Anonymous
09/16/2025 13:56
Subject: Re:The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Remember Romeo and Juliet. People can think you’re dead and you’re not actually back in the day.
Very true. There must have been some emotionally-charged impetus for the explosion of Christianity. He could have woken up from a coma, been in acceptable health for a while, and died suddenly from a clot to his brain or lungs, from the strain his body had been subjected to when on the cross. The resurrection was interpreted as a miracle, and the second death as the ascension of Christ to Heaven.
If you are interested in medical mysteries, you can find an explanation.
OP here. This is a nice illustration of my point. To deny the Resurrection is to wade into conjecture; there’s not some obvious rival explanation.
You can choose to believe what you want or need to believe and there is value to religion beyond whether it’s real or not…
But much of what was thought of as miracles back in the day now have scientific explanations. The PP gave you one for what could have happened. Do we know? Nope. No cell phones those days.
Then again, we have cell phones now. Lots of ways to prove what happened. And people still choose to believe what they want to….
What’s the value of religion beyond its truth?
Community, teaching morals to kids, having something to lean on when things are uncontrollable. None of that means that Biblical stories are completely accurate. That’s not to say there isn’t truth behind them, but it was mostly people’s way of explaining what was then unexplainable.
One wonders then Who put the urge into humans to “explain[] what was then unexplainable.” Seems that humanity yearns for an ultimate cause in much the same way it seeks out other essential needs
Obviously, that Who is Zeus
Anonymous
09/16/2025 13:45
Subject: The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
See the poster at 12:16 who so eloquently put it into context.Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The motivation of Islamic hijackers and suicide bombers is to kill others who are infidels —people who will not submit to their (false) god. They see themselves as warriors at war with an enemy.Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People do not risk being thrown to lions, beheaded, sawn asunder, burned alive, or have their goods confiscated becoming penniless, driven into the wilderness for a fake miracle or for a lie.Anonymous wrote:Because people need to believe in miracles in order to dissociate from reality… but doesn’t make them real
Does that include suicide bombers and the 9/11 hijackers?
No?
Why not?
People who know that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, who know it the same as knowing that the sky is blue, will be killed rather than lie and say Jesus is not the son of God.
Once you see that God is real, you cannot unsee it, the same as you cannot deny the sky is blue.
Jesus warned in Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
So your whole position is based on the presupposition that your god is the right one and theirs is false.
Fine, but that negates your first claim that people don’t die for lies.
It is possible to be deceived, thinking you know the truth, so much so you are willing to go to war and die to kill others who you believe reject your truth.
The people in Jonestown and members of Heaven’s Gate died for what they believed to be truth. They died for lies.
But as the poster at 12:16 said, they were not on trial for their beliefs.
Anonymous
09/16/2025 12:16
Subject: The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People do not risk being thrown to lions, beheaded, sawn asunder, burned alive, or have their goods confiscated becoming penniless, driven into the wilderness for a fake miracle or for a lie.Anonymous wrote:Because people need to believe in miracles in order to dissociate from reality… but doesn’t make them real
Does that include suicide bombers and the 9/11 hijackers?
No?
Why not?
I’m not the person you’re quoting, but I actually think that the two are differently situated in a way that matters for purposes of this discussion: the early followers of Jesus were traveling to make a statement of fact (“hey, God became man over in our country a few years ago”). The 9-11 hijackers were, by contrast, had different motives (essentially, war). So while death was present in both situations, it was a different kind of death; for the early followers of Jesus, death was a penalty for what the audience regarded as unacceptable speech—kind of like getting prosecuted for perjury when you lie under oath— as opposed to death as a background risk in war. With that framing adjustment made, you have to think what it says about truthfulness if a person is willing to chance (and ultimately receive) the death penalty for in exchange for their testimony. Our legal system supposes that an awareness of high stakes for false speech leads to true testimony, and I think that’s right.
God bless you.
Anonymous
09/16/2025 12:03
Subject: The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
Anonymous wrote:The motivation of Islamic hijackers and suicide bombers is to kill others who are infidels —people who will not submit to their (false) god. They see themselves as warriors at war with an enemy.Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People do not risk being thrown to lions, beheaded, sawn asunder, burned alive, or have their goods confiscated becoming penniless, driven into the wilderness for a fake miracle or for a lie.Anonymous wrote:Because people need to believe in miracles in order to dissociate from reality… but doesn’t make them real
Does that include suicide bombers and the 9/11 hijackers?
