When I was in college I had a student job in the registrars office. One of the things I dealt with were transcripts, including for law school. This wasn't quite a T14 law school, but close. Anyway, I handled the transcripts so I got a a sense of things.

It is shocking how easy it is for black students to get into a decent law school. The LSAT scores aren't remotely close to white or Asian students. This kind of thing always seems a little academic, but when you actually see the discrepancies it is breathtaking.Totally different planets.

Being black is the golden ticket for law school admissions at least. And that sucks in a lot of different ways. But nobody should be surprised if people mess around with the race box. If you have a grandparent from Vietnam, well, that sucks for you. If you have a grandparent from Haiti, winner.

Colleges set the rules. People are going to play the game. When it is so much easier for people with black or hispanic ancestry to get into schools, it's no surprise that people start looking for a useful grandparent.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

You are probably not following the Supreme Court case.
College admissions offices are deliberately lowering percentage of a group of people with bullshit insulting scores on kindness courage likability.

It's the 21st century. We don't need racism in the academic fields.

Regardless of what SCOTUS decides, what is happening is not 'racism'. For it to be racism, there would have to be hundreds of people in an admissions office colluding to exclude a specific group with every one of them capable of keeping the secret and none of them having the spine to go public. And those admissions offices include people of all races and backgrounds, and have people on staff whose job it is to ensure racism doesn't happen. And actually, it's thousands of people who would have to be keeping the secret, because while Harvard and UNC are named in lawsuits, the same thing is happening at all universities. Affirmative action may be found to be unconstitutional by this very biased court, but it is not a racist policy.

It is absolutely possible, and even probable, that what we are seeing is racism. Yes, hundreds of people in admissions offices can definitely have a racist bias against Asians. We see it here in this forum all the time - the attitude that Asians are just boring grade-grubbers and exam-crammers. Admissions officers are very much in the DCUM demographic and I venture to guess that they think the same way.

Furthermore, you are ignoring unconscious bias and systemic racism. Don't you believe those are actual things? I bet that if you do, you think they only operate against blacks, but it is very obvious they operate against Asians in this case.

Last but not least, the courts have found in other cases that it doesn't even matter if there isn't a conscious, racist conspiracy. If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians.

Your knowledge of the composition of admissions staffs is way off base. It is not at all similar to the DCUM crowd, with deliberate efforts to choose a very diverse group. Many of them are recent grads of the school where they work and care deeply about making sure it maintains the excellence they love so much that they want to try to convince others to attend.

They are mentally and ideologically exactly the same as the DCUM crowd - educated urban liberals. And like the DCUM crowd, they consider some types of "diversity" better than others. For whatever reason, black diversity is held to improve the "excellence" of these schools, but Asian diversity does not contribute to the "excellence" of these schools.

I'm confused how you can say that when 23.7% of Harvard freshman who report only one race are Asian, but only 6.1% of the US population is Asian. That's almost four times the representation in the general population and seems to value Asian diversity pretty highly. This is as contrasted with blacks, who make up 10.1% of the freshmen and 13.6% of the general population. They seem to be valued less than they ought to be.

Jews are 20-25% of Harvard but 2% of the population

So let’s not get into the “over representation” sweepstakes as a cudgel against Asians

Your representation of my use of statistics as a cudgel is inaccurate. I was merely responding to the person who claimed that Asians are not valued by Harvard. It's a ridiculous claim. I'm not sure if your numbers regarding Jews are correct, but if they are and someone were claiming Jews weren't valued, I'd say the same thing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

You are probably not following the Supreme Court case.
College admissions offices are deliberately lowering percentage of a group of people with bullshit insulting scores on kindness courage likability.

It's the 21st century. We don't need racism in the academic fields.

Regardless of what SCOTUS decides, what is happening is not 'racism'. For it to be racism, there would have to be hundreds of people in an admissions office colluding to exclude a specific group with every one of them capable of keeping the secret and none of them having the spine to go public. And those admissions offices include people of all races and backgrounds, and have people on staff whose job it is to ensure racism doesn't happen. And actually, it's thousands of people who would have to be keeping the secret, because while Harvard and UNC are named in lawsuits, the same thing is happening at all universities. Affirmative action may be found to be unconstitutional by this very biased court, but it is not a racist policy.

It is absolutely possible, and even probable, that what we are seeing is racism. Yes, hundreds of people in admissions offices can definitely have a racist bias against Asians. We see it here in this forum all the time - the attitude that Asians are just boring grade-grubbers and exam-crammers. Admissions officers are very much in the DCUM demographic and I venture to guess that they think the same way.

