoods, as long as it abides by current FAR ratios, height restrictions, etc.

As they currently stand, they're not so objectionable, but some city council and planning commission members seemed to want far more. Is it likely that they will be modified further to allow for more density, which for the record I oppose. The staff presentation seemed to indicate these recommendations were developed in response to community feedback and our environmental priorities. If that's the case, I'll be pretty pissed if all of the sudden they get revised to allow for 7 story apartment complexes on R8 lots.

Not that my opinion will matter of course, just trying to figure out how frustrated to gear myself up to be. I say this as someone who feels very much in the middle on this issue, but recognizes that any opposition in this town can be seen as heresy.

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Anonymous wrote:Here you go for your upzoning. ADU built in the backyard of someone near Beverly Hills area that is a two story, 2 bd/2ba 931 sq ft house for rent for $3,000.

Eat your heart out. So affordable!!!

https://www.zillow.com/homes/821-Summit-Ave-.num.A-Alexandria,-VA-22302_rb/2055841832_zpid/

That's great news. There used to be one housing unit on the parcel, now there are two.

And it looks cute too! Although I don't get the sink/minifridge/microwave thing.

So your position is to build housing for the sake of building housing not to make housing affordable, desegregate, or some other made-up reason? I commend you owning this instead of couching it all in some greater social good gaslighting.

Do you think adding to the supply of housing increases the price of housing?

Wouldn't the answer to your general question depend on the type of housing being built? The 900 square foot ADU rental for $3,000 is an additional unit, but it doesn't bring the price of housing down.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here you go for your upzoning. ADU built in the backyard of someone near Beverly Hills area that is a two story, 2 bd/2ba 931 sq ft house for rent for $3,000.

Eat your heart out. So affordable!!!

https://www.zillow.com/homes/821-Summit-Ave-.num.A-Alexandria,-VA-22302_rb/2055841832_zpid/

That's great news. There used to be one housing unit on the parcel, now there are two.

And it looks cute too! Although I don't get the sink/minifridge/microwave thing.

So your position is to build housing for the sake of building housing not to make housing affordable, desegregate, or some other made-up reason? I commend you owning this instead of couching it all in some greater social good gaslighting.

Do you think adding to the supply of housing increases the price of housing?

I do not think adding housing decreases the cost of housing/rent in Alexandria. Alexandria has added 5898 units in the last five years. There was just a protest outside Potomac West Apartments because they are increasing rent. The cost of housing has steadily risen despite almost 6000 new units.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here you go for your upzoning. ADU built in the backyard of someone near Beverly Hills area that is a two story, 2 bd/2ba 931 sq ft house for rent for $3,000.

Eat your heart out. So affordable!!!

https://www.zillow.com/homes/821-Summit-Ave-.num.A-Alexandria,-VA-22302_rb/2055841832_zpid/

That's great news. There used to be one housing unit on the parcel, now there are two.

And it looks cute too! Although I don't get the sink/minifridge/microwave thing.

So your position is to build housing for the sake of building housing not to make housing affordable, desegregate, or some other made-up reason? I commend you owning this instead of couching it all in some greater social good gaslighting.

Do you think adding to the supply of housing increases the price of housing?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here you go for your upzoning. ADU built in the backyard of someone near Beverly Hills area that is a two story, 2 bd/2ba 931 sq ft house for rent for $3,000.

Eat your heart out. So affordable!!!

https://www.zillow.com/homes/821-Summit-Ave-.num.A-Alexandria,-VA-22302_rb/2055841832_zpid/

That's great news. There used to be one housing unit on the parcel, now there are two.

And it looks cute too! Although I don't get the sink/minifridge/microwave thing.

So your position is to build housing for the sake of building housing not to make housing affordable, desegregate, or some other made-up reason? I commend you owning this instead of couching it all in some greater social good gaslighting.

Do you think adding to the supply of housing increases the price of housing?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here you go for your upzoning. ADU built in the backyard of someone near Beverly Hills area that is a two story, 2 bd/2ba 931 sq ft house for rent for $3,000.

Eat your heart out. So affordable!!!

https://www.zillow.com/homes/821-Summit-Ave-.num.A-Alexandria,-VA-22302_rb/2055841832_zpid/

That's great news. There used to be one housing unit on the parcel, now there are two.

And it looks cute too! Although I don't get the sink/minifridge/microwave thing.

So your position is to build housing for the sake of building housing not to make housing affordable, desegregate, or some other made-up reason? I commend you owning this instead of couching it all in some greater social good gaslighting.