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Anonymous wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24ryHuOLVmQ. From Haviv Rettig Gur. He is an Israeli journalist, but not a right-winger, and has been quite critical of the Israeli government and its actions in Gaza.

FWIW, I am very much NOT a Trump supporter and certainly do not believe his motives vis a vis Iran are pure. That said, I've never understood (and still don't) the position that everything America does in the Middle East is at Israel's behest or on Israel's behalf. Two seconds of scrutiny would reveal that to be ridiculous. The attack on Iran benefits Israel, yes - that is absolutely undeniable. But the US independently perceives it to be in the US's interests, for several reasons: (1) it threatens Chinese/Russian hegemonic ambitions, (2) it pushes Iran's Arab neighbors closer to the US, and (3) it weakens an American adversary and reduces the threat of a nuclear Iran. Whether the attack can/will actually achieve these aims (or whether these aims are worth achieving) is certainly up for debate. Personally, I'm skeptical, but also don't think the US is WORSE off for having eliminated Khamenei and damaged the power structure surrounding him. If the US gets bogged down in a ground war, that calculus changes obviously.

But seriously - why would America, the most powerful country in the world, act exclusively on behalf of Israel, a tiny, politically fractured nation of ten million people? Some nebulous "Israel lobby" that somehow pulls all the strings in US politics? That strikes me as conspiracy theory nonsense. Funds expended by AIPAC and other pro-Israel organizations are absolutely DWARFED by political spending by Arab nations. Take Qatar for instance. Since about 2017, Qatar has spent on the order of $225 – $256 million on registered lobbying, public relations, and related paid influence work. That's not including the billions (yes billions) of dollars it has given to U.S. universities and educational programs. And that's ONE country. The Middle East is full of oil-rich Arab/Muslim-majority countries who likewise spend billions on influencing U.S. politics.

If someone can explain this to me with actual sources (that aren't, like, Al Jazeera), I'd appreciate it because I am actually curious what animates this view other than bizarre monomania re: Israel.

Why does our government uphold a totally broken healthcare system? Money. The answer is always money. There is money behind the Israeli lobby. That’s literally it.

The reason for this war is that something terrible is in the Epstein files. That’s it. It’s not geopolitically wise to go after Persia.

Persia predates Judaism. It will outlast Judaism and Christianity. It has never been colonized. Oil prices will go through the roof. This is stupid.

Maybe I am being quaint but it is actually totally illegal to attack other sovereign nations because you don’t like their leaders.

Also, we killed Khamenei and our prize is a younger Khamenei.

The Arab countries do not have real skin in the game vis a vis Israel. They do not care what happens to the Palestinians. Egypt is the only country that has ever taken action on behalf of Israel.

Yeah this doesn't answer my question, like at all. Again, spending by lobby groups representing countries hostile to Israel far, FAR outstrips spending by the Israel lobby. And FWIW, the term "Israel Lobby" includes groups like J Street, which believe Israel should exist but oppose the current war in Iran. So why do people think the US is acting primarily/exclusively at the behest of Israel?

If your argument is that the Arab countries also support a war in Iran, then again - why is Israel being blamed exclusively? It would seem, if you're correct, that everyone in the region benefits from a weaker Iran. It would seem, in fact, that the only people who benefit from a nuclear/strong/unchecked Iranian regime are the members of that regime itself.

"Maybe I am being quaint but it is actually totally illegal to attack other sovereign nations because you don’t like their leaders." Ah yes, the inevitable appeal to international law. It is pretty quaint actually. What is international law nowadays, and who does it benefit? In 2026, the United Nations elected - you guessed it - IRAN vice-chair of its Charter Committee. Where was international law when 40,000 unarmed Iranian civilians were butchered by their own government? Ask yourself - whose sovereignty are you protecting? Certainly not that of the Iranian people, who overwhelmingly oppose the current regime, didn't vote for it, and are willing to die to overthrow it.

