I have friendships with people who have cheated. I also have a friend who had a relationship with a married man.

I try not to reduce people to their worst decisions. I can acknowledge harm without pretending I’m morally superior or pretending I’ve never made mistakes. That said, if someone consistently shows a lack of integrity, that does affect how close I allow them to be.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:...who has done terrible things to other people?

It doesn't have to be Epstein-level crimes. Hopefully the number of people that evil are somewhat limited. Doesn't even have to be crimes. Maybe they cheat on their spouse, or are an abusive boss. Maybe they are cruel gossips. Anything that causes harm to other people.

Do you overlook behavior that harms others as long as the person isn't harming you?

Why?

Nope. Evil people hurt people because that's what evil people do. If you stick around, they'll ALWAYS get around to you eventually. I've seen it over and over again, and it's hard to feel sorry for the cronies who eventually become targets.

Nah, humanity isn't this black/white. It's way too easy, and intellectually lazy, to label people "evil". We've all got the capacity for evil, and we've all caused harm.

I disagree that all people have caused harm that can be categorized as "evil" though. Sure, everyone makes mistakes and I'm sure all people have hurt someone without intent before. I don't think all people have deliberately hurt someone else though. And even among people who have there are degrees of harm. I think (hope?) that everyone has a line somewhere and that behavior on the other side of that line would be enough for you to end a friendship. Like presumably (hopefully) you would not maintain a friendship with a murderer or a rapist. But would you maintain a friendship with... an embezzler? A drug dealer?

What if you found out your friend has spent all of HS and college bullying other girls over their weight and appearance? Or that your friend had knowingly spread an STD? What if you found out they routinely berated their kids for being lazy and stupid? Or that they used to take naked photos of their ex without them knowing? That they lied on their resume to get a job? Convinced a declining parent to disinherit a sibling? Was a doctor or therapist who broke confidentiality about their patients?

Where is your line?

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I'm talking specifically people who have done harm, not just people whose views you disagree with (or even find abhorrent).

I'm talking about situations where a person has hurt a person or persons (physically, emotionally, financially), you are aware they did it, they've never expressed remorse or made amends. So like just generally being anti-vax wouldn't fit, but knowingly sending an unvaccinated kid to school during a measles outbreak, resulting in that kid getting measles, would. Not saying being anti vax is good, but for purposes of these questions I'm thinking about concrete harm, not just thoughts or ideas.

I'm specifically interested in how people are willing to turn a blind eye when harm is done to others.

There's still way too much "why" left out of your question.

Sent the cootie kid to go in and spread measles deliberately, or sent their kid to school because they work two hourly jobs to make ends meet and don't have leave? One of those could be considered "evil", but I'd grant the other some grace.

Stealing is wrong, but stealing to keep your family fed isn't going to get you kicked out of my social circle, nor am I going to demand some elaborate show of atonement or remorse. Stealing because you wanted new shoes or a fancy purse is a different story.

I'm aware of at least some of the crap I myself have pulled in my 4+ decades on this planet. I'm far from perfect, so I don't demand perfection from my friends. But if, after conversation and a meeting of minds, there's no reconciliation or explanation for the behavior, yeah, I'm gonna distance myself.

Anonymous wrote:I don't work in the same field as my friends so I wouldn't know anything about them as bosses... and I assume they might not tell me if they cheat (some people never tell anybody, I'm assuming). So I don't know if I would know those things about most of my friends.

What if you found out. Would you continue being friends or would you cut them loose, even though they'd never done anything to hurt you?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:...who has done terrible things to other people?

It doesn't have to be Epstein-level crimes. Hopefully the number of people that evil are somewhat limited. Doesn't even have to be crimes. Maybe they cheat on their spouse, or are an abusive boss. Maybe they are cruel gossips. Anything that causes harm to other people.

Do you overlook behavior that harms others as long as the person isn't harming you?

Why?

