Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

If you accept payment via credit card, you've agreed that their agreements supersede yours

Absolutely not. If you have a binding agreement that clearly spells out the obligations of each party then the credit card company will stay out of the dispute -- as the terms of your private contract is binding. It is where there is no contract or the contract does not address the issue that the credit card company and its terms may come into play.

-a lawyer

Your credit card company goes by their merchant agreement in adjudicating a dispute and those clearly require refunds when services paid for are not provided

Not if in your contract you agreed to pay with no refunds or exceptions for Acts of God.

Amex's merchant agreement specifically prohibits those clauses

Source for that? As I recall from when I dealt with them, the only requirement was that refund policies be “fair” (which was not defined and thus could be considered ambiguous), clearly discolored and in compliance with applicable law.

"An Advance Payment Charge is a Charge for which full payment is made in advance of your providing the goods and/or rendering the services to the Cardmember.
Advance Payment Charge procedures are available for custom-orders (e.g., orders for goods to be manufactured to a customer's specifications), entertainment / ticketing (e.g., sporting
events, concerts, season tickets), tuition, room and board, and other mandatory fees (e.g. library fees) of higher educational institutions, airline tickets, vehicle rentals, rail tickets, cruise line
tickets, lodging, travel-related services (e.g., tours, guided expeditions). For an Advance Payment Charge, you must (i) state your full cancellation and refund policies, (ii) clearly disclose your
intent and obtain written consent from the Cardmember to bill the Card for an Advance Payment Charge before you request an Authorisation, which consent must include: (a) the
Cardmember's agreement to all the terms of the sale (including price and any cancellation and refund policies), and (b) a detailed description and the expected delivery date of the goods and /
or services to be provided (including, if applicable, expected arrival and departure dates); (iii) obtain an Authorisation Approval; (iv) complete a Charge Record. If the Advance Payment Charge
is a Card Not Present Charge, you must also ensure that the Charge Record contains the words “Advance Payment” and within twenty-four (24) hours of the Charge being incurred, provide the
Cardmember written confirmation (e.g., email or facsimile) of the Advance Payment Charge, the amount, the confirmation number (if applicable), a detailed description and expected delivery
date of the goods and / or services to be provided (including expected arrival and departure dates, if applicable) and details of your cancellation / refund policy. If you cannot deliver goods and /
or services (e.g., because custom-ordered merchandise cannot be fulfilled), and if alternate arrangements cannot be made, you must immediately issue a Credit for the full amount of the
Advance Payment Charge which cannot be fulfilled. In addition to our other Chargeback rights, we may Chargeback for any Disputed Advance Payment Charge or portion thereof if, in our sole
discretion, the dispute cannot be resolved in your favour based upon unambiguous terms contained in the terms of sale to which you obtained the Cardmember's written consent."

“and if alternate arrangements cannot be made” is doing a lot of work here (if this agreement even applies; there are different merchant agreements). Offering to let OP rebook the unit for a later date is an “alternative arrangement” for use of the unit.

arrangements being made implies agreement of the parties. A property rental for a one week is not fungible with a rental for another week

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

If you accept payment via credit card, you've agreed that their agreements supersede yours

Absolutely not. If you have a binding agreement that clearly spells out the obligations of each party then the credit card company will stay out of the dispute -- as the terms of your private contract is binding. It is where there is no contract or the contract does not address the issue that the credit card company and its terms may come into play.

-a lawyer

Your credit card company goes by their merchant agreement in adjudicating a dispute and those clearly require refunds when services paid for are not provided

Not if in your contract you agreed to pay with no refunds or exceptions for Acts of God.

Amex's merchant agreement specifically prohibits those clauses

Source for that? As I recall from when I dealt with them, the only requirement was that refund policies be “fair” (which was not defined and thus could be considered ambiguous), clearly discolored and in compliance with applicable law.

"An Advance Payment Charge is a Charge for which full payment is made in advance of your providing the goods and/or rendering the services to the Cardmember.
Advance Payment Charge procedures are available for custom-orders (e.g., orders for goods to be manufactured to a customer's specifications), entertainment / ticketing (e.g., sporting
events, concerts, season tickets), tuition, room and board, and other mandatory fees (e.g. library fees) of higher educational institutions, airline tickets, vehicle rentals, rail tickets, cruise line
tickets, lodging, travel-related services (e.g., tours, guided expeditions). For an Advance Payment Charge, you must (i) state your full cancellation and refund policies, (ii) clearly disclose your
intent and obtain written consent from the Cardmember to bill the Card for an Advance Payment Charge before you request an Authorisation, which consent must include: (a) the
Cardmember's agreement to all the terms of the sale (including price and any cancellation and refund policies), and (b) a detailed description and the expected delivery date of the goods and /
or services to be provided (including, if applicable, expected arrival and departure dates); (iii) obtain an Authorisation Approval; (iv) complete a Charge Record. If the Advance Payment Charge
is a Card Not Present Charge, you must also ensure that the Charge Record contains the words “Advance Payment” and within twenty-four (24) hours of the Charge being incurred, provide the
Cardmember written confirmation (e.g., email or facsimile) of the Advance Payment Charge, the amount, the confirmation number (if applicable), a detailed description and expected delivery
date of the goods and / or services to be provided (including expected arrival and departure dates, if applicable) and details of your cancellation / refund policy. If you cannot deliver goods and /
or services (e.g., because custom-ordered merchandise cannot be fulfilled), and if alternate arrangements cannot be made, you must immediately issue a Credit for the full amount of the
Advance Payment Charge which cannot be fulfilled. In addition to our other Chargeback rights, we may Chargeback for any Disputed Advance Payment Charge or portion thereof if, in our sole
discretion, the dispute cannot be resolved in your favour based upon unambiguous terms contained in the terms of sale to which you obtained the Cardmember's written consent."

