Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a 5th grader and a 7th grader, both in Algebra I Honors in FCPS. The 7th grader is a normal, smart kid who is similar to all of the other smart kids in FCPS. The 5th grader is way beyond that and is bored in the Algebra class. Kids who are more than one year by FCPS are pretty rare, since FCPS doesn't like skipping kids.

That’s not saying much.

Yes. If FCPS is accepting the top 25 percent of a general population. Less than 10 percent of those kids accepted are even actually gifted (top 2 percent) statistically speaking. So maybe 9 kids out of every 100 aap kids. Sometimes will do stand out.

That's the point, though. People have been arguing about whether kids need to sit in a classroom every day to learn Algebra I Honors, and whether a class like AoPS could cover all of the same material. The normal, smart kids, who are the vast majority of AAP kids, probably need to be in that classroom every day taking FCPS Algebra. AoPS would move too quickly, not give enough repetition, and make too many intuitive leaps for the regular bright kids. It still might be valuable supplementation, but couldn't stand alone for these kids.

The small fraction of kids who are at the top of AAP would be fine with just the AoPS class. FCPS will still make those kids sit in a classroom for FCPS Algebra, but it won't benefit the kid in any way. It's just another bureaucratic hoop that the kids will need to jump through. I bet the AoPS teacher posting here can tell the difference between the 4th, 5th, and 6th graders in Algebra who are highly gifted and will always be far ahead of the FCPS curriculum vs. the ones who just have pushy parents and are only ahead from all of the hothousing.

our middle school does block scheduling. Math is every other day. It is 1.5 hours and none of that time is for homework or downtime. It’s 1.5 hours of instruction (or testing, if applicable) on that day.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are drinking the koolaid. Some tricks may or may not be covered in a high school Algebra I class. But more is covered in the school class. It’s a class that meets every day for a year. Aops meets once a week.

It’s a great program. It’s the best program that is readily available if you ask me. But nothing compares to a real high school class. Your experience may differ. like with everything you get what you put into it.

DP, but let's do the math. In FCPS middle schools with block scheduling, Algebra I honors meets every other day for 1.5 hours. In that class, perhaps 1 hour is used as instructional time and the other half hour is used for kids to get an early start on homework. So, there are approximately 2.5 hours of instructional time in the schedule. This isn't accounting for teacher work days, holidays, and any other disruptions in the schedule. The average weekly instructional time would be less than 2.5 hours due to the holidays and such.

AoPS classes have 1 hour and 45 minutes of in-class instruction per week. Generally, holidays aren't off, so they're doing this every week. It really isn't much less than an in-person class. Also, AoPS classes have fewer students than FCPS ones, so the kids get more individual attention and are more able to ask questions of the teacher.

Both AoPS and FCPS honors algebra have similar weekly homework loads. There isn't the huge gulf between the two.

This is incorrect. Even with block sceduling, math still meets every day.

And if you really think that AOPS is faithfully replicating a high school honors math class, why would you send your kid to school duplicatively instead of homeschool them? Even in college, as an engineering major, I only took one math class at a time. Poor kids.

As an engineer I'm surprised at the number of assumptions you are making here. AoPS is an enrichment program and is taught/implemented in very different fashion to algebra class in school (and aimed at motivated and high performing kids, not the exact same audience that takes algebra in school). Is there something wrong with going beyond school in doing enrichment activities outside of school? Also I also don't understand your "poor kids" comment here; is this your personal projection, or do you just advocate for having a low bar as to what kids can handle? Most are very excited to get to learn learn outside of school (not just math, but anything they are interested in) and much more capable than you seem to think. I'm also very surprised that you don't seem to believe that math is a central component of engineering. I majored in engineering and I had lots of math in each one of my engineering classes, (at least 2 to 3 classes each semester). Some engineering classes were almost completely math.

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been at least one poster claiming that a child who is able to take and pass Algebra I in 5th grade is rare or an outlier.

Aops is hugely popular. Loads of 5th graders taking algebra in 5th grade. If you talk to homeschooling circles (where aops is used as a curriculum by itself) it’s by no means weird for above average kids to take algebra I in 5th.

Also there are whole countries where algebra is taught in 5th grade, right? This is a huge argument made on this forum.

So while it’s advanced for a student to study this on the side I don’t think it’s really a sign of needing radical acceleration. It’s merely a sign that the student is receiving outside tutoring.