Nope. Evil people hurt people because that's what evil people do. If you stick around, they'll ALWAYS get around to you eventually. I've seen it over and over again, and it's hard to feel sorry for the cronies who eventually become targets.

Nah, humanity isn't this black/white. It's way too easy, and intellectually lazy, to label people "evil". We've all got the capacity for evil, and we've all caused harm.

Anonymous wrote:...who has done terrible things to other people?

It doesn't have to be Epstein-level crimes. Hopefully the number of people that evil are somewhat limited. Doesn't even have to be crimes. Maybe they cheat on their spouse, or are an abusive boss. Maybe they are cruel gossips. Anything that causes harm to other people.

Do you overlook behavior that harms others as long as the person isn't harming you?

Why?

No. If that's who they are, why would you?

I don't work in the same field as my friends so I wouldn't know anything about them as bosses... and I assume they might not tell me if they cheat (some people never tell anybody, I'm assuming). So I don't know if I would know those things about most of my friends.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I'm talking specifically people who have done harm, not just people whose views you disagree with (or even find abhorrent).

I'm talking about situations where a person has hurt a person or persons (physically, emotionally, financially), you are aware they did it, they've never expressed remorse or made amends. So like just generally being anti-vax wouldn't fit, but knowingly sending an unvaccinated kid to school during a measles outbreak, resulting in that kid getting measles, would. Not saying being anti vax is good, but for purposes of these questions I'm thinking about concrete harm, not just thoughts or ideas.

I'm specifically interested in how people are willing to turn a blind eye when harm is done to others.

OP again, to clarify further.

I'm not interested in the question of whether you would remain friends with someone whose views offend you, personally, because the harm there is to you. The point of my question is where people draw the line regarding harm to other people. I want to know how you deal with people who have harmed other people, but not you. I want to know when people are (or are not) willing to draw lines on behalf of others.

My DH left me. And looking back it is a relief because he was constantly defending his friendships with vile people- people who had left their families in awful ways, or cheated and done cruel things, or had been shady in their business and academic dealings in order to get ahead. I realized too far in that someone who defends his associations with that behavior out of friendship is not a good and decent person who believes in selfless loyalty but is actually a bad person themselves.

OP here. I'm talking specifically people who have done harm, not just people whose views you disagree with (or even find abhorrent).

I'm talking about situations where a person has hurt a person or persons (physically, emotionally, financially), you are aware they did it, they've never expressed remorse or made amends. So like just generally being anti-vax wouldn't fit, but knowingly sending an unvaccinated kid to school during a measles outbreak, resulting in that kid getting measles, would. Not saying being anti vax is good, but for purposes of these questions I'm thinking about concrete harm, not just thoughts or ideas.

I'm specifically interested in how people are willing to turn a blind eye when harm is done to others.

My adoptive family chose to stay in contact and in business with my exhusband after he abused and lied to me. Their justification was exactly this - “he never did anything to us.” I know it’s only a matter of time before he screws them over - he strongly dislikes them and they still kiss his a**. But that is their decision, they are grownups and can choose their own adventures.

Anonymous wrote:I was friends for a while with someone who has zero moral compass. She is charismatic and incredibly funny but one day I realized her humor was rooted in mocking other people, and that it actually wasn't funny. Also, I didn't want someone in my life who could lie and steal with impunity. She was notorious for stealing clients from others. I considered myself immune from her predatory behavior. I'm glad I had that epiphany that she's actually an awful person and I ended the friendship and never looked back. A few years later she had her first child. I didn't say it out loud it but plenty of people in our orbit did - that child was born with severe SN and it seemed like the universe sent her a message. I haven't seen her in years.

This is what this thread is in a nutshell - bunch of people who want their belief in just world validated and hope that bad things will never happen to them.