“and if alternate arrangements cannot be made” is doing a lot of work here (if this agreement even applies; there are different merchant agreements). Offering to let OP rebook the unit for a later date is an “alternative arrangement” for use of the unit.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is from the article OP linked above in first post.

"However, should a host not cancel first, the situation becomes more complex, particularly with Airbnb, given its cancellation policy specifically excludes the annual storm season in Florida. Airbnb says that it offers refunds for “events beyond one’s control”, including some extreme weather events and natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, but despite this, the company deems tropical hurricanes and storms in the state between June and November to be “foreseeable” and its cancellation policy does not result in refunds under those circumstances.

Meanwhile, a Vrbo spokeswoman told The New York Times that “natural disasters, such as hurricanes or wildfires, do not override the cancellation policy set by the host and agreed to by the guest when they book”.

BUT this isn't a cancellation due to a hurricane. It is a cancellation because the condo is not habitable/destroyed/island is not available to non-owners. Definitely dispute with the credit card, airbnb are going to lose.

DP. You don’t know that the unit is uninhabitable, and you don’t know that it won’t be available to non-visitors next week. But all that aside, all of those issue absolutely do arise out of a hurricane and so very likely does fall within the scope of this policy.

So you’re saying if the house wasn’t inhabitable for other reasons, then the renter would be entitled to a refund? That makes no sense.

Sure it makes sense if hurricanes are specifically excluded, which it sounds like they are.

What's the time limit on this? Some VRBO and AirBnb reservations don't allow for cancelations after 24-36 hours. If a house was washed away in this hurricane and someone booked for next June, does the owner still keep the money if there is literally no house available? What if the house was damaged but the owner just can't be bothered to make needed repairs for 6 months because they get to keep all the rental fees anyways? That can't be right. The owner has an obligation to live up to their end of an agreement and provide a rental unit. It's not a blank check to cite a hurricane that happened in the past and keep the money.

You can complain to vrbo and airbnb if you get there and the house is not there or there are safety issues and they will force the owner to refund. If anyone could complain before coming then you'd see a lot of problems. The key is to either buy hurricane insurance or show up to the place and then complain. Pretty standard and makes sense.

Hurricane insurance for a June 2023 rental would protect you against a rental that’s not usable due to damage from an October 2022 hurricane? Somehow I doubt that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is probably why some people died in the hurricane. They couldn’t get a refund.

Even if I couldn’t get a refund, I would not go on a trip to a hurricane.

I can see both sides. The contract may say no cancellations but this situation is extreme.

There was totally a story like this where a group of women from OH had a rental in Ft. Myers beach and assumed it was “safe” to go because the rental company didn’t cancel. One of them died.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is from the article OP linked above in first post.

"However, should a host not cancel first, the situation becomes more complex, particularly with Airbnb, given its cancellation policy specifically excludes the annual storm season in Florida. Airbnb says that it offers refunds for “events beyond one’s control”, including some extreme weather events and natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, but despite this, the company deems tropical hurricanes and storms in the state between June and November to be “foreseeable” and its cancellation policy does not result in refunds under those circumstances.

Meanwhile, a Vrbo spokeswoman told The New York Times that “natural disasters, such as hurricanes or wildfires, do not override the cancellation policy set by the host and agreed to by the guest when they book”.

BUT this isn't a cancellation due to a hurricane. It is a cancellation because the condo is not habitable/destroyed/island is not available to non-owners. Definitely dispute with the credit card, airbnb are going to lose.

DP. You don’t know that the unit is uninhabitable, and you don’t know that it won’t be available to non-visitors next week. But all that aside, all of those issue absolutely do arise out of a hurricane and so very likely does fall within the scope of this policy.

So you’re saying if the house wasn’t inhabitable for other reasons, then the renter would be entitled to a refund? That makes no sense.

Sure it makes sense if hurricanes are specifically excluded, which it sounds like they are.