Having worked with the aops curriculum I don’t think it stands as a complete substitution for an honors Algebra I course that is taught at the high school level. It’s different. The concepts are introduced through self discovery which can mean a student learns at a deeper level. But not always. And I don’t think it is as rigorous. There is far less drilling and practice. Which isn’t needed if the student gets it the first time. But on the flip side a student can easily skip over problem sections and there isn’t much review.

Math competitions in elementary school are purely extra curricular. Doing well on the AMC 8 is only a sign that the student does well on that competition because they are accelerated or because they have studied the test. Not until
The AMC 12 is it really meaningful of anything more.

You see, a child who can fully understand Algebra I at 10 but have trouble with higher level and more abstract problems at 18. There’s no predicting this.

A kid who takes the aops curriculum is not fully understanding Algebra 1 honors level math. They may understand concepts or pockets of material but not the breadth of material for the whole course.

I have to highly disagree with this statement. The AoPS curriculum and problems are deeper than what is found in school algebra 1 classes. Additionally, kids are exposed to many other special topics that would be highly unlikely to be found in school (e.g Vietas formulas, Simon's favorite factoring trick, self similarity, as well as a separate in depth unit on counting and combinatorics). I don't believe any of these topics are seen in school.

You are drinking the koolaid. Some tricks may or may not be covered in a high school Algebra I class. But more is covered in the school class. It’s a class that meets every day for a year. Aops meets once a week.

It’s a great program. It’s the best program that is readily available if you ask me. But nothing compares to a real high school class. Your experience may differ. like with everything you get what you put into it.

It's silly to argue that just because kids spend more time in math class at school than they do at AoPS, they end up covering more as a result. First of all, AoPS pacing moves much more quickly than in school. (It has to, since we only have about 60 hours of class time with kids during the year; 1hr 45min per week for 36 weeks). Second of all, the kids that come to AoPS don't go there because they need help with their regular math class. They go because they're ahead in their math class and want to go beyond and can handle the pace and rigor of the classes. The expectations are much higher. For example we expect them to do assigned reading in their textbook ahead of class, if they don't do it they're less likely to be able to keep up during class. We expect them to spend up to 2 hours (or even more) on the weekly homework, if they want to be able to solve most or all the problems (some problems are very challenging applications of the concepts and definitely extend beyond what homework problems normally look like in school). So this comes to about 6 hours of weekly time spent on math (including our class time) and this is what we'd expect for kids to spend in order to master the material and do well on our exams. Again, notice that 2/3 of this time is spent outside of class; that's where a lot of the learning comes from, from struggling to solve problems that are not initially obvious; (not from drilling the basics again and again, which is a large focus of school math classes).

I do agree with your last point, you get what you put into it. Every kid is different and many here are trying to argue very specifically about when and what age, etc. their kids will take a math class. Age is just one of many many factors determining success in a math class. Effort, motivation, encouragement, time available, etc. etc. are other factors and you cannot say that FCPS algebra 1 is better than AoPS, or vice-versa. The programs are completely different. Some kids would not handle AoPS (they may enjoy it, or get something out of going, and you can argue that exposure may be just fine and work for them, but they may not successfully master our material). Obviously those kids also need to learn it well, thus need to take the class in school. On the other hand, there definitely exist kids which master AoPS and consequently do not need the equivalent school class. There are also many kids (maybe most) who do both at the same time; this fits well since they learn the basics in school but at the same time work on more challenging problems at AoPS.

Anonymous wrote:I have a 5th grader and a 7th grader, both in Algebra I Honors in FCPS. The 7th grader is a normal, smart kid who is similar to all of the other smart kids in FCPS. The 5th grader is way beyond that and is bored in the Algebra class. Kids who are more than one year by FCPS are pretty rare, since FCPS doesn't like skipping kids.

That’s not saying much.

Yes. If FCPS is accepting the top 25 percent of a general population. Less than 10 percent of those kids accepted are even actually gifted (top 2 percent) statistically speaking. So maybe 9 kids out of every 100 aap kids. Sometimes will do stand out.

Every child I know who has taken any of these classes has taken the normal sequence of math in school. That is, none of them could substitute aops for a year of math.

I just did a little digging, and apparently there's no consistency at all among FCPS middle schools with the block scheduling. My school does every class on Monday, then half of the classes on Tuesday and Thursday, with the other half on Wednesday and Friday. In a full week of school, each class would meet 3 times.