Furthermore, you are ignoring unconscious bias and systemic racism. Don't you believe those are actual things? I bet that if you do, you think they only operate against blacks, but it is very obvious they operate against Asians in this case.

Last but not least, the courts have found in other cases that it doesn't even matter if there isn't a conscious, racist conspiracy. If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians.

Your knowledge of the composition of admissions staffs is way off base. It is not at all similar to the DCUM crowd, with deliberate efforts to choose a very diverse group. Many of them are recent grads of the school where they work and care deeply about making sure it maintains the excellence they love so much that they want to try to convince others to attend.

They are mentally and ideologically exactly the same as the DCUM crowd - educated urban liberals. And like the DCUM crowd, they consider some types of "diversity" better than others. For whatever reason, black diversity is held to improve the "excellence" of these schools, but Asian diversity does not contribute to the "excellence" of these schools.

I'm confused how you can say that when 23.7% of Harvard freshman who report only one race are Asian, but only 6.1% of the US population is Asian. That's almost four times the representation in the general population and seems to value Asian diversity pretty highly. This is as contrasted with blacks, who make up 10.1% of the freshmen and 13.6% of the general population. They seem to be valued less than they ought to be.

Jews are 20-25% of Harvard but 2% of the population

So let’s not get into the “over representation” sweepstakes as a cudgel against Asians

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

You are probably not following the Supreme Court case.
College admissions offices are deliberately lowering percentage of a group of people with bullshit insulting scores on kindness courage likability.

It's the 21st century. We don't need racism in the academic fields.

Regardless of what SCOTUS decides, what is happening is not 'racism'. For it to be racism, there would have to be hundreds of people in an admissions office colluding to exclude a specific group with every one of them capable of keeping the secret and none of them having the spine to go public. And those admissions offices include people of all races and backgrounds, and have people on staff whose job it is to ensure racism doesn't happen. And actually, it's thousands of people who would have to be keeping the secret, because while Harvard and UNC are named in lawsuits, the same thing is happening at all universities. Affirmative action may be found to be unconstitutional by this very biased court, but it is not a racist policy.

It is absolutely possible, and even probable, that what we are seeing is racism. Yes, hundreds of people in admissions offices can definitely have a racist bias against Asians. We see it here in this forum all the time - the attitude that Asians are just boring grade-grubbers and exam-crammers. Admissions officers are very much in the DCUM demographic and I venture to guess that they think the same way.

Furthermore, you are ignoring unconscious bias and systemic racism. Don't you believe those are actual things? I bet that if you do, you think they only operate against blacks, but it is very obvious they operate against Asians in this case.

Last but not least, the courts have found in other cases that it doesn't even matter if there isn't a conscious, racist conspiracy. If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians.

Your knowledge of the composition of admissions staffs is way off base. It is not at all similar to the DCUM crowd, with deliberate efforts to choose a very diverse group. Many of them are recent grads of the school where they work and care deeply about making sure it maintains the excellence they love so much that they want to try to convince others to attend.

They are mentally and ideologically exactly the same as the DCUM crowd - educated urban liberals. And like the DCUM crowd, they consider some types of "diversity" better than others. For whatever reason, black diversity is held to improve the "excellence" of these schools, but Asian diversity does not contribute to the "excellence" of these schools.

I'm confused how you can say that when 23.7% of Harvard freshman who report only one race are Asian, but only 6.1% of the US population is Asian. That's almost four times the representation in the general population and seems to value Asian diversity pretty highly. This is as contrasted with blacks, who make up 10.1% of the freshmen and 13.6% of the general population. They seem to be valued less than they ought to be.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

You are probably not following the Supreme Court case.
College admissions offices are deliberately lowering percentage of a group of people with bullshit insulting scores on kindness courage likability.

It's the 21st century. We don't need racism in the academic fields.

Regardless of what SCOTUS decides, what is happening is not 'racism'. For it to be racism, there would have to be hundreds of people in an admissions office colluding to exclude a specific group with every one of them capable of keeping the secret and none of them having the spine to go public. And those admissions offices include people of all races and backgrounds, and have people on staff whose job it is to ensure racism doesn't happen. And actually, it's thousands of people who would have to be keeping the secret, because while Harvard and UNC are named in lawsuits, the same thing is happening at all universities. Affirmative action may be found to be unconstitutional by this very biased court, but it is not a racist policy.