I hate to break your bubble, but severe SN children happen to the most righteous people too. And can happen to you or your children, even if you never stole clients or laughed behind someone’s back. Speaking of that, how righteous the people in your orbit really are if they gloated about someone having a child with severe SN? Maybe universe has a thing for them too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. I distanced myself from a friend group during covid because they kept in contact with a crazy racist antivaxxer. They were willing to overlook her nasty comments and views but I could not. I don't think my life is worse off not having her/them, but I do think friends are a reflection of you.

I understand the racist part, but not wanting to be forced to get a vaccine that hasn’t been proven to work doesn’t sound evil to me. Which only proves that we could be acquaintances because we both hate racism, but would not really be close friends because we disagree on an issue that you see as evil. There would always be topics to avoid and it would naturally create distance, the interest in friendship between us would stop at we both hate racism.

If you understand the racist part, ending the friendship for any other reason doesn't matter. Take your anti vax shit elsewhere.

Thank you for putting the exclamation point on my argument. I didn’t even have to do anything for you to hate me, just have a different opinion. Why be friends with someone who does things that you believe are bad? This person thinks I shouldn’t exist for having a differing opinion on a vaccine mandate, regardless of the fact that I am a medical professional.

Who said anything about not existing? Are you always this much of a drama queen? You can't read for shit, what kind medical quack are you pretending to be on the internet?

Sorry it reads different than I meant it. I didn’t mean I should die, I was saying “Take your anti vax s&$@ elsewhere” means you don’t want me or my opinion anywhere in your world. It was poorly communicated.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. I distanced myself from a friend group during covid because they kept in contact with a crazy racist antivaxxer. They were willing to overlook her nasty comments and views but I could not. I don't think my life is worse off not having her/them, but I do think friends are a reflection of you.

I understand the racist part, but not wanting to be forced to get a vaccine that hasn’t been proven to work doesn’t sound evil to me. Which only proves that we could be acquaintances because we both hate racism, but would not really be close friends because we disagree on an issue that you see as evil. There would always be topics to avoid and it would naturally create distance, the interest in friendship between us would stop at we both hate racism.

If you understand the racist part, ending the friendship for any other reason doesn't matter. Take your anti vax shit elsewhere.

Thank you for putting the exclamation point on my argument. I didn’t even have to do anything for you to hate me, just have a different opinion. Why be friends with someone who does things that you believe are bad? This person thinks I shouldn’t exist for having a differing opinion on a vaccine mandate, regardless of the fact that I am a medical professional.

Sorry, are you saying that it's fine to be friends with a racist because we all have different views? Or are you agreeing that it's ok to ditch a friend because they started spouting racist nonsense? Or did you just come to defend antivaxers regardless of them being racist? Not sure the point of this post.

I was trying to say that when people do bad/evil deeds, the only reason to be friends with them is because their behavior is in a moral gray area for you. Many of us create distance when someone holds an opinion that we disagree with morally, why would you want to have a friend that actually does bad things?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. I distanced myself from a friend group during covid because they kept in contact with a crazy racist antivaxxer. They were willing to overlook her nasty comments and views but I could not. I don't think my life is worse off not having her/them, but I do think friends are a reflection of you.

I understand the racist part, but not wanting to be forced to get a vaccine that hasn’t been proven to work doesn’t sound evil to me. Which only proves that we could be acquaintances because we both hate racism, but would not really be close friends because we disagree on an issue that you see as evil. There would always be topics to avoid and it would naturally create distance, the interest in friendship between us would stop at we both hate racism.

If you understand the racist part, ending the friendship for any other reason doesn't matter. Take your anti vax shit elsewhere.

Thank you for putting the exclamation point on my argument. I didn’t even have to do anything for you to hate me, just have a different opinion. Why be friends with someone who does things that you believe are bad? This person thinks I shouldn’t exist for having a differing opinion on a vaccine mandate, regardless of the fact that I am a medical professional.

Sorry, are you saying that it's fine to be friends with a racist because we all have different views? Or are you agreeing that it's ok to ditch a friend because they started spouting racist nonsense? Or did you just come to defend antivaxers regardless of them being racist? Not sure the point of this post.