No?
Why not?
People who know that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, who know it the same as knowing that the sky is blue, will be killed rather than lie and say Jesus is not the son of God.
Once you see that God is real, you cannot unsee it, the same as you cannot deny the sky is blue.
Jesus warned in Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
So your whole position is based on the presupposition that your god is the right one and theirs is false.
Fine, but that negates your first claim that people don’t die for lies.
Anonymous
09/16/2025 10:10
Subject: The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
The motivation of Islamic hijackers and suicide bombers is to kill others who are infidels —people who will not submit to their (false) god. They see themselves as warriors at war with an enemy.Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People do not risk being thrown to lions, beheaded, sawn asunder, burned alive, or have their goods confiscated becoming penniless, driven into the wilderness for a fake miracle or for a lie.Anonymous wrote:Because people need to believe in miracles in order to dissociate from reality… but doesn’t make them real
Does that include suicide bombers and the 9/11 hijackers?
No?
Why not?
People who know that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, who know it the same as knowing that the sky is blue, will be killed rather than lie and say Jesus is not the son of God.
Once you see that God is real, you cannot unsee it, the same as you cannot deny the sky is blue.
Jesus warned in Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Anonymous
09/16/2025 09:55
Subject: The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
I think all religions are equally valid.
Anonymous
09/16/2025 09:47
Subject: The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
Anonymous wrote:What happened to the Apostles?
James, brother of John: Beheaded by King Herod around A.D. 44.
Peter: Crucified upside down in Rome, a death he requested as he didn't feel worthy to die the same way as Jesus.
Paul: Beheaded in Rome during the persecution under Emperor Nero.
Andrew: Crucified on a diagonal cross in Greece after preaching for two days.
Thomas: Martyred in India, reportedly speared to death.
Bartholomew: Flayed alive and then beheaded in Armenia.
James the Lesser: Thrown from the temple in Jerusalem, stoned, and clubbed.
Jude (Thaddaeus): Killed with arrows or an axe in Armenia or Lebanon.
Simon the Zealot: Sawed in half while preaching in Persia, according to tradition.
Matthew: Executed with a sword in Ethiopia for condemning the king.
Philip: May have been crucified or suffered other forms of martyrdom.
https://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1-300/whatever-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles-11629558.html
People don’t die for lies.
Except for all the other martyrs of all the other religions. They die for lies, right?
Anonymous
09/16/2025 09:46
Subject: The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
Anonymous wrote:People do not risk being thrown to lions, beheaded, sawn asunder, burned alive, or have their goods confiscated becoming penniless, driven into the wilderness for a fake miracle or for a lie.Anonymous wrote:Because people need to believe in miracles in order to dissociate from reality… but doesn’t make them real
Does that include suicide bombers and the 9/11 hijackers?
No?
Why not?
Anonymous
09/16/2025 09:46
Subject: Re:The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Remember Romeo and Juliet. People can think you’re dead and you’re not actually back in the day.
Very true. There must have been some emotionally-charged impetus for the explosion of Christianity. He could have woken up from a coma, been in acceptable health for a while, and died suddenly from a clot to his brain or lungs, from the strain his body had been subjected to when on the cross. The resurrection was interpreted as a miracle, and the second death as the ascension of Christ to Heaven.
If you are interested in medical mysteries, you can find an explanation.
OP here. This is a nice illustration of my point. To deny the Resurrection is to wade into conjecture; there’s not some obvious rival explanation.
You can choose to believe what you want or need to believe and there is value to religion beyond whether it’s real or not…
But much of what was thought of as miracles back in the day now have scientific explanations. The PP gave you one for what could have happened. Do we know? Nope. No cell phones those days.
Then again, we have cell phones now. Lots of ways to prove what happened. And people still choose to believe what they want to….
What’s the value of religion beyond its truth?
