Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

The family is withholding the name. They have a right to grieve without maga dragging their loved one for being a woman. They are likely scared based on what is happening right in front of our faces.

We all understand why the family is withholding the name (exhibit A all over this thread). We also understand that the army is saying that they are keeping the name quiet out of deference to the family's wishes. Some people think that the military has ulterior motives.

I am not a conspiracy theorist but I tend to believe that the military does what is best for them. It may simply be that they are buying some time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

The family is withholding the name. They have a right to grieve without maga dragging their loved one for being a woman. They are likely scared based on what is happening right in front of our faces.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

The family is withholding the name. They have a right to grieve without maga dragging their loved one for being a woman. They are likely scared based on what is happening right in front of our faces.

Scared of what? Words and perception?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

The family is withholding the name. They have a right to grieve without maga dragging their loved one for being a woman. They are likely scared based on what is happening right in front of our faces.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So they've finally announced that a black box has been recovered from the helicopter. Previously they'd only mentioned the two black boxes from the AA plane.

I'm relieved to hear both that one exists from the helicopter and that the military is acknowledging its existence, which increases the odds that we will actually learn what is on it.

Why do YOU need to learn what was on it? So you can commence with your armchair sleuthing? What do you bring to the table? What are your qualifications?

WE get to know what’s on it because WE fly out of that damn airport all the time and WE live below it’s flight path so WE get to demand transparency and accurate information so we can trust that this won’t happen again.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After what happened to Kobe Bryant (and his daughter and her friend) wouldn't more celebrities be afraid of using a helicopter as a taxi for transport? Helicopters are not safe. It's is a really bad idea to use a helicopter as a taxi for a daily commute even for very stupid celebrities like the ones we currently have in the Whitehouse and Cabinet.

It is not for the persons bolded above let them fly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can help but wonder what would have happened if the ATC had been a tad more explicit in his second communication: "PAT 25 you are on collision course with plane landing at runway 33". I'm not saying he was or should have been required to say this but I wonder if the ATCs at Reagan should NOT have placed so much trust in military helos given all the issues that have apparently been going on forever with near collisions and planes having to abort landing and them flying above 200. Maybe if they were not short staffed, the ATC might have said something more explicit.

What is protocol? Had he broken protocol and crash still happened, he’d be roasted. Oh wait, he already has been.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So they've finally announced that a black box has been recovered from the helicopter. Previously they'd only mentioned the two black boxes from the AA plane.

I'm relieved to hear both that one exists from the helicopter and that the military is acknowledging its existence, which increases the odds that we will actually learn what is on it.

Why do YOU need to learn what was on it? So you can commence with your armchair sleuthing? What do you bring to the table? What are your qualifications?

WE get to know what’s on it because WE fly out of that damn airport all the time and WE live below it’s flight path so WE get to demand transparency and accurate information so we can trust that this won’t happen again.

Anonymous wrote:I can help but wonder what would have happened if the ATC had been a tad more explicit in his second communication: "PAT 25 you are on collision course with plane landing at runway 33". I'm not saying he was or should have been required to say this but I wonder if the ATCs at Reagan should NOT have placed so much trust in military helos given all the issues that have apparently been going on forever with near collisions and planes having to abort landing and them flying above 200. Maybe if they were not short staffed, the ATC might have said something more explicit.

Anonymous wrote:I can help but wonder what would have happened if the ATC had been a tad more explicit in his second communication: "PAT 25 you are on collision course with plane landing at runway 33". I'm not saying he was or should have been required to say this but I wonder if the ATCs at Reagan should NOT have placed so much trust in military helos given all the issues that have apparently been going on forever with near collisions and planes having to abort landing and them flying above 200. Maybe if they were not short staffed, the ATC might have said something more explicit.

Anonymous wrote:I can help but wonder what would have happened if the ATC had been a tad more explicit in his second communication: "PAT 25 you are on collision course with plane landing at runway 33". I'm not saying he was or should have been required to say this but I wonder if the ATCs at Reagan should NOT have placed so much trust in military helos given all the issues that have apparently been going on forever with near collisions and planes having to abort landing and them flying above 200. Maybe if they were not short staffed, the ATC might have said something more explicit.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So they've finally announced that a black box has been recovered from the helicopter. Previously they'd only mentioned the two black boxes from the AA plane.

I'm relieved to hear both that one exists from the helicopter and that the military is acknowledging its existence, which increases the odds that we will actually learn what is on it.

Why do YOU need to learn what was on it? So you can commence with your armchair sleuthing? What do you bring to the table? What are your qualifications?