Anonymous wrote:I would ordinarily oppose anything written by AEI affiliates as a matter of principle, but I have to admit that this article describes the situation almost perfectly: https://thedispatch.com/p/teachers-unions-have-kept-schools

same here. I’m going to exit this pandemic as much more libertarian than I ever thought possible.

I would ordinarily oppose anything written by AEI affiliates as a matter of principle, but I have to admit that this article describes the situation almost perfectly: https://thedispatch.com/p/teachers-unions-have-kept-schools

DL is not an acceptable alternative to in-person for children PK-2nd Grade. Even if you just focus on academics (reading, writing, math), the average child in these grades will not meet basic grade-level standards through DL only.

Children with disruptive home lives, mental health issues, IEPs, and other concerns will be at a particular disadvantage.

Also, in order to make DL even minimally effective for this age group, students need a parent to be with them 100% of the time. Maybe 1st and 2nd graders can do some of it on their own, but it works best with an adult nearby who can make sure they have what they need, troubleshoot tech issues, and reinforce concepts throughout the rest of the day. Children this age simply are not self-sufficient academically, and "education" cannot be reduced to a few hours of interaction with a teacher online. Even with parental supervision, individual children will struggle based on their particular learning needs, their parents' teaching skills, as well as behavioral and mental health factors.

So no, DCPS is not providing an education to these children. They are, at best, providing a curriculum+ -- here is what your child is supposed to be learning, and here are some strategies for teaching this content to your child. That's not education, it is not even close to what is guaranteed by public education. Maybe if you are a middle school math teacher, you are providing an education. But if you teach early grades, everyone involved knows that this is not working.

One of the PK teachers I know sent her own 4 year old to a private PK because that's how ineffective DL was for him. She teaches PK for a living, and she could not in good conscious let her child suffer through DL at that age. Think about that for a minute.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

DP. The WTU rep is back! WTU rep, you are misrepresenting the facts. This isn't a matter of DL not being "the education parents want". This is a matter of DL not being effective as education. Sure, kids can still learn if parents step up and make sure your virtual teaching results in learning, but for most kids, "virtual learning" isn't happening to an acceptable degree. How come nobody in Europe thinks it's selfish of parents to want kids in school? It's because there is a broad consensus of experts who argue that kids NEED to be in school in order to learn effectively. In Germany, for instance, it was initially the national association of public school parents that was most skeptical about kids returning full-time, (irrationally) fearing for their health. It was the education professionals who said they must return to ensure public schools' mission of effectively educating everybody.

I keep trying to report the poster you responded to. Here we are having a productive discussion, as has been the case in many threads, and this person chimes in with "what are you willing to do?" This discussion started out with compelling point, which is that educators and parents agree that in person learning is preferred over DL. No educator will tell you otherwise.

You "keep trying to report" posts that don't agree with your little self-created echo chamber. They are not being removed because differing opinions have every bit as much value as yours, whether you like them or not or agree with them or not.

Not a teacher and SURE as hell not a "WTU rep" (LOL), but a parent who's sick to death of repetitive selfish whiners

It says a lot about you that you try to smear this very reasonable, fact-based, and interesting discussion between those PPs, which is reflective of the discussion actual education and public health experts around the world are having, as "repetitive selfish whining". If anything is repetitive and selfish and whining, it's the posts that regurgitate the WTU position, although I do agree there is no reason to report them. Let them continue to expose the weakness and insularity of their argument.

Every expert, whether an expert in education or public health, believe that in person delivery of education is preferable over DL. Every single one. In fact, every education expert also agrees that there is learning loss as a result of school transition to and continued delivery of education by DL. Every district in the DMV is talking about that learning loss and how to address it. Are each of these experts selfish? No. These are undisputed facts.

The debate is about what degree of risk is acceptable in order to provide education in its best setting. Reasonable minds can differ about how to quantify and weigh the potential risks of returning versus providing an inferior educational model as a result of extended school closures. With the numbers where they are now, there is a strong argument that the risks are too great. However, I have seen very few public health experts express concern about the risk of transmission of COVID in a school setting. Parents and teachers aren't public health experts. However, those same experts also believe that, from a public health perspective, there are other ways to mitigate risks within a community that would keep community spread at acceptable levels for returning children to school buildings.