I think "if you threaten us, attack our allies, illegally seek to acquire nukes, and slaughter tens of thousands of your own people, we are going to do something about it" is a pretty good precedent to set, actually. Whether it ends up benefitting the US long term is an open question that neither you nor I know the answer to, but I'm not losing a single wink of sleep over the IRGC's "sovereignty."

What do you think the Arab countries are advocating for, exactly? They don’t give 2 sh**s about Israel. They have much bigger, real governance issues. They want to increase trade, they want military hardware (and now you can see why). Gulf states are not actually that rich or that productive, and the more forward thinking leaders are trying to prepare for a future where oil is worth less and they still have to feed their people.

Ok so you're saying the Arab countries oppose the strike on Iran? I don't think that's accurate but let's assume you're right. Again, lobbying dollars expended by Arab states to influence US politics far outstrips funds expended by the "Israel lobby." So why do you think America is acting on Israel's behalf as opposed to on behalf of those nations?

Or if you're saying the Arab countries are agnostic about/in favor a strike on Iran - great. So who opposes it exactly? The Iranian regime? Why should I care what they think exactly? So far, the strike has had zero negative repercussions for the US that I can see (minus a very, very few casualties on the US side. Far fewer than the number of Americans that have been killed by Iran's terror proxies).

I just don't get this line of thinking. The US is not a puppet state of Israel. That's Islamist propaganda BS 101. It's astounding that educated Americans fall for this third-world nonsense.

But that's basically what Rubio said on Monday.

Also, Mike Johnson.

And Tom Cotton.

Until they got the memo with the new talking points yesterday.

But it's too late. Everyone now knows that Israel is in charge our foreign policy and led us into this war.

Again - nobody is answering my question. If you think Israel is in charge of our foreign policy, why? How? Literally how is a tiny country the size of New Jersey with ten million inhabitants running the foreign policy of the most powerful country in the world? I have submitted to you that the "Israel lobby" is far eclipsed by the collective lobbying power/dollars of Arab states who are typically hostile to its interests. So aside from conspiracy theories, what's your explanation?

NP.

The Why is easy. If you could use some other country's money/manpower/resources to prosecute your grievances, wouldn't you do it?

The How is because AIPAC has oversized influence in our political process. They have helped elect many of the people (both Republicans and Democrats) in charge of making these decisions, pretty much to ensure that the funds to support Israel flow to Israel without any hinderance. They have also helped fund the opponents of politicians that were anti-Israel, to ensure that the politicians in charge are always cognizant of the well-being of Israel. It has certainly helped their cause that the extremist Muslims in the ME are in fact a genuine threat to the Western world.

This veers into conspiracy theory territory because we do not have solid proof at the moment, but there is reason to believe that Epstein was a Mossad asset, and he was using his sex trafficking ring to trap rich and powerful men around the world. If Israel has material that incriminates Trump or others in his orbit, that would be all they need to really get him to do their bidding. This would answer the 'Why now?' question.

I don't see why you are so adamant about not believing Rubio/Johnson/Cotton who said out loud what they should not have, that the US was essentially pushed into this war by the actions of Israel.

This. Isn’t the majority of AIPAC donors American?

Anonymous wrote:I'm sick and tired of hearing the constant "Zionists" this and "antisemitic" that.

Khameini and Iran's mullahs are evil and need to be removed from power.

Netanyahu is evil and needs to be removed from power.

Trump is evil and needs to be removed from power.

I could give two shits about their presumed religions and frankly think they ALL abuse the religions that they profess to hold. But it's not about religion. I don't like how they run their countries or how they treat people.

Anonymous wrote:Graham Platner on Iran: “Nobody wants this war. They know what it’s actually about. This is a war being pushed by Benjamin Netanyahu. He’s been trying to make this war happen for almost 30 years. This war is also being pushed because Donald Trump is in the Epstein Files”

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Anonymous wrote:Yeah that's all fascinating unfortunately I like to rely on things verifiable. I can buy outsized Israeli/Netanyahu influence over Trump or US politics, but I can also see it as an excuse to dabble in anti-semitism and there's a lot of it at the moment.

