Anonymous
11/28/2018 15:49
Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I am the PP you are responding to. I am Jewish. I don't care about appropriation. I care about Judaism and Jewish identity.
Not sure what that means... or why you care if anyone else has a non-religious tree in their house.
I also don't care if the tree attends church, or refrains from eating pork (non religious tree? Wut?)
I care that Jews remain Jewish, and yeah, having a Christmas tree is another step in assimilation. We are a small people, and each one we lose matters. Again, unless you are Jewish, I dont think you can understand that feeling.
Anonymous
11/28/2018 15:47
Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I don't know where you live but if you go to any church the christmas tree will be present and the services will focus on the true meaning of christmas, which is not the santa in the mall. Again, why the intensity of you effort to turn christmas into some sort of non-demonitational holiday? Is it simply to make you feel better about having a tree in your home?
First, I don't care what goes in any church. Mine had fish symbols in it also, does that mean we should be offended by Bass Pro Shops?
There is no intensity on this side to turn christmas into anything. It can be means what it means to you and exactly zero non-religious people will take any issue with it. But it is your side that is saying non-religious people should not put up a tree or celebrate the season. One side is intolerant despite the fact they they are guilty of exactly what they accuse others of.
Get it, now? Finally?
Different poster here. I don't care what non-religious people do. What I find annoying -- not offensive, but annoying -- is people who keep claiming that Christmas is secular and therefore Jews should celebrate it as a secular or American holiday. If Christmas can be whatever it means, then I wish those posters (who may not be you) would understand that to most Jews, at least any who were raised with any religious or traditional fervor, Christmas means Christ. Even if the actual celebration for many people means Santa. Because Christmas means Christ, and Jews don't do Christ, Jews don't do Christmas. It's pretty simple.
NP. LOL. Nobody here said Jews should celebrate Christmas. The only people who even care whether a Jew has a Christmas tree are other Jews.
And guess what, there are "other Jews" on this thread. Which you will note, is about Jews with Christmas trees, not gentile Agnostics with Christmas trees.
Look, as a Jew I want Jews to embrace Judaism and Jewishness. But if they are getting a Christmas tree, religious or not, they are probably either doing it for the intermarried partner or they are too far gone in assimilation to really worry about.
But what I and other committed Jews hear on this (and elsewhere) is GENTILES telling us "There is nothing "christian" about a Christmas tree, because yadda yadda yadda" which is not actually insisting on us getting trees, but is basically saying our reasons to not have one have no validity.
Now if your issue is some fundie saying to you (a non religious goy) that you shouldnt be allowed to have a tree because you don't go to church, you can have that debate, but could you like have it in a thread other than whose title is specifically about Jews?
Anonymous
11/28/2018 15:37
Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:
Different poster here. I don't care what non-religious people do. What I find annoying -- not offensive, but annoying -- is people who keep claiming that Christmas is secular and therefore Jews should celebrate it as a secular or American holiday. If Christmas can be whatever it means, then I wish those posters (who may not be you) would understand that to most Jews, at least any who were raised with any religious or traditional fervor, Christmas means Christ. Even if the actual celebration for many people means Santa. Because Christmas means Christ, and Jews don't do Christ, Jews don't do Christmas. It's pretty simple.
Well that will be news to all the people insisting that Jews do Christ.
Which, as far as I can tell, is exactly zero people.
Not sure what the problem is, still.
Anonymous
11/28/2018 15:36
Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I don't know where you live but if you go to any church the christmas tree will be present and the services will focus on the true meaning of christmas, which is not the santa in the mall. Again, why the intensity of you effort to turn christmas into some sort of non-demonitational holiday? Is it simply to make you feel better about having a tree in your home?
First, I don't care what goes in any church. Mine had fish symbols in it also, does that mean we should be offended by Bass Pro Shops?
There is no intensity on this side to turn christmas into anything. It can be means what it means to you and exactly zero non-religious people will take any issue with it. But it is your side that is saying non-religious people should not put up a tree or celebrate the season. One side is intolerant despite the fact they they are guilty of exactly what they accuse others of.
Get it, now? Finally?
Different poster here. I don't care what non-religious people do. What I find annoying -- not offensive, but annoying -- is people who keep claiming that Christmas is secular and therefore Jews should celebrate it as a secular or American holiday. If Christmas can be whatever it means, then I wish those posters (who may not be you) would understand that to most Jews, at least any who were raised with any religious or traditional fervor, Christmas means Christ. Even if the actual celebration for many people means Santa. Because Christmas means Christ, and Jews don't do Christ, Jews don't do Christmas. It's pretty simple.
NP. LOL. Nobody here said Jews should celebrate Christmas. The only people who even care whether a Jew has a Christmas tree are other Jews.
Anonymous
11/28/2018 15:21
Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I don't know where you live but if you go to any church the christmas tree will be present and the services will focus on the true meaning of christmas, which is not the santa in the mall. Again, why the intensity of you effort to turn christmas into some sort of non-demonitational holiday? Is it simply to make you feel better about having a tree in your home?