Remember, the original question on the table whether there would come a point when people who have expressed support for teachers continuing to teach through DL would change their mind. In the continuum of weighing risks of in person learning versus harms caused by continued DL, it is neither selfish nor unreasonable to decide that at some point the harm to children outweighs the risk.

This is completely accurate.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

DP. The WTU rep is back! WTU rep, you are misrepresenting the facts. This isn't a matter of DL not being "the education parents want". This is a matter of DL not being effective as education. Sure, kids can still learn if parents step up and make sure your virtual teaching results in learning, but for most kids, "virtual learning" isn't happening to an acceptable degree. How come nobody in Europe thinks it's selfish of parents to want kids in school? It's because there is a broad consensus of experts who argue that kids NEED to be in school in order to learn effectively. In Germany, for instance, it was initially the national association of public school parents that was most skeptical about kids returning full-time, (irrationally) fearing for their health. It was the education professionals who said they must return to ensure public schools' mission of effectively educating everybody.

I keep trying to report the poster you responded to. Here we are having a productive discussion, as has been the case in many threads, and this person chimes in with "what are you willing to do?" This discussion started out with compelling point, which is that educators and parents agree that in person learning is preferred over DL. No educator will tell you otherwise.

You "keep trying to report" posts that don't agree with your little self-created echo chamber. They are not being removed because differing opinions have every bit as much value as yours, whether you like them or not or agree with them or not.

Not a teacher and SURE as hell not a "WTU rep" (LOL), but a parent who's sick to death of repetitive selfish whiners

DP. If it's an echo chamber, it's not a little one but a very large one. Any expert in education or public health outside the US would agree that DL is unacceptably inferior, and that schools should be the last thing to close and the first to open. Nobody outside the US calls anyone selfish for stating this fact. But of course I know that it is precisely the discussion of the international perspective that bothers the PP for whatever reason.

Oh, inside the US, all of the experts would agree with your statements too. Individual teachers are not experts.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet Jill Biden is very pro teacher because she actually knows what they do unlike you useless fools.

None of us are anti-teacher. Quite to the contrary. We are very pro-teacher. We want them to teach where they teach best and that is in the classroom. What we are against is a public sector union engaging in absurd posturing that exploits and aggravates unfounded fears during an unprecedented global crisis in order to extract ridiculous concessions for its adult members while denying tens of thousands of children - many of which fell desperately below learning standards before this crisis - the education enjoyed by their peers in almost all of the rest of the country and undermining, for years to come, a historically-underperforming public school district that was, slowly but surely, on its way up. No one who cares about public education or children endorses what you are doing. Useless fools yourself.

Very well said.

Whoa, Kyleigh! Stop with the false claims. You are pro-teacher and want them to teach where they teach best? Who do you think you are?! Enough already.
There is a global pandemic. Teachers are people with the same rights as you. It’s not ideal, but stop the strop. To see why no one is listening to you check Fox out (no more tolerance for alternative facts): https://www.newsweek.com/fox-news-cuts-away-trumps-press-secretary-says-it-cant-air-false-claims-good-conscience-1546155

Is there a coherent argument in there somewhere? If so, it would appear to be that those of us who appreciate scientific evidence on the risks of in-person learning (I'll spare you the research - they are very low) and the adverse impacts of DL on children's learning are like "Kyleigh" (sic)? Kindly explain that as it flies straight over my head.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

DP. The WTU rep is back! WTU rep, you are misrepresenting the facts. This isn't a matter of DL not being "the education parents want". This is a matter of DL not being effective as education. Sure, kids can still learn if parents step up and make sure your virtual teaching results in learning, but for most kids, "virtual learning" isn't happening to an acceptable degree. How come nobody in Europe thinks it's selfish of parents to want kids in school? It's because there is a broad consensus of experts who argue that kids NEED to be in school in order to learn effectively. In Germany, for instance, it was initially the national association of public school parents that was most skeptical about kids returning full-time, (irrationally) fearing for their health. It was the education professionals who said they must return to ensure public schools' mission of effectively educating everybody.