It is absolutely possible, and even probable, that what we are seeing is racism. Yes, hundreds of people in admissions offices can definitely have a racist bias against Asians. We see it here in this forum all the time - the attitude that Asians are just boring grade-grubbers and exam-crammers. Admissions officers are very much in the DCUM demographic and I venture to guess that they think the same way.

Furthermore, you are ignoring unconscious bias and systemic racism. Don't you believe those are actual things? I bet that if you do, you think they only operate against blacks, but it is very obvious they operate against Asians in this case.

Last but not least, the courts have found in other cases that it doesn't even matter if there isn't a conscious, racist conspiracy. If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians.

Your knowledge of the composition of admissions staffs is way off base. It is not at all similar to the DCUM crowd, with deliberate efforts to choose a very diverse group. Many of them are recent grads of the school where they work and care deeply about making sure it maintains the excellence they love so much that they want to try to convince others to attend.

They are mentally and ideologically exactly the same as the DCUM crowd - educated urban liberals. And like the DCUM crowd, they consider some types of "diversity" better than others. For whatever reason, black diversity is held to improve the "excellence" of these schools, but Asian diversity does not contribute to the "excellence" of these schools.

You know that at many completive schools, Asians are statistically over-represented, right? Proving they ARE valued.

You also know that at schools where they are under-represented, they benefit from the same policy? Like at some top LACs?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

You are probably not following the Supreme Court case.
College admissions offices are deliberately lowering percentage of a group of people with bullshit insulting scores on kindness courage likability.

It's the 21st century. We don't need racism in the academic fields.

Regardless of what SCOTUS decides, what is happening is not 'racism'. For it to be racism, there would have to be hundreds of people in an admissions office colluding to exclude a specific group with every one of them capable of keeping the secret and none of them having the spine to go public. And those admissions offices include people of all races and backgrounds, and have people on staff whose job it is to ensure racism doesn't happen. And actually, it's thousands of people who would have to be keeping the secret, because while Harvard and UNC are named in lawsuits, the same thing is happening at all universities. Affirmative action may be found to be unconstitutional by this very biased court, but it is not a racist policy.

It is absolutely possible, and even probable, that what we are seeing is racism. Yes, hundreds of people in admissions offices can definitely have a racist bias against Asians. We see it here in this forum all the time - the attitude that Asians are just boring grade-grubbers and exam-crammers. Admissions officers are very much in the DCUM demographic and I venture to guess that they think the same way.

Furthermore, you are ignoring unconscious bias and systemic racism. Don't you believe those are actual things? I bet that if you do, you think they only operate against blacks, but it is very obvious they operate against Asians in this case.

Last but not least, the courts have found in other cases that it doesn't even matter if there isn't a conscious, racist conspiracy. If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians.

"If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians."

So what you propose we do is change it so that admission practices instead have a disproportionately adverse effect on blacks? Despite the Civil Rights Act, blacks have been stuck with sub-par educational opportunities for centuries when compared to other races. The likelihood that an extremely capable black student won't have access to a superior high school education (and before) is significantly higher than it is for other races. So you want to base college admission solely on numbers and not take any of that into account?

Right now, blacks are admitted to universities that would not admit a non-black student with the same profile - that is, they are disproportionately advantaged. Meanwhile, Asians are denied admission to universities that would admit a non-Asian student with the same profile - that is, they are disproportionately disadvantaged. If you just "let the chips fall where they may" - do not take race into account - then blacks will lose their disproportionate advantage and Asians will lose their disproportionate disadvantage. Removing the artificial black advantage would not create a "disproportionately adverse" effect on blacks - they'd simply have to go to the schools that fit their numbers. This is not a form of adversity, that's the way the system should work.

"So you want to base college admission solely on numbers and not take any of that into account?" -- Yes. The system right now is deeply stupid and dishonest, and the only way to eliminate and stop the games that both applicants and colleges are playing is to take race off the table.

It’s hardly dishonest. They’re completely transparent about what they are doing. You just don’t like what they do. You think college admissions is some reward for what a student achieves in high school. It’s not nor has it ever been that way. You don’t seem to have a problem with legacy, athletics, donors or any of the other factors they consider. Picking on URMs simply demonstrates you don’t like URMs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the data:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/577722-more-than-a-third-of-white-students-lie-about-their/

My guess is that they mostly put Hispanic.