Your positions seem to be “only the things I think matter, actually matter” which I mean, more power to you.

But a lot of us are more worried about WWIII breaking out than the spectre of antisemitism.

Facts matter, conspiracy theories, not so much.

How is it a conspiracy? Benjamin Netanyahu said publically that he’s waited for this for 40 years. He’s made numerous speeches going back decades about the importance of the US invading Iran and toppling their regime. Israel wants to be the only nuclear power in the region. They lie and claim they don’t have nukes but we all know they do. Even if Iran was enriching uranium to 60% as reported and not 90% which is needed to make bombs, that’s still a risk they weren’t willing to take because if the Palestinians have a nuclear armed friend who can leverage their rights in the region, then the whole identity of Israel falls apart without apartheid

Well recently in this thread we have speculation that Epstein was a mossad agent, other forms of espionage, having 'dirt' on Trump & other politicians. People said the same thing in the wake of 9/11 that it was Jews because it triggered a US response beneficial to them.

Anonymous wrote:I don’t associate all Jews with Netanyahu but goodness, he’s not a smooth operator at all. He shows all his cards! Frankly, Iran had a 20 year lead time to prepare since the “axis of evil” speech in 2002. They knew this day would come and I really don’t think they will go away easily. It’s obvious this administration and Israel are underprepared and are scrambling and it’s also obvious they didn’t organize or warn their Gulf allies. Who conducts a war in such a haphazard way especially with a 20 year lead time?

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Anonymous wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24ryHuOLVmQ. From Haviv Rettig Gur. He is an Israeli journalist, but not a right-winger, and has been quite critical of the Israeli government and its actions in Gaza.

FWIW, I am very much NOT a Trump supporter and certainly do not believe his motives vis a vis Iran are pure. That said, I've never understood (and still don't) the position that everything America does in the Middle East is at Israel's behest or on Israel's behalf. Two seconds of scrutiny would reveal that to be ridiculous. The attack on Iran benefits Israel, yes - that is absolutely undeniable. But the US independently perceives it to be in the US's interests, for several reasons: (1) it threatens Chinese/Russian hegemonic ambitions, (2) it pushes Iran's Arab neighbors closer to the US, and (3) it weakens an American adversary and reduces the threat of a nuclear Iran. Whether the attack can/will actually achieve these aims (or whether these aims are worth achieving) is certainly up for debate. Personally, I'm skeptical, but also don't think the US is WORSE off for having eliminated Khamenei and damaged the power structure surrounding him. If the US gets bogged down in a ground war, that calculus changes obviously.

But seriously - why would America, the most powerful country in the world, act exclusively on behalf of Israel, a tiny, politically fractured nation of ten million people? Some nebulous "Israel lobby" that somehow pulls all the strings in US politics? That strikes me as conspiracy theory nonsense. Funds expended by AIPAC and other pro-Israel organizations are absolutely DWARFED by political spending by Arab nations. Take Qatar for instance. Since about 2017, Qatar has spent on the order of $225 – $256 million on registered lobbying, public relations, and related paid influence work. That's not including the billions (yes billions) of dollars it has given to U.S. universities and educational programs. And that's ONE country. The Middle East is full of oil-rich Arab/Muslim-majority countries who likewise spend billions on influencing U.S. politics.

If someone can explain this to me with actual sources (that aren't, like, Al Jazeera), I'd appreciate it because I am actually curious what animates this view other than bizarre monomania re: Israel.

Why does our government uphold a totally broken healthcare system? Money. The answer is always money. There is money behind the Israeli lobby. That’s literally it.

The reason for this war is that something terrible is in the Epstein files. That’s it. It’s not geopolitically wise to go after Persia.

Persia predates Judaism. It will outlast Judaism and Christianity. It has never been colonized. Oil prices will go through the roof. This is stupid.

