Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd love to see a study of how well kids perform over the medium/long-term when they are pushed into GT compared to those that earned spots.

What criteria would you use to separate those kids into two groups? Do you have a magic crystal ball?

What is difficult is that these are KIDS we are talking about and their needs vary. Some kids are CLEARLY in NEED of a special program. Some kids clearly don't need a special program. AND some kids will fall somewhere in BETWEEN. Because. Get this. They are human. And so are their parents.

Parents generally want what they believe is the best for their kids. Sometimes kids do get sick on test days. Sometimes kids just aren't good standardized takers. Sometimes kids aren't doing their best in school, but the tests reveal that they have the potential to do better. So it isn't always so cut and try.

There are parents who push, but that doesn't necessarily mean that their kids don't belong. Don't punish the child for the parents' actions.

Anonymous wrote:I'd love to see a study of how well kids perform over the medium/long-term when they are pushed into GT compared to those that earned spots.

Point taken - the tone was inappropriate. But you have to get off the moral high-horse. Self-interest has been the driving force behind this discussion; it is disservice to the proponents of meritocracy to cite that here. Once you have provided the right access to under-privileged kids you will have a different demographic in the GT program. There are many reasons why that cannot happen. So let us keep meritocracy out of this.

The parents on this thread are discussing whether a test score should override everything else in determining IQ. Meritocracy is external to this discussion thread.

Anonymous wrote:Immediately PP - the undertones of your message were disturbing. In any event, smart is just plain smart. There may be a part of the population that can be pushed to achieve more academically, but the upper tier? They will get there no matter what. It is with them from birth.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It will make it that much easier for him when he competes against these children!

This attitude, which has now started to pervade this previously useful thread, is so disheartening. Why does it have to be a competition in SECOND GRADE? I'm not naive; I realize competition is a part of life and unfortunately it starts early. But I really do believe that one of the things that makes our schools (or at least my children's school) so wonderful is the cooperative learning environment and the way that parents (again, maybe just at my school) try to support the school and every child in it. I hate to read these posts because I fear some of you are passing these attitudes on to your children, teaching them that they are superior to others simply because of a test score.

Having attended what would be termed a elite university in the US and studied abroad on very competitive fellowship in England (you know the name), our education system is weakened by this attitude that insulates kids from competition early on. Kids at the second grade are ready for challenges and testing the boudnaries of their abilities. I don't disagree the cooperatation is important, my point is that expanding elite programs for children that simply don't belong in them is not in the best interests of the child. In many cases, its more about the parents who want to brag that their child is attending a GT Center, somehow validating the parents' (not the child's) success, instead of what's best for the child. This is a general statement and there are certainly exceptions.

For example, take a look at Germany, kids there are told in 4/5 grade whether they're on the university track, skilled labor, or middle of the road. In the U.S. we delay this until university. No doubt, I push my kids to deliver and get results versus making excuses for them and hiring experts to make a case for why they were sick or the test was somehow flawed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It will make it that much easier for him when he competes against these children!

German schools don't work that way at all, not in the early years. In fact, they don't even get grades until 3rd year, and they only go to school until 12:30. They add on a couple of days in 3rd grade, and it stays that way until around 6th grade. I'm German, and my kids go to the German School DC. It's not a "meritocracy" until much later. The German system has it's definite flaws (they all do), but it appears to be working better (at least for my kids) than the others. They're bilingual, and independent testing has shown they're performing above grade level in mathematics and English reading comprehension/writing. Can't really test the German outside of the school that easily, but they appear to be doing fine, and they're native speakers.

This is simply not true. Having attend a German Gymnasium (in Germany), nothing could be further from the truth. There is huge competition to push kids at soon as they begin school and its serious business. German don't play this game of making exceptions, you're either in or out and that's that. We may view this as brutal but its the reality or a system that produces some of thetop minds in the world.

I disagree. It is well known in many parts of Germany that parents can push their kids into gymnasium (unless, of course, they are of Turkish descent).

That part is sad, but true.