I thought Hispanic % was said to be pretty high at some of the colleges.

Yeah, a friend of my son has an Hispanic mother ... whose family has been in the United States since the late 1800s. The father is a WASP who attended Columbia and HBS. Meanwhile the boy is checking the Hispanic box and applying to Harvard and Yale while my slightly-better-stats kid is focused on, like, Villanova.

It's so frustrating to see people abuse the system. I wish there was a way for colleges to distinguish (and who knows; maybe they do.)

Simple

Latinos should not get any affirmative action

It should be for ados blacks only.

Latinos scam this so hard.

I ask for test scores and transcripts when I hire and I definitely am more willing to bend for black kids (it’s pretty easy also to tell ados from 1st and 2nd gen African/Dominicans when you see their names, ask where they went to high school, make small talk about hobbies, music, sports during the interview process etc)

+1,000

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the data:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/577722-more-than-a-third-of-white-students-lie-about-their/

My guess is that they mostly put Hispanic.

I thought Hispanic % was said to be pretty high at some of the colleges.

Yeah, a friend of my son has an Hispanic mother ... whose family has been in the United States since the late 1800s. The father is a WASP who attended Columbia and HBS. Meanwhile the boy is checking the Hispanic box and applying to Harvard and Yale while my slightly-better-stats kid is focused on, like, Villanova.

It's so frustrating to see people abuse the system. I wish there was a way for colleges to distinguish (and who knows; maybe they do.)

Simple

Latinos should not get any affirmative action

It should be for ados blacks only.

Latinos scam this so hard.

I ask for test scores and transcripts when I hire and I definitely am more willing to bend for black kids (it’s pretty easy also to tell ados from 1st and 2nd gen African/Dominicans when you see their names, ask where they went to high school, make small talk about hobbies, music, sports during the interview process etc)

ADOS Blacks plus Native Americans on tribal rolls. That's all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

You are probably not following the Supreme Court case.
College admissions offices are deliberately lowering percentage of a group of people with bullshit insulting scores on kindness courage likability.

It's the 21st century. We don't need racism in the academic fields.

Regardless of what SCOTUS decides, what is happening is not 'racism'. For it to be racism, there would have to be hundreds of people in an admissions office colluding to exclude a specific group with every one of them capable of keeping the secret and none of them having the spine to go public. And those admissions offices include people of all races and backgrounds, and have people on staff whose job it is to ensure racism doesn't happen. And actually, it's thousands of people who would have to be keeping the secret, because while Harvard and UNC are named in lawsuits, the same thing is happening at all universities. Affirmative action may be found to be unconstitutional by this very biased court, but it is not a racist policy.

It is absolutely possible, and even probable, that what we are seeing is racism. Yes, hundreds of people in admissions offices can definitely have a racist bias against Asians. We see it here in this forum all the time - the attitude that Asians are just boring grade-grubbers and exam-crammers. Admissions officers are very much in the DCUM demographic and I venture to guess that they think the same way.

Furthermore, you are ignoring unconscious bias and systemic racism. Don't you believe those are actual things? I bet that if you do, you think they only operate against blacks, but it is very obvious they operate against Asians in this case.

Last but not least, the courts have found in other cases that it doesn't even matter if there isn't a conscious, racist conspiracy. If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians.

"If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians."

So what you propose we do is change it so that admission practices instead have a disproportionately adverse effect on blacks? Despite the Civil Rights Act, blacks have been stuck with sub-par educational opportunities for centuries when compared to other races. The likelihood that an extremely capable black student won't have access to a superior high school education (and before) is significantly higher than it is for other races. So you want to base college admission solely on numbers and not take any of that into account?

Right now, blacks are admitted to universities that would not admit a non-black student with the same profile - that is, they are disproportionately advantaged. Meanwhile, Asians are denied admission to universities that would admit a non-Asian student with the same profile - that is, they are disproportionately disadvantaged. If you just "let the chips fall where they may" - do not take race into account - then blacks will lose their disproportionate advantage and Asians will lose their disproportionate disadvantage. Removing the artificial black advantage would not create a "disproportionately adverse" effect on blacks - they'd simply have to go to the schools that fit their numbers. This is not a form of adversity, that's the way the system should work.

"So you want to base college admission solely on numbers and not take any of that into account?" -- Yes. The system right now is deeply stupid and dishonest, and the only way to eliminate and stop the games that both applicants and colleges are playing is to take race off the table.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

You are probably not following the Supreme Court case.
College admissions offices are deliberately lowering percentage of a group of people with bullshit insulting scores on kindness courage likability.