I keep trying to report the poster you responded to. Here we are having a productive discussion, as has been the case in many threads, and this person chimes in with "what are you willing to do?" This discussion started out with compelling point, which is that educators and parents agree that in person learning is preferred over DL. No educator will tell you otherwise.

You "keep trying to report" posts that don't agree with your little self-created echo chamber. They are not being removed because differing opinions have every bit as much value as yours, whether you like them or not or agree with them or not.

Not a teacher and SURE as hell not a "WTU rep" (LOL), but a parent who's sick to death of repetitive selfish whiners

DP. If it's an echo chamber, it's not a little one but a very large one. Any expert in education or public health outside the US would agree that DL is unacceptably inferior, and that schools should be the last thing to close and the first to open. Nobody outside the US calls anyone selfish for stating this fact. But of course I know that it is precisely the discussion of the international perspective that bothers the PP for whatever reason.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

DP. The WTU rep is back! WTU rep, you are misrepresenting the facts. This isn't a matter of DL not being "the education parents want". This is a matter of DL not being effective as education. Sure, kids can still learn if parents step up and make sure your virtual teaching results in learning, but for most kids, "virtual learning" isn't happening to an acceptable degree. How come nobody in Europe thinks it's selfish of parents to want kids in school? It's because there is a broad consensus of experts who argue that kids NEED to be in school in order to learn effectively. In Germany, for instance, it was initially the national association of public school parents that was most skeptical about kids returning full-time, (irrationally) fearing for their health. It was the education professionals who said they must return to ensure public schools' mission of effectively educating everybody.

I keep trying to report the poster you responded to. Here we are having a productive discussion, as has been the case in many threads, and this person chimes in with "what are you willing to do?" This discussion started out with compelling point, which is that educators and parents agree that in person learning is preferred over DL. No educator will tell you otherwise.

You "keep trying to report" posts that don't agree with your little self-created echo chamber. They are not being removed because differing opinions have every bit as much value as yours, whether you like them or not or agree with them or not.

Not a teacher and SURE as hell not a "WTU rep" (LOL), but a parent who's sick to death of repetitive selfish whiners

Do you also blame parents for the achievement gap and believe that there is no need to adjust our delivery of education services to children who are disadvantaged in order to help them meet standards? If education is ultimately the function of parents, then there is no need to be concerned about populations who are struggling, right?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

DP. The WTU rep is back! WTU rep, you are misrepresenting the facts. This isn't a matter of DL not being "the education parents want". This is a matter of DL not being effective as education. Sure, kids can still learn if parents step up and make sure your virtual teaching results in learning, but for most kids, "virtual learning" isn't happening to an acceptable degree. How come nobody in Europe thinks it's selfish of parents to want kids in school? It's because there is a broad consensus of experts who argue that kids NEED to be in school in order to learn effectively. In Germany, for instance, it was initially the national association of public school parents that was most skeptical about kids returning full-time, (irrationally) fearing for their health. It was the education professionals who said they must return to ensure public schools' mission of effectively educating everybody.

I keep trying to report the poster you responded to. Here we are having a productive discussion, as has been the case in many threads, and this person chimes in with "what are you willing to do?" This discussion started out with compelling point, which is that educators and parents agree that in person learning is preferred over DL. No educator will tell you otherwise.

You "keep trying to report" posts that don't agree with your little self-created echo chamber. They are not being removed because differing opinions have every bit as much value as yours, whether you like them or not or agree with them or not.

Not a teacher and SURE as hell not a "WTU rep" (LOL), but a parent who's sick to death of repetitive selfish whiners

It says a lot about you that you try to smear this very reasonable, fact-based, and interesting discussion between those PPs, which is reflective of the discussion actual education and public health experts around the world are having, as "repetitive selfish whining". If anything is repetitive and selfish and whining, it's the posts that regurgitate the WTU position, although I do agree there is no reason to report them. Let them continue to expose the weakness and insularity of their argument.

Every expert, whether an expert in education or public health, believe that in person delivery of education is preferable over DL. Every single one. In fact, every education expert also agrees that there is learning loss as a result of school transition to and continued delivery of education by DL. Every district in the DMV is talking about that learning loss and how to address it. Are each of these experts selfish? No. These are undisputed facts.