Does religion even have to have any truth? If I believe my God will protect and help me and feel calmer and more able to go about my day does it matter if that's true? If my God exists for others? What others believe or not? The whole delusion/sky fairy rant theme for atheism seems to hinge on organized religion. I haven't been in a church since 6th grade.
Atheism is not just about religion. It’s about not believing in a supreme being who lets you live forever.
Ok but the paragraph you responded to didn't have any of that. Not every believer has the same bag of ideas.
Eternal life. Well I don't believe that. I think we will be together in spirit and if it's a nanosecond of awareness and that's all it will be, that is all we will know...our forever.
Even without a supreme being, the last thought a nonbeliever has is their eternity. Because there's nada mas.
Anonymous
09/16/2025 03:16
Subject: The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
Anonymous wrote:I’m Christian but I still recognize that nothing revitalizes a dying movement as much as a martyr. It doesn’t prove anything one way or another except that it was a story that found resonance with a lot of people at that time. The fact that the Roman Empire was in a slow collapse during that time period also probably contributed to a general political/social instability that made people want to find a new way of thinking about their world and group membership. Power voids are great for messianic movements, throughout history.
the Roman Empire was just getting started at that time- the first century they were still in the rule of Augustus,tiberius and other various descendants of the family of Julius Caesar. just a small historical correction. It's probable that the year 1 in the BC/AD timeline actually is rooted in the destruction of the roman republic and the beginning if the empire. the Pax Romana started in 31 bc
Anonymous
09/16/2025 03:02
Subject: Re:The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
Anonymous wrote:Remember Romeo and Juliet. People can think you’re dead and you’re not actually back in the day.
yup- that is a better explanation, especially since Jesus was on the cross for 3, excruciating, hours but it takes 3 days for someone to die in that position and the Romans really wanted this headache to go away (they thought of jews the way we think of Muslims, crazy religious nut jobs). so would be amenable to bribery.
one theory is that he left Israel and went looking for the lost tribes. there is a town in what is now Pakistan that claims that Mary is buried there. It's a pretty accepted "fact' which is really weird.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_years_of_Jesus
Anonymous
09/16/2025 02:53
Subject: The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
What happened to the Apostles?
James, brother of John: Beheaded by King Herod around A.D. 44.
Peter: Crucified upside down in Rome, a death he requested as he didn't feel worthy to die the same way as Jesus.
Paul: Beheaded in Rome during the persecution under Emperor Nero.
Andrew: Crucified on a diagonal cross in Greece after preaching for two days.
Thomas: Martyred in India, reportedly speared to death.
Bartholomew: Flayed alive and then beheaded in Armenia.
James the Lesser: Thrown from the temple in Jerusalem, stoned, and clubbed.
Jude (Thaddaeus): Killed with arrows or an axe in Armenia or Lebanon.
Simon the Zealot: Sawed in half while preaching in Persia, according to tradition.
Matthew: Executed with a sword in Ethiopia for condemning the king.
Philip: May have been crucified or suffered other forms of martyrdom.
https://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1-300/whatever-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles-11629558.html
People don’t die for lies.
James, brother of John: Beheaded by King Herod around A.D. 44.
Peter: Crucified upside down in Rome, a death he requested as he didn't feel worthy to die the same way as Jesus.
Paul: Beheaded in Rome during the persecution under Emperor Nero.
Andrew: Crucified on a diagonal cross in Greece after preaching for two days.
Thomas: Martyred in India, reportedly speared to death.
Bartholomew: Flayed alive and then beheaded in Armenia.
James the Lesser: Thrown from the temple in Jerusalem, stoned, and clubbed.
Jude (Thaddaeus): Killed with arrows or an axe in Armenia or Lebanon.
Simon the Zealot: Sawed in half while preaching in Persia, according to tradition.
Matthew: Executed with a sword in Ethiopia for condemning the king.
Philip: May have been crucified or suffered other forms of martyrdom.
https://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1-300/whatever-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles-11629558.html
People don’t die for lies.
Anonymous
09/16/2025 01:06
Subject: Re:The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Remember Romeo and Juliet. People can think you’re dead and you’re not actually back in the day.