I don't like block scheduling with math, and I'd strongly prefer to have it meet every day. The three times per week schedule means that the kids aren't practicing concepts every day. Also, a lot more time is wasted when a teacher has to fill 90 minutes rather than 45.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are drinking the koolaid. Some tricks may or may not be covered in a high school Algebra I class. But more is covered in the school class. It’s a class that meets every day for a year. Aops meets once a week.

It’s a great program. It’s the best program that is readily available if you ask me. But nothing compares to a real high school class. Your experience may differ. like with everything you get what you put into it.

DP, but let's do the math. In FCPS middle schools with block scheduling, Algebra I honors meets every other day for 1.5 hours. In that class, perhaps 1 hour is used as instructional time and the other half hour is used for kids to get an early start on homework. So, there are approximately 2.5 hours of instructional time in the schedule. This isn't accounting for teacher work days, holidays, and any other disruptions in the schedule. The average weekly instructional time would be less than 2.5 hours due to the holidays and such.

AoPS classes have 1 hour and 45 minutes of in-class instruction per week. Generally, holidays aren't off, so they're doing this every week. It really isn't much less than an in-person class. Also, AoPS classes have fewer students than FCPS ones, so the kids get more individual attention and are more able to ask questions of the teacher.

Both AoPS and FCPS honors algebra have similar weekly homework loads. There isn't the huge gulf between the two.

This is incorrect. Even with block sceduling, math still meets every day.

And if you really think that AOPS is faithfully replicating a high school honors math class, why would you send your kid to school duplicatively instead of homeschool them? Even in college, as an engineering major, I only took one math class at a time. Poor kids.

Anonymous wrote:
You are drinking the koolaid. Some tricks may or may not be covered in a high school Algebra I class. But more is covered in the school class. It’s a class that meets every day for a year. Aops meets once a week.

It’s a great program. It’s the best program that is readily available if you ask me. But nothing compares to a real high school class. Your experience may differ. like with everything you get what you put into it.

DP, but let's do the math. In FCPS middle schools with block scheduling, Algebra I honors meets every other day for 1.5 hours. In that class, perhaps 1 hour is used as instructional time and the other half hour is used for kids to get an early start on homework. So, there are approximately 2.5 hours of instructional time in the schedule. This isn't accounting for teacher work days, holidays, and any other disruptions in the schedule. The average weekly instructional time would be less than 2.5 hours due to the holidays and such.

AoPS classes have 1 hour and 45 minutes of in-class instruction per week. Generally, holidays aren't off, so they're doing this every week. It really isn't much less than an in-person class. Also, AoPS classes have fewer students than FCPS ones, so the kids get more individual attention and are more able to ask questions of the teacher.

Both AoPS and FCPS honors algebra have similar weekly homework loads. There isn't the huge gulf between the two.

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been at least one poster claiming that a child who is able to take and pass Algebra I in 5th grade is rare or an outlier.

Aops is hugely popular. Loads of 5th graders taking algebra in 5th grade. If you talk to homeschooling circles (where aops is used as a curriculum by itself) it’s by no means weird for above average kids to take algebra I in 5th.

Also there are whole countries where algebra is taught in 5th grade, right? This is a huge argument made on this forum.

So while it’s advanced for a student to study this on the side I don’t think it’s really a sign of needing radical acceleration. It’s merely a sign that the student is receiving outside tutoring.

Having worked with the aops curriculum I don’t think it stands as a complete substitution for an honors Algebra I course that is taught at the high school level. It’s different. The concepts are introduced through self discovery which can mean a student learns at a deeper level. But not always. And I don’t think it is as rigorous. There is far less drilling and practice. Which isn’t needed if the student gets it the first time. But on the flip side a student can easily skip over problem sections and there isn’t much review.

Math competitions in elementary school are purely extra curricular. Doing well on the AMC 8 is only a sign that the student does well on that competition because they are accelerated or because they have studied the test. Not until
The AMC 12 is it really meaningful of anything more.

You see, a child who can fully understand Algebra I at 10 but have trouble with higher level and more abstract problems at 18. There’s no predicting this.

A kid who takes the aops curriculum is not fully understanding Algebra 1 honors level math. They may understand concepts or pockets of material but not the breadth of material for the whole course.

I have to highly disagree with this statement. The AoPS curriculum and problems are deeper than what is found in school algebra 1 classes. Additionally, kids are exposed to many other special topics that would be highly unlikely to be found in school (e.g Vietas formulas, Simon's favorite factoring trick, self similarity, as well as a separate in depth unit on counting and combinatorics). I don't believe any of these topics are seen in school.

