Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Stop.
Learn what a crew chief is before you post anything more.

Anonymous wrote:The previous government also frequently flew by helicopter. It is a pretty established way of travel for high level politicians, celebrities etc and isn't something new.

Yes. And while I am one of the people trying to bring attention to this established protocol, I have been very careful to not place blame on the current administration.

That said, the increase in helicopters in the last few weeks was discussed before this accident.

All of this data needs to be studied. And to those saying that the public doesn't need to no anything, I personally am not in any rush. But yes, the public needs to know. Transparency is the only way to ensure accountability. And I personally will always trust and outside group, even independent journalists, to conduct an investigation more than whomever Trump will appoint. If it's a sycophant toady, the investigation is worthless.

The previous government also frequently flew by helicopter. It is a pretty established way of travel for high level politicians, celebrities etc and isn't something new.

Anonymous wrote:After what happened to Kobe Bryant (and his daughter and her friend) wouldn't more celebrities be afraid of using a helicopter as a taxi for transport? Helicopters are not safe. It's is a really bad idea to use a helicopter as a taxi for a daily commute even for very stupid celebrities like the ones we currently have in the Whitehouse and Cabinet.

It is not for the persons bolded above let them fly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Anonymous wrote:After what happened to Kobe Bryant (and his daughter and her friend) wouldn't more celebrities be afraid of using a helicopter as a taxi for transport? Helicopters are not safe. It's is a really bad idea to use a helicopter as a taxi for a daily commute even for very stupid celebrities like the ones we currently have in the Whitehouse and Cabinet.

There are about 10000 commercial helicopters registered to fly and about 3300 military helicopters. There are a lot of helicopter flights every single day. The risk for a fatality in a helicopter is .73 per 100,000 flight hours.

After what happened to Kobe Bryant (and his daughter and her friend) wouldn't more celebrities be afraid of using a helicopter as a taxi for transport? Helicopters are not safe. It's is a really bad idea to use a helicopter as a taxi for a daily commute even for very stupid celebrities like the ones we currently have in the Whitehouse and Cabinet.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So they've finally announced that a black box has been recovered from the helicopter. Previously they'd only mentioned the two black boxes from the AA plane.

I'm relieved to hear both that one exists from the helicopter and that the military is acknowledging its existence, which increases the odds that we will actually learn what is on it.

Why do YOU need to learn what was on it? So you can commence with your armchair sleuthing? What do you bring to the table? What are your qualifications?

The public needs to know what's on it.

67 people died.

I hope that experts in the field (at NTSB, the Army, and in the independent press) will analyze the data and help the public, including me, understand.

It's not weird or inappropriate to want the truth to come out here.

Anonymous wrote:So they've finally announced that a black box has been recovered from the helicopter. Previously they'd only mentioned the two black boxes from the AA plane.

I'm relieved to hear both that one exists from the helicopter and that the military is acknowledging its existence, which increases the odds that we will actually learn what is on it.

Why do YOU need to learn what was on it? So you can commence with your armchair sleuthing? What do you bring to the table? What are your qualifications?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s ridiculous fixating on/bickering about the individual pilots and their qualifications. Ridiculous. Incidents like this are a failure of process and policy, not of individual people. You can never rely on people to have perfect judgment or experience. Processes must account for that. Period. If it was possible for this to happen “by accident” then that’s not OK and multiple major changes need to be made.

With the enormity of this tragedy, try gaining some perspective and realize these petty fights are not worth having.

Well said. Thank you.

+1000000!

This is it: It’s ridiculous fixating on/bickering about the individual pilots and their qualifications. Ridiculous. Incidents like this are a failure of process and policy, not of individual people. You can never rely on people to have perfect judgment or experience. Processes must account for that. Period. If it was possible for this to happen “by accident” then that’s not OK and multiple major changes need to be made.

With the enormity of this tragedy, try gaining some perspective and realize these petty fights are not worth having.

Everyone else STFU. And now they seem to have come to their senses and changed the process - no more helicopters in flight paths is the right process There is NOBODY who is infallible. You are then a machine and not a human if you are infallible. That helicopter may have messed up - but maybe they didn't - we'll never know what they saw or did not see. The way to approach this is to call it a tragedy of major proportions and learn how to ensure it does not happen again. There has been a pattern of near misses so these 2 planes just paid the ultimate price. It was not the first or second or even 5th time this could have happened.

Absolutely not at all ridiculous to expect to be told who was piloting a helicopter that killed 60+ civilians. When in the history of major airplane disasters has the name of the pilot behind the controls NOT been reported, but moreover, intentionally withheld

They’re probably withholding the name to prepare the family for the vitriol that is going be unleashed on their daughter/sister/wife/niece, etc . It’s going to be ugly for them once the name is released.

We know the names of all the men involved. Why is she being treated differently?

Are feminists ok with this?

Maybe you’d like your hand held through this…

The men will not be dragged for being obvious DEI hires (provided they are white). It will be a default assumption that they are qualified. It will be a default response that she could not have possibly been (again, because of the being a woman thing).