Very true. There must have been some emotionally-charged impetus for the explosion of Christianity. He could have woken up from a coma, been in acceptable health for a while, and died suddenly from a clot to his brain or lungs, from the strain his body had been subjected to when on the cross. The resurrection was interpreted as a miracle, and the second death as the ascension of Christ to Heaven.
If you are interested in medical mysteries, you can find an explanation.
OP here. This is a nice illustration of my point. To deny the Resurrection is to wade into conjecture; there’s not some obvious rival explanation.
You can choose to believe what you want or need to believe and there is value to religion beyond whether it’s real or not…
But much of what was thought of as miracles back in the day now have scientific explanations. The PP gave you one for what could have happened. Do we know? Nope. No cell phones those days.
Then again, we have cell phones now. Lots of ways to prove what happened. And people still choose to believe what they want to….
What’s the value of religion beyond its truth?
Does religion even have to have any truth? If I believe my God will protect and help me and feel calmer and more able to go about my day does it matter if that's true? If my God exists for others? What others believe or not? The whole delusion/sky fairy rant theme for atheism seems to hinge on organized religion. I haven't been in a church since 6th grade.
Atheism is not just about religion. It’s about not believing in a supreme being who lets you live forever.
Ok but the paragraph you responded to didn't have any of that. Not every believer has the same bag of ideas.
No, but eternal life is a pretty big deal.
Anonymous
09/15/2025 19:45
Subject: Re:The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Remember Romeo and Juliet. People can think you’re dead and you’re not actually back in the day.
Very true. There must have been some emotionally-charged impetus for the explosion of Christianity. He could have woken up from a coma, been in acceptable health for a while, and died suddenly from a clot to his brain or lungs, from the strain his body had been subjected to when on the cross. The resurrection was interpreted as a miracle, and the second death as the ascension of Christ to Heaven.
If you are interested in medical mysteries, you can find an explanation.
OP here. This is a nice illustration of my point. To deny the Resurrection is to wade into conjecture; there’s not some obvious rival explanation.
You can choose to believe what you want or need to believe and there is value to religion beyond whether it’s real or not…
But much of what was thought of as miracles back in the day now have scientific explanations. The PP gave you one for what could have happened. Do we know? Nope. No cell phones those days.
Then again, we have cell phones now. Lots of ways to prove what happened. And people still choose to believe what they want to….
What’s the value of religion beyond its truth?
Does religion even have to have any truth? If I believe my God will protect and help me and feel calmer and more able to go about my day does it matter if that's true? If my God exists for others? What others believe or not? The whole delusion/sky fairy rant theme for atheism seems to hinge on organized religion. I haven't been in a church since 6th grade.
Atheism is not just about religion. It’s about not believing in a supreme being who lets you live forever.
Ok but the paragraph you responded to didn't have any of that. Not every believer has the same bag of ideas.
Anonymous
09/15/2025 19:09
Subject: Re:The Resurrection of Jesus Is Probably Real
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Remember Romeo and Juliet. People can think you’re dead and you’re not actually back in the day.
Very true. There must have been some emotionally-charged impetus for the explosion of Christianity. He could have woken up from a coma, been in acceptable health for a while, and died suddenly from a clot to his brain or lungs, from the strain his body had been subjected to when on the cross. The resurrection was interpreted as a miracle, and the second death as the ascension of Christ to Heaven.
If you are interested in medical mysteries, you can find an explanation.
OP here. This is a nice illustration of my point. To deny the Resurrection is to wade into conjecture; there’s not some obvious rival explanation.
You can choose to believe what you want or need to believe and there is value to religion beyond whether it’s real or not…
But much of what was thought of as miracles back in the day now have scientific explanations. The PP gave you one for what could have happened. Do we know? Nope. No cell phones those days.
Then again, we have cell phones now. Lots of ways to prove what happened. And people still choose to believe what they want to….
What’s the value of religion beyond its truth?
Community, teaching morals to kids, having something to lean on when things are uncontrollable. None of that means that Biblical stories are completely accurate. That’s not to say there isn’t truth behind them, but it was mostly people’s way of explaining what was then unexplainable.
One wonders then Who put the urge into humans to “explain[] what was then unexplainable.” Seems that humanity yearns for an ultimate cause in much the same way it seeks out other essential needs