The debate is about what degree of risk is acceptable in order to provide education in its best setting. Reasonable minds can differ about how to quantify and weigh the potential risks of returning versus providing an inferior educational model as a result of extended school closures. With the numbers where they are now, there is a strong argument that the risks are too great. However, I have seen very few public health experts express concern about the risk of transmission of COVID in a school setting. Parents and teachers aren't public health experts. However, those same experts also believe that, from a public health perspective, there are other ways to mitigate risks within a community that would keep community spread at acceptable levels for returning children to school buildings.

Remember, the original question on the table whether there would come a point when people who have expressed support for teachers continuing to teach through DL would change their mind. In the continuum of weighing risks of in person learning versus harms caused by continued DL, it is neither selfish nor unreasonable to decide that at some point the harm to children outweighs the risk.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

DP. The WTU rep is back! WTU rep, you are misrepresenting the facts. This isn't a matter of DL not being "the education parents want". This is a matter of DL not being effective as education. Sure, kids can still learn if parents step up and make sure your virtual teaching results in learning, but for most kids, "virtual learning" isn't happening to an acceptable degree. How come nobody in Europe thinks it's selfish of parents to want kids in school? It's because there is a broad consensus of experts who argue that kids NEED to be in school in order to learn effectively. In Germany, for instance, it was initially the national association of public school parents that was most skeptical about kids returning full-time, (irrationally) fearing for their health. It was the education professionals who said they must return to ensure public schools' mission of effectively educating everybody.

I keep trying to report the poster you responded to. Here we are having a productive discussion, as has been the case in many threads, and this person chimes in with "what are you willing to do?" This discussion started out with compelling point, which is that educators and parents agree that in person learning is preferred over DL. No educator will tell you otherwise.

You "keep trying to report" posts that don't agree with your little self-created echo chamber. They are not being removed because differing opinions have every bit as much value as yours, whether you like them or not or agree with them or not.

Not a teacher and SURE as hell not a "WTU rep" (LOL), but a parent who's sick to death of repetitive selfish whiners

It says a lot about you that you try to smear this very reasonable, fact-based, and interesting discussion between those PPs, which is reflective of the discussion actual education and public health experts around the world are having, as "repetitive selfish whining". If anything is repetitive and selfish and whining, it's the posts that regurgitate the WTU position, although I do agree there is no reason to report them. Let them continue to expose the weakness and insularity of their argument.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet Jill Biden is very pro teacher because she actually knows what they do unlike you useless fools.

None of us are anti-teacher. Quite to the contrary. We are very pro-teacher. We want them to teach where they teach best and that is in the classroom. What we are against is a public sector union engaging in absurd posturing that exploits and aggravates unfounded fears during an unprecedented global crisis in order to extract ridiculous concessions for its adult members while denying tens of thousands of children - many of which fell desperately below learning standards before this crisis - the education enjoyed by their peers in almost all of the rest of the country and undermining, for years to come, a historically-underperforming public school district that was, slowly but surely, on its way up. No one who cares about public education or children endorses what you are doing. Useless fools yourself.

Very well said.

Whoa, Kyleigh! Stop with the false claims. You are pro-teacher and want them to teach where they teach best? Who do you think you are?! Enough already.
There is a global pandemic. Teachers are people with the same rights as you. It’s not ideal, but stop the strop. To see why no one is listening to you check Fox out (no more tolerance for alternative facts): https://www.newsweek.com/fox-news-cuts-away-trumps-press-secretary-says-it-cant-air-false-claims-good-conscience-1546155

If our teachers get covid, who will teach?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

DP. The WTU rep is back! WTU rep, you are misrepresenting the facts. This isn't a matter of DL not being "the education parents want". This is a matter of DL not being effective as education. Sure, kids can still learn if parents step up and make sure your virtual teaching results in learning, but for most kids, "virtual learning" isn't happening to an acceptable degree. How come nobody in Europe thinks it's selfish of parents to want kids in school? It's because there is a broad consensus of experts who argue that kids NEED to be in school in order to learn effectively. In Germany, for instance, it was initially the national association of public school parents that was most skeptical about kids returning full-time, (irrationally) fearing for their health. It was the education professionals who said they must return to ensure public schools' mission of effectively educating everybody.