It's the 21st century. We don't need racism in the academic fields.

Regardless of what SCOTUS decides, what is happening is not 'racism'. For it to be racism, there would have to be hundreds of people in an admissions office colluding to exclude a specific group with every one of them capable of keeping the secret and none of them having the spine to go public. And those admissions offices include people of all races and backgrounds, and have people on staff whose job it is to ensure racism doesn't happen. And actually, it's thousands of people who would have to be keeping the secret, because while Harvard and UNC are named in lawsuits, the same thing is happening at all universities. Affirmative action may be found to be unconstitutional by this very biased court, but it is not a racist policy.

It is absolutely possible, and even probable, that what we are seeing is racism. Yes, hundreds of people in admissions offices can definitely have a racist bias against Asians. We see it here in this forum all the time - the attitude that Asians are just boring grade-grubbers and exam-crammers. Admissions officers are very much in the DCUM demographic and I venture to guess that they think the same way.

Furthermore, you are ignoring unconscious bias and systemic racism. Don't you believe those are actual things? I bet that if you do, you think they only operate against blacks, but it is very obvious they operate against Asians in this case.

Last but not least, the courts have found in other cases that it doesn't even matter if there isn't a conscious, racist conspiracy. If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians.

Your knowledge of the composition of admissions staffs is way off base. It is not at all similar to the DCUM crowd, with deliberate efforts to choose a very diverse group. Many of them are recent grads of the school where they work and care deeply about making sure it maintains the excellence they love so much that they want to try to convince others to attend.

They are mentally and ideologically exactly the same as the DCUM crowd - educated urban liberals. And like the DCUM crowd, they consider some types of "diversity" better than others. For whatever reason, black diversity is held to improve the "excellence" of these schools, but Asian diversity does not contribute to the "excellence" of these schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

"Racism against one race in order to help another race is not racism, ackshually." WTF, do you even believe this illogical nonsense? Sad to say you probably do.

And oh by the way, in college admissions, they are very clearly deliberately excluding Asians. They know they're doing it, and they are busy inventing specious justifications for it - much as you are doing here.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

LOL do you realize you just entirely destroyed the basis for affirmative action? If it doesn't do anyone harm not to be admitted to a selective college, then that precise logic certainly applies to African-Americans. They can go to a less-selective college and get the education they need. They'll do fine, right? Oh wait, you meant that it's only the Asians who have to suck it up and go to a lesser college? Hmmm I dare say the Asians might not agree with that racist idea.

Your definition of 'racism' is not accurate, so there's no point in arguing with you.

You are correct that blacks can be just as successful going to a less selective school and that the elimination of AA will thus not do them harm, but that's not the point. Harvard and all the other highly selective colleges believe they can deliver a better education to their students by having a balanced student body with a wide diversity of experiences, and my opinion is that they should be allowed to choose who they admit with that goal guiding their process. If that means including some people because their race has led to their not having had the same privileges as others, it should be allowed. I understand that SCOTUS may disagree.

You seem unlikely to believe me, but I value what people of all backgrounds have to offer to our world.

Your nasty tone is not one I want to interact with any more beyond this post.

DP. A private enterprise should be allowed to do what they want.. e.g. Deny making you a cake because they don't like something about you, admit who they want because they feel like it, etc. However, to qualify as such an enterprise, you should also be paying your dues, for example, taxes. All of these 'non profit' institutions are mooching off my $. I subsidize them and therefore I absolutely get to have a say in what they do and how they go about doing it. Don't like it, go 'For Profit', pay full taxes. Be a 'man'!

What makes you think that the other millions of people whose tax dollars go to subsidizing education agree with your opinion? Should we have a committee with representation for all taxpayers overseeing the admission process, telling them how to make their decisions? I'll let you take charge of that endeavor.

That's what our elected representatives (e.g. congress) and the officers they appoint (e.g. Courts) are for. We should let them do their jobs. The vast majority of voters in every poll clearly state that they are against admissions-fixing. Why not listen to them and not wait to be forced into action by the courts?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the data:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/577722-more-than-a-third-of-white-students-lie-about-their/

My guess is that they mostly put Hispanic.

I thought Hispanic % was said to be pretty high at some of the colleges.