Maybe I am being quaint but it is actually totally illegal to attack other sovereign nations because you don’t like their leaders.

Also, we killed Khamenei and our prize is a younger Khamenei.

The Arab countries do not have real skin in the game vis a vis Israel. They do not care what happens to the Palestinians. Egypt is the only country that has ever taken action on behalf of Israel.

Yeah this doesn't answer my question, like at all. Again, spending by lobby groups representing countries hostile to Israel far, FAR outstrips spending by the Israel lobby. And FWIW, the term "Israel Lobby" includes groups like J Street, which believe Israel should exist but oppose the current war in Iran. So why do people think the US is acting primarily/exclusively at the behest of Israel?

If your argument is that the Arab countries also support a war in Iran, then again - why is Israel being blamed exclusively? It would seem, if you're correct, that everyone in the region benefits from a weaker Iran. It would seem, in fact, that the only people who benefit from a nuclear/strong/unchecked Iranian regime are the members of that regime itself.

"Maybe I am being quaint but it is actually totally illegal to attack other sovereign nations because you don’t like their leaders." Ah yes, the inevitable appeal to international law. It is pretty quaint actually. What is international law nowadays, and who does it benefit? In 2026, the United Nations elected - you guessed it - IRAN vice-chair of its Charter Committee. Where was international law when 40,000 unarmed Iranian civilians were butchered by their own government? Ask yourself - whose sovereignty are you protecting? Certainly not that of the Iranian people, who overwhelmingly oppose the current regime, didn't vote for it, and are willing to die to overthrow it.

I think "if you threaten us, attack our allies, illegally seek to acquire nukes, and slaughter tens of thousands of your own people, we are going to do something about it" is a pretty good precedent to set, actually. Whether it ends up benefitting the US long term is an open question that neither you nor I know the answer to, but I'm not losing a single wink of sleep over the IRGC's "sovereignty."

What do you think the Arab countries are advocating for, exactly? They don’t give 2 sh**s about Israel. They have much bigger, real governance issues. They want to increase trade, they want military hardware (and now you can see why). Gulf states are not actually that rich or that productive, and the more forward thinking leaders are trying to prepare for a future where oil is worth less and they still have to feed their people.

Ok so you're saying the Arab countries oppose the strike on Iran? I don't think that's accurate but let's assume you're right. Again, lobbying dollars expended by Arab states to influence US politics far outstrips funds expended by the "Israel lobby." So why do you think America is acting on Israel's behalf as opposed to on behalf of those nations?

Or if you're saying the Arab countries are agnostic about/in favor a strike on Iran - great. So who opposes it exactly? The Iranian regime? Why should I care what they think exactly? So far, the strike has had zero negative repercussions for the US that I can see (minus a very, very few casualties on the US side. Far fewer than the number of Americans that have been killed by Iran's terror proxies).

I just don't get this line of thinking. The US is not a puppet state of Israel. That's Islamist propaganda BS 101. It's astounding that educated Americans fall for this third-world nonsense.

But that's basically what Rubio said on Monday.

Also, Mike Johnson.

And Tom Cotton.

Until they got the memo with the new talking points yesterday.

But it's too late. Everyone now knows that Israel is in charge our foreign policy and led us into this war.

Again - nobody is answering my question. If you think Israel is in charge of our foreign policy, why? How? Literally how is a tiny country the size of New Jersey with ten million inhabitants running the foreign policy of the most powerful country in the world? I have submitted to you that the "Israel lobby" is far eclipsed by the collective lobbying power/dollars of Arab states who are typically hostile to its interests. So aside from conspiracy theories, what's your explanation?

NP.

The Why is easy. If you could use some other country's money/manpower/resources to prosecute your grievances, wouldn't you do it?