I keep trying to report the poster you responded to. Here we are having a productive discussion, as has been the case in many threads, and this person chimes in with "what are you willing to do?" This discussion started out with compelling point, which is that educators and parents agree that in person learning is preferred over DL. No educator will tell you otherwise.

You "keep trying to report" posts that don't agree with your little self-created echo chamber. They are not being removed because differing opinions have every bit as much value as yours, whether you like them or not or agree with them or not.

Not a teacher and SURE as hell not a "WTU rep" (LOL), but a parent who's sick to death of repetitive selfish whiners

Well, answer the question? What are you willing to do to get schools back open? In Europe, multiple countries are under lockdown. If you aren't willing to make sacrifices and get covid under control, you need to accept education is no DL.

Not everyone agrees that in person right now is preferred over DL. I prefer DL. I wish there was more to DL as 2 hours per class a week isn't enough but given we have 8 classes it realistically is the best they can do.

Anonymous wrote:

DP. The WTU rep is back! WTU rep, you are misrepresenting the facts. This isn't a matter of DL not being "the education parents want". This is a matter of DL not being effective as education. Sure, kids can still learn if parents step up and make sure your virtual teaching results in learning, but for most kids, "virtual learning" isn't happening to an acceptable degree. How come nobody in Europe thinks it's selfish of parents to want kids in school? It's because there is a broad consensus of experts who argue that kids NEED to be in school in order to learn effectively. In Germany, for instance, it was initially the national association of public school parents that was most skeptical about kids returning full-time, (irrationally) fearing for their health. It was the education professionals who said they must return to ensure public schools' mission of effectively educating everybody.

I keep trying to report the poster you responded to. Here we are having a productive discussion, as has been the case in many threads, and this person chimes in with "what are you willing to do?" This discussion started out with compelling point, which is that educators and parents agree that in person learning is preferred over DL. No educator will tell you otherwise.

You "keep trying to report" posts that don't agree with your little self-created echo chamber. They are not being removed because differing opinions have every bit as much value as yours, whether you like them or not or agree with them or not.

Not a teacher and SURE as hell not a "WTU rep" (LOL), but a parent who's sick to death of repetitive selfish whiners

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And the constant pretending that school's only role is to provide a method for a teacher to broadcast information to students as though teaching and not learning was the more important activity. That it's childrens' and parents' fault if the kids aren't effectively learning in this situation. That schools have no other social roles, including community health, civic education, socialized daycare, socialization, community building and integration, etc.

No. Schools are simply a method for teachers to teach. And if kids aren't learning, well, it doesn't matter if the teachers say they're working hard enough.

This is well-put. If we all start this discussion in agreement that in-person learning works best for all students, then we should end the discussion in agreement that long-term DL does not work for all students. we agree. If we want to decide that the safety of adults in school buildings is more important than educating children due to the circumstances of the pandemic, then we should be honest about it. We are sorry that we are providing a sub-par educational experience for your children, but we think the risk of getting sick outweighs any and all concerns about education. That way, there is nothing to argue about. It is what it is.

Well, I would say we can still argue about the ethical merits of prioritizing the interests of adults over those of children, and more broadly, the interests of the elderly over the young. It is an important issue that should be at the core of our larger discussion about how to live with this virus.

Absolutely, there is room for disagreement in how we prioritize interests, without being dismissive of the any concerns about risks, whether they are health risks or risk to the education or development of children. You and I can have a meaningful discussion about the ethics of how these interests are prioritized Absolutely. I just wish more people would use undisputed facts to frame the analysis.

PS - I realize that the childcare person is a troll.

The problem is that the question how significant the risk to the non-elderly teacher without comorbidities actually is isn't a matter of undisputed facts. To the contrary, there is a lot of dispute about that. I think we can all agree that the risk to teachers is not zero, but evidently people cannot agree how big it actually is. So it's not quite as easy to boil it down to the questions of interests and ethics outlined above.