Got that, champ?

Either way, they are dead. So, it doesn’t matter anyhow. They’re dead now.

It matters to the grieving family and friends.

It matters for citizens to know and understand what fully went wrong in the BH. AA pilots did exactly as they were told. ATC followed protocol. The BH crew, for whatever reason, did not follow protocol, and as a result, 60+ innocent people are dead.

Why do YOU need to know anything? Your knowledge of anyone’s name or, frankly, qualifications, is irrelevant. You aren’t conducting an investigation. You aren’t owed anything.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

+1 Exactly. I'm sure some of their family members would have preferred anonymity, too.

Those families talked to the press or posted on Facebook.

Stop trying to start rumors.

Not starting rumors. Was referring to last sentence of the previous poster. In the past when disasters have happened, we've been told the names of the driver, pilot, captain, etc. I'm sure sone of their family members would have preferred anonymity, too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

They couldn’t see these planes lights?

Do you know for a fact the pilot was alive at impact?

You don’t. Let the people do their investigation.

You think you know all. But you don’t.

Given the responses to ATC, yes!

Based on the recordings that have been released, at least 1 male was alive and was the only person responding to ATC.

I think that is a very interesting point. Why would someone not controlling the BH say the saw the airplane. Maybe the woman pilot was not flying the BH.

Tammy Duckworth explained in a statement that the pilot flying the plane is using both arms and operate plane and putting all the effort to staying on course. It’s the copilot that mans the radio and talks with ATC

Both hands and both feet: pilot in command.

Thrust hand
left/right hand

Nose up foot
Nose down foot

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

They couldn’t see these planes lights?

Do you know for a fact the pilot was alive at impact?

You don’t. Let the people do their investigation.

You think you know all. But you don’t.

Given the responses to ATC, yes!

Based on the recordings that have been released, at least 1 male was alive and was the only person responding to ATC.

I think that is a very interesting point. Why would someone not controlling the BH say the saw the airplane. Maybe the woman pilot was not flying the BH.

Tammy Duckworth explained in a statement that the pilot flying the plane is using both arms and operate plane and putting all the effort to staying on course. It’s the copilot that mans the radio and talks with ATC

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s ridiculous fixating on/bickering about the individual pilots and their qualifications. Ridiculous. Incidents like this are a failure of process and policy, not of individual people. You can never rely on people to have perfect judgment or experience. Processes must account for that. Period. If it was possible for this to happen “by accident” then that’s not OK and multiple major changes need to be made.

With the enormity of this tragedy, try gaining some perspective and realize these petty fights are not worth having.

Well said. Thank you.

+1000000!

This is it: It’s ridiculous fixating on/bickering about the individual pilots and their qualifications. Ridiculous. Incidents like this are a failure of process and policy, not of individual people. You can never rely on people to have perfect judgment or experience. Processes must account for that. Period. If it was possible for this to happen “by accident” then that’s not OK and multiple major changes need to be made.

With the enormity of this tragedy, try gaining some perspective and realize these petty fights are not worth having.

Everyone else STFU. And now they seem to have come to their senses and changed the process - no more helicopters in flight paths is the right process There is NOBODY who is infallible. You are then a machine and not a human if you are infallible. That helicopter may have messed up - but maybe they didn't - we'll never know what they saw or did not see. The way to approach this is to call it a tragedy of major proportions and learn how to ensure it does not happen again. There has been a pattern of near misses so these 2 planes just paid the ultimate price. It was not the first or second or even 5th time this could have happened.

Absolutely not at all ridiculous to expect to be told who was piloting a helicopter that killed 60+ civilians. When in the history of major airplane disasters has the name of the pilot behind the controls NOT been reported, but moreover, intentionally withheld

They’re probably withholding the name to prepare the family for the vitriol that is going be unleashed on their daughter/sister/wife/niece, etc . It’s going to be ugly for them once the name is released.

We know the names of all the men involved. Why is she being treated differently?

Are feminists ok with this?

It’s not a feminist thing. It’s a response to the current political environment.
Because women in the military are the target of the SecDef and the Pres who are encouraging the targeting. Their followers will say/do terrible things since they’ve been given a license to by the leaders. All blame will be on her. No matter what. There is no truth anymore with this administration.
Best to prepare the family.

No one is going to say jack about the two male military personnel. Because of the leaders have said men can do no wrong.

The end result will be the grounding all women military pilots.

-signed former military officer

Disagree. Any pilot that crashes their helicopter into a passenger jet, despite
all the warning and altitude restrictions that were not followed, should get an intense investigation into their training, qualifications, performances, and merit. And I’m sure the male pilot will, just as she will. That isn’t discriminating bc she is a woman- it is trying to figure out
What went wrong in training and preparation that could allow this to have happened

I agree with you. Additionally, these are Army Black Hawk pilots- not random pilots of a private helicopter. We should expect the standard to be perfection. It’s possible that due to errors in judgement these army pilots caused the deaths of civilians. It’s unacceptable and a right to privacy is no excuse for information to be withheld.

You better call the manager.