The How is because AIPAC has oversized influence in our political process. They have helped elect many of the people (both Republicans and Democrats) in charge of making these decisions, pretty much to ensure that the funds to support Israel flow to Israel without any hinderance. They have also helped fund the opponents of politicians that were anti-Israel, to ensure that the politicians in charge are always cognizant of the well-being of Israel. It has certainly helped their cause that the extremist Muslims in the ME are in fact a genuine threat to the Western world.

This veers into conspiracy theory territory because we do not have solid proof at the moment, but there is reason to believe that Epstein was a Mossad asset, and he was using his sex trafficking ring to trap rich and powerful men around the world. If Israel has material that incriminates Trump or others in his orbit, that would be all they need to really get him to do their bidding. This would answer the 'Why now?' question.

I don't see why you are so adamant about not believing Rubio/Johnson/Cotton who said out loud what they should not have, that the US was essentially pushed into this war by the actions of Israel.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Yeah that's all fascinating unfortunately I like to rely on things verifiable. I can buy outsized Israeli/Netanyahu influence over Trump or US politics, but I can also see it as an excuse to dabble in anti-semitism and there's a lot of it at the moment.

Your positions seem to be “only the things I think matter, actually matter” which I mean, more power to you.

But a lot of us are more worried about WWIII breaking out than the spectre of antisemitism.

Facts matter, conspiracy theories, not so much.

How is it a conspiracy? Benjamin Netanyahu said publically that he’s waited for this for 40 years. He’s made numerous speeches going back decades about the importance of the US invading Iran and toppling their regime. Israel wants to be the only nuclear power in the region. They lie and claim they don’t have nukes but we all know they do. Even if Iran was enriching uranium to 60% as reported and not 90% which is needed to make bombs, that’s still a risk they weren’t willing to take because if the Palestinians have a nuclear armed friend who can leverage their rights in the region, then the whole identity of Israel falls apart without apartheid

Well recently in this thread we have speculation that Epstein was a mossad agent, other forms of espionage, having 'dirt' on Trump & other politicians. People said the same thing in the wake of 9/11 that it was Jews because it triggered a US response beneficial to them.

Anonymous wrote:Yeah that's all fascinating unfortunately I like to rely on things verifiable. I can buy outsized Israeli/Netanyahu influence over Trump or US politics, but I can also see it as an excuse to dabble in anti-semitism and there's a lot of it at the moment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah that's all fascinating unfortunately I like to rely on things verifiable. I can buy outsized Israeli/Netanyahu influence over Trump or US politics, but I can also see it as an excuse to dabble in anti-semitism and there's a lot of it at the moment.

Your positions seem to be “only the things I think matter, actually matter” which I mean, more power to you.

But a lot of us are more worried about WWIII breaking out than the spectre of antisemitism.

Facts matter, conspiracy theories, not so much.

Anonymous wrote:Yeah that's all fascinating unfortunately I like to rely on things verifiable. I can buy outsized Israeli/Netanyahu influence over Trump or US politics, but I can also see it as an excuse to dabble in anti-semitism and there's a lot of it at the moment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah that's all fascinating unfortunately I like to rely on things verifiable. I can buy outsized Israeli/Netanyahu influence over Trump or US politics, but I can also see it as an excuse to dabble in anti-semitism and there's a lot of it at the moment.

Your positions seem to be “only the things I think matter, actually matter” which I mean, more power to you.

But a lot of us are more worried about WWIII breaking out than the spectre of antisemitism.

Facts matter, conspiracy theories, not so much.

How is it a conspiracy? Benjamin Netanyahu said publically that he’s waited for this for 40 years. He’s made numerous speeches going back decades about the importance of the US invading Iran and toppling their regime. Israel wants to be the only nuclear power in the region. They lie and claim they don’t have nukes but we all know they do. Even if Iran was enriching uranium to 60% as reported and not 90% which is needed to make bombs, that’s still a risk they weren’t willing to take because if the Palestinians have a nuclear armed friend who can leverage their rights in the region, then the whole identity of Israel falls apart without apartheid