You are drinking the koolaid. Some tricks may or may not be covered in a high school Algebra I class. But more is covered in the school class. It’s a class that meets every day for a year. Aops meets once a week.

It’s a great program. It’s the best program that is readily available if you ask me. But nothing compares to a real high school class. Your experience may differ. like with everything you get what you put into it.

There’s also a huge difference between taking a formal AoPS class and independently going through the AoPS books. The classes have graded homework assignments and graded exams. Self study allows a kid to skip around, not do enough problems to reinforce concepts, and not be evaluated on knowledge. People should stop equating a real AoPS class and dabbling with the workbooks. They’re not at all the same.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been at least one poster claiming that a child who is able to take and pass Algebra I in 5th grade is rare or an outlier.

Aops is hugely popular. Loads of 5th graders taking algebra in 5th grade. If you talk to homeschooling circles (where aops is used as a curriculum by itself) it’s by no means weird for above average kids to take algebra I in 5th.

Also there are whole countries where algebra is taught in 5th grade, right? This is a huge argument made on this forum.

So while it’s advanced for a student to study this on the side I don’t think it’s really a sign of needing radical acceleration. It’s merely a sign that the student is receiving outside tutoring.

Having worked with the aops curriculum I don’t think it stands as a complete substitution for an honors Algebra I course that is taught at the high school level. It’s different. The concepts are introduced through self discovery which can mean a student learns at a deeper level. But not always. And I don’t think it is as rigorous. There is far less drilling and practice. Which isn’t needed if the student gets it the first time. But on the flip side a student can easily skip over problem sections and there isn’t much review.

Math competitions in elementary school are purely extra curricular. Doing well on the AMC 8 is only a sign that the student does well on that competition because they are accelerated or because they have studied the test. Not until
The AMC 12 is it really meaningful of anything more.

You see, a child who can fully understand Algebra I at 10 but have trouble with higher level and more abstract problems at 18. There’s no predicting this.

A kid who takes the aops curriculum is not fully understanding Algebra 1 honors level math. They may understand concepts or pockets of material but not the breadth of material for the whole course.

I have to highly disagree with this statement. The AoPS curriculum and problems are deeper than what is found in school algebra 1 classes. Additionally, kids are exposed to many other special topics that would be highly unlikely to be found in school (e.g Vietas formulas, Simon's favorite factoring trick, self similarity, as well as a separate in depth unit on counting and combinatorics). I don't believe any of these topics are seen in school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been at least one poster claiming that a child who is able to take and pass Algebra I in 5th grade is rare or an outlier.

Aops is hugely popular. Loads of 5th graders taking algebra in 5th grade. If you talk to homeschooling circles (where aops is used as a curriculum by itself) it’s by no means weird for above average kids to take algebra I in 5th.

Also there are whole countries where algebra is taught in 5th grade, right? This is a huge argument made on this forum.

So while it’s advanced for a student to study this on the side I don’t think it’s really a sign of needing radical acceleration. It’s merely a sign that the student is receiving outside tutoring.

Having worked with the aops curriculum I don’t think it stands as a complete substitution for an honors Algebra I course that is taught at the high school level. It’s different. The concepts are introduced through self discovery which can mean a student learns at a deeper level. But not always. And I don’t think it is as rigorous. There is far less drilling and practice. Which isn’t needed if the student gets it the first time. But on the flip side a student can easily skip over problem sections and there isn’t much review.

Math competitions in elementary school are purely extra curricular. Doing well on the AMC 8 is only a sign that the student does well on that competition because they are accelerated or because they have studied the test. Not until
The AMC 12 is it really meaningful of anything more.

You see, a child who can fully understand Algebra I at 10 but have trouble with higher level and more abstract problems at 18. There’s no predicting this.

A kid who takes the aops curriculum is not fully understanding Algebra 1 honors level math. They may understand concepts or pockets of material but not the breadth of material for the whole course.

Yes. I agree.

I have a 5th grader and a 7th grader, both in Algebra I Honors in FCPS. The 7th grader is a normal, smart kid who is similar to all of the other smart kids in FCPS. The 5th grader is way beyond that and is bored in the Algebra class. Kids who are more than one year by FCPS are pretty rare, since FCPS doesn't like skipping kids.

What is covered in Algebra I honors that isn't covered in aops?