Yeah, a friend of my son has an Hispanic mother ... whose family has been in the United States since the late 1800s. The father is a WASP who attended Columbia and HBS. Meanwhile the boy is checking the Hispanic box and applying to Harvard and Yale while my slightly-better-stats kid is focused on, like, Villanova.

It's so frustrating to see people abuse the system. I wish there was a way for colleges to distinguish (and who knows; maybe they do.)

Why would this kid identifying an Hispanic prevent your son from applying to those schools also? If he chose to remove himself from consideration then why gripe that he is disadvantaged because of the other kid?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody gets admitted because of race. It's not a bump. Don't believe it. If there's a toss up between equals and a college realizes their students all are alike, then maybe on occasion given all other things equal someone might get a second look, but all things are equal so it's just the luck of teh draw at that point. Even lying about about race for a scholarship only puts you in the hunt, you're still competing against others on stats. Nobody gets a scholarship just because they are of a certain race, they simply might qualify for it. Even the most diverse colleges fall many percentages points under the representative average of most races, especially Black and Brown.

Total BS. Race is critical in admissions to top 20.

Yet there are limited spots. Everyone believes this check box works magic, but even if an applicant can check the box (name your definition) there are far, far more applicants than seats. If the box disappears it won't make way for all the applicants who's parents are here whining. There will be just as many DCUM many rejections as ever. There are something like 300 black students in the Harvard freshman class. It doesn't matter what your kid has done, there are definitely 300 AA kids in the country who are smarter and more accomplished, that is not controversial. Still, if those students are somehow pushed aside, there are still thousands of applicants better than yours. Not gonna happen.

NP: There are approximately 160 AA kids in the Harvard freshman class. According to the Students for Fair Admissions brief, the number of AA students would decrease by 50%. Net gain for non-URM applicants would be 80 seats. I don't agree with discrimination against Asian American students but many of the parents on this thread will be disappointed when their kids don't see any differences in acceptance rates after affirmative action.

Multipled times every top level school, which will cascade down the rankings. There really aren't millions of highly qualified students. It will make a difference.

You are going to be disappointed…top colleges will continue to have ~5% black students post affirmative action.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody gets admitted because of race. It's not a bump. Don't believe it. If there's a toss up between equals and a college realizes their students all are alike, then maybe on occasion given all other things equal someone might get a second look, but all things are equal so it's just the luck of teh draw at that point. Even lying about about race for a scholarship only puts you in the hunt, you're still competing against others on stats. Nobody gets a scholarship just because they are of a certain race, they simply might qualify for it. Even the most diverse colleges fall many percentages points under the representative average of most races, especially Black and Brown.

Total BS. Race is critical in admissions to top 20.

Yet there are limited spots. Everyone believes this check box works magic, but even if an applicant can check the box (name your definition) there are far, far more applicants than seats. If the box disappears it won't make way for all the applicants who's parents are here whining. There will be just as many DCUM many rejections as ever. There are something like 300 black students in the Harvard freshman class. It doesn't matter what your kid has done, there are definitely 300 AA kids in the country who are smarter and more accomplished, that is not controversial. Still, if those students are somehow pushed aside, there are still thousands of applicants better than yours. Not gonna happen.

So:
1) 300 African Americans at Harvard are smarter and more accomplished than anyone else in the country?
2) And if yes, why have their historic stats continued to show standardized test scores approximately 200 points lower on average than Whites and Asians?

I think you meant that SOME of the AA applicants are just as accomplished as other applicants, but not on average.

Once Harvard has taken its top students, and Yale and a few other schools, the rest of the black applicants are well behind at the second tier schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the data:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/577722-more-than-a-third-of-white-students-lie-about-their/

My guess is that they mostly put Hispanic.

I thought Hispanic % was said to be pretty high at some of the colleges.

Yeah, a friend of my son has an Hispanic mother ... whose family has been in the United States since the late 1800s. The father is a WASP who attended Columbia and HBS. Meanwhile the boy is checking the Hispanic box and applying to Harvard and Yale while my slightly-better-stats kid is focused on, like, Villanova.

It's so frustrating to see people abuse the system. I wish there was a way for colleges to distinguish (and who knows; maybe they do.)

Simple

Latinos should not get any affirmative action

It should be for ados blacks only.

Latinos scam this so hard.

I ask for test scores and transcripts when I hire and I definitely am more willing to bend for black kids (it’s pretty easy also to tell ados from 1st and 2nd gen African/Dominicans when you see their names, ask where they went to high school, make small talk about hobbies, music, sports during the interview process etc)