What's the time limit on this? Some VRBO and AirBnb reservations don't allow for cancelations after 24-36 hours. If a house was washed away in this hurricane and someone booked for next June, does the owner still keep the money if there is literally no house available? What if the house was damaged but the owner just can't be bothered to make needed repairs for 6 months because they get to keep all the rental fees anyways? That can't be right. The owner has an obligation to live up to their end of an agreement and provide a rental unit. It's not a blank check to cite a hurricane that happened in the past and keep the money.

You can complain to vrbo and airbnb if you get there and the house is not there or there are safety issues and they will force the owner to refund. If anyone could complain before coming then you'd see a lot of problems. The key is to either buy hurricane insurance or show up to the place and then complain. Pretty standard and makes sense.

Anonymous wrote:This is probably why some people died in the hurricane. They couldn’t get a refund.

Even if I couldn’t get a refund, I would not go on a trip to a hurricane.

I can see both sides. The contract may say no cancellations but this situation is extreme.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Welcome to VRBO. They will do nothing to help you, OP. I was ghosted by an owner when I tried to cancel (within the terms of the contract) and VRBO admitted they were wrong but did absolutely nothing to help. The VRBO “guarantee” is worthless. They suggested that I challenge the charge on my credit card. They will not even provide you with a form to file a claim. I sent a letter and got back a polite FU letter from the VRBO legal department. It’s why I will never use VRBO again. They charge outrageous fees and do nothing at all in exchange. You might as well be renting on Craig’s List.

You don’t seem to understand what VRBO is, and expect it to act as a property manager in at least some respects, like managing rental payments and reservations. VRBO (and Airbnb) are never going to do that, in part because it would require becoming licensed as property managers in every state that requires it (which gets expensive), and in part because, by acting as property managers, they could become legally responsible for things like making sure all rental units are up to code, property owners don’t violate anti-discrimination laws, and all rental units have necessary business licenses and permits. That is not something VRBO is ever going to take on, so they make very sure to structure themselves solely as a matching service for owners and prospective renters, without taking on any responsibilities that could be construed as property management.

As a result, VRBO had limited options for remedying your situation. If a property owner violates their rules, they can ban the owner from using the site going forward but they otherwise can do very little to help you without risking violating the law.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get that maybe legally OP is out the $. However, it’s just wrong for the owner to not refund the money given the condo is uninhabitable. It’s unethical and bad karma.

No, it isn’t. People get what they pay for in this context. People generally turn to VRBO or AirBNB when they don’t want to pay higher rates to rent a house through a rental company or pay for a hotel room/suite. But as the NYT article posted a page or two back shows, those bargains come with drawbacks. People who paid for hotels or rented through established rental agencies are generally getting refunds or credits for a future stay, because that’s one of the benefits you get when you pay more for these services/facilities. If you go the discount route *and* you go even cheaper by not buying trip insurance, you are getting the bargain you chose if you aren’t entitled to a refund, and there is nothing unethical about holding someone to their agreements.

VRBO and Air BnBs are generally NOT cheaper than renting through a rental company (usually renting via a rental company is cheaper). So you've got the wrong. The fees that both platforms now charge are outrageous.

Some owners rent exclusively via AirBnB and VRBO.

There is no discount. Have you even rented through them in the last few years?

we've rented from rental companies and they are terrible since reviews can't hold them accountable. Terrible meaning dirty, rooms not ready, safety maintenance issues. Where as VRBO and AIRBNB reviews keep both the owner and guest accountable.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

If you accept payment via credit card, you've agreed that their agreements supersede yours

Absolutely not. If you have a binding agreement that clearly spells out the obligations of each party then the credit card company will stay out of the dispute -- as the terms of your private contract is binding. It is where there is no contract or the contract does not address the issue that the credit card company and its terms may come into play.

-a lawyer

Your credit card company goes by their merchant agreement in adjudicating a dispute and those clearly require refunds when services paid for are not provided

Not if in your contract you agreed to pay with no refunds or exceptions for Acts of God.

Amex's merchant agreement specifically prohibits those clauses

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

If you accept payment via credit card, you've agreed that their agreements supersede yours

Absolutely not. If you have a binding agreement that clearly spells out the obligations of each party then the credit card company will stay out of the dispute -- as the terms of your private contract is binding. It is where there is no contract or the contract does not address the issue that the credit card company and its terms may come into play.

-a lawyer

Your credit card company goes by their merchant agreement in adjudicating a dispute and those clearly require refunds when services paid for are not provided

Not if in your contract you agreed to pay with no refunds or exceptions for Acts of God.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

If you accept payment via credit card, you've agreed that their agreements supersede yours

Absolutely not. If you have a binding agreement that clearly spells out the obligations of each party then the credit card company will stay out of the dispute -- as the terms of your private contract is binding. It is where there is no contract or the contract does not address the issue that the credit card company and its terms may come into play.

-a lawyer

Your credit card company goes by their merchant agreement in adjudicating a dispute and those clearly require refunds when services paid for are not provided