I guess that's true. However, not every teacher will get COVID and even those who get COVID may not get sick. Every student is impacted in some way by not going to school. At least that's one way of looking at it.

I completely agree with you and believe that a) the data out of Europe shows that teachers are not at a particularly high risk to get infected, and b) if they do get infected and fall into the non-elderly, non-comorbid category, their risk of severe disease is very low. I was just pointing out that people cannot agree on this. Even though I personally think those are facts, they are not undisputed, and that is at the core of our calamity. The level of Covid hysteria is very high and has been stoked for months in response to Trump's irresponsible downplaying of it, and in an effort to get the general population to comply with measures that are important to protect the vulnerable. So while to me, the ethical calculation is clear - the risk of damage to millions of kids should outweigh the risk to teachers, many teachers believe that they are all truly risking their lives by stepping into a classroom, even if there is no evidence that this is the case (unless you are unable to put risks in perspective, since the risk is non-zero as it is in most of life).

Emotion gets in the way of reasonable discussion. In addition, when we are talking about continuing with DL versus in person return, one side is expressing their actual experience while the other is speculating about potential risks. I have heard from so many parents that their formerly strong students are failing their DL classes, or have fallen into a state of depression, or fight with them every day about staying engaged online. And the other side is worried about what happens if a student sneezes while eating lunch and then touches touches something that the teacher touches who then touches his or her face (even though that shouldn't happen with masks and handwashing) who then gets COVID and then maybe gets sick and then dies. There are so many "what ifs" that teachers want addressed and it is impossible to do so. That's why decision makers should either say that no risk is acceptable or start actively refusing to acknowledge concerns that are not reasonable.

I originally wanted to err on the side of safety, but the longer this drags on, the harm to students continues with little concession by teachers. At some point, I think the actual harm to children should outweigh fear and hypothetical risk. However, this is a pandemic. It is ok to be wrong. There are no perfect choices, because everyone is hurt in some way. More than anything, I wish we could all be more honest about how we are assessing risk.

Teachers don't make the decisions but their health and safety is important as it is ours. You can find people on both sides but if things aren't working in your home, you need to support your kids and figure it out. Many parents are very laid back and let the kids handle things and many of those kids aren't as independent as parents believe they are.

I control what goes on in my home, that's true. However, those in charge of educating children are responsible for assessing the approach that promotes the greater good. Those people have as much, if not more, responsibility to the students they serve than they do to adult staff members. They decide how to prioritize, but it is there decisions that are being discuss here, not what goes on in any individual home.

They are providing an education. The issue is its not the education you want. You are willing to risk others safety without any concern for anyone else but yourself. That is really selfish and you clearly need someone to prioritize priorities and help you parent as you aren't able to make and teach your kids responsible choices at this point.

Schools are required to provide an education. That is what they are tasked with. Preforming your duties as a parent - child care, socialization, exercise, extra stuff, mental health, etc are your responsibilities as a parent. And, your responsibility is to make sure your kids attend their classes, participate and do the school work regardless of DL or in person.

+1,000

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet Jill Biden is very pro teacher because she actually knows what they do unlike you useless fools.

None of us are anti-teacher. Quite to the contrary. We are very pro-teacher. We want them to teach where they teach best and that is in the classroom. What we are against is a public sector union engaging in absurd posturing that exploits and aggravates unfounded fears during an unprecedented global crisis in order to extract ridiculous concessions for its adult members while denying tens of thousands of children - many of which fell desperately below learning standards before this crisis - the education enjoyed by their peers in almost all of the rest of the country and undermining, for years to come, a historically-underperforming public school district that was, slowly but surely, on its way up. No one who cares about public education or children endorses what you are doing. Useless fools yourself.

Very well said.

Whoa, Kyleigh! Stop with the false claims. You are pro-teacher and want them to teach where they teach best? Who do you think you are?! Enough already.
There is a global pandemic. Teachers are people with the same rights as you. It’s not ideal, but stop the strop. To see why no one is listening to you check Fox out (no more tolerance for alternative facts): https://www.newsweek.com/fox-news-cuts-away-trumps-press-secretary-says-it-cant-air-false-claims-good-conscience-1546155