First, I don't care what goes in any church. Mine had fish symbols in it also, does that mean we should be offended by Bass Pro Shops?
There is no intensity on this side to turn christmas into anything. It can be means what it means to you and exactly zero non-religious people will take any issue with it. But it is your side that is saying non-religious people should not put up a tree or celebrate the season. One side is intolerant despite the fact they they are guilty of exactly what they accuse others of.
Get it, now? Finally?
Different poster here. I don't care what non-religious people do. What I find annoying -- not offensive, but annoying -- is people who keep claiming that Christmas is secular and therefore Jews should celebrate it as a secular or American holiday. If Christmas can be whatever it means, then I wish those posters (who may not be you) would understand that to most Jews, at least any who were raised with any religious or traditional fervor, Christmas means Christ. Even if the actual celebration for many people means Santa. Because Christmas means Christ, and Jews don't do Christ, Jews don't do Christmas. It's pretty simple.
Anonymous
11/28/2018 15:00
Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:
I am the PP you are responding to. I am Jewish. I don't care about appropriation. I care about Judaism and Jewish identity.
Not sure what that means... or why you care if anyone else has a non-religious tree in their house.
Anonymous
11/28/2018 14:59
Subject: Re:Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
I think the problem with this thread is that two different debates are becoming intermixed (so to speak)
There is a debate AMONG Christians (serious and nominal) about the "meaning" of Christmas and particularly its secular customs.
There is a debate among Jews about the value and methods for Jewish cultural and "national" survival.
The latter debate has, I am sorry to say, no place for Christians (or gentile agnostics for that matter). For reasons I hope would be obvious.
There is a debate AMONG Christians (serious and nominal) about the "meaning" of Christmas and particularly its secular customs.
There is a debate among Jews about the value and methods for Jewish cultural and "national" survival.
The latter debate has, I am sorry to say, no place for Christians (or gentile agnostics for that matter). For reasons I hope would be obvious.
Anonymous
11/28/2018 14:55
Subject: Re:Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anyone here read "The Conversion of the Jews" by Philip Roth. An excellent piece of fiction on assimilation and child indulgence.
Cultural survival isn't easy. We shall, as always, be saved by a righteous remnant.
Cultural survival isn't easy. We shall, as always, be saved by a righteous remnant.
Anonymous
11/28/2018 14:52
Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:
I'm the immediate pp. I'm not the pp you think I am. I'm not Jewish, I'm Christian and this is my observation of what Christmas has become. I get that you want to protect your religion, I'm just saying I don't think having a Christmas tree is an indication that someone wants to be Christian or that it's a slow creep into Chrstianity. It might be a slow creep into materialism, but given the gifts my Jewish friends give their kids for Hanukkah now, that's already happening. A pp said the decorate the tree with Jewish symbols, that's a great way to keep your kids in your faith from feeling like outsiders during this time. The mensch on a bench instead of the elf on the shelf also does this, and actually does it in a was that teaches about Jewish traditions.
Its a slow creep away from Jewish identity, which is related to, but not quite the same as, the Jewish faith.
Since you are a Christian may I suggest that, unless you have made the study of Jewish identity, culture and history your vocation, you almost certainly do NOT understand the relationship among religion, culture, minority status, and identity among American Jews.
Decorating a tree with Jewish symbols feels gross to me. I bet most born Jews who are not completely assimilated will share that feeling.
If people want their kids to learn Jewish traditions, and prefer using holidays for that rather than a shul religious school, I would suggest Purim, Passover, Sukkot and Shavuot for that.
Anonymous
11/28/2018 14:47
Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.
How many times do you need this explained to you?
How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?
Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.
An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.
Not the PP you are responding to but did you miss their use of the word "become"?
No, I did not miss that.
Things don't just "become". History matters. Ignorance of it does not constitute fact.
Things DO become. Appropriation is part of history. That something that became part of the culture of group Y originated in group X does not mean its not a charecteristic of group Y. Especially when the meaning changes.
There aren't any european pagans left (I mean aside from goofballs trying revivals on reddit, or sh*t like that) The christmas tree is no longer a pagan thing. It survives ONLY because it became associated with the celebration of the birth of Christ.
A Jew with a tree is not celebrating Saturnalia (not that they should) or a Germanic winter solstice. They are celebrating Christmas, which is THE only place that old pagan solstice customs survive. Those customs are now linked with things like Christmas carols (which are sung by "secular" people of Christian background, doncha know). No Jew gets a tree because their kids envy the pagans next door who are doing a tree and also chanting about wotan and thor, or Jupiter and Minerva. They get them because they want to imitate their neighbors who are either Christians, or are descended from generations of Christians.
Look its okay that you want a tree, because your husbands parents had one, or because Judaism is not important enough for you to care about its holidays and customs. But this "oh its pagan" thing is a tired, cliched, excuse.
Thanks for making the most important point -- that christians are the ones that appropriated the symbol, not the other way around!
I will also point out the irony of you saying "we can appropriate things, but you are not permitted to appropriate them back". Niiiiice.
I am the PP you are responding to. I am Jewish. I don't care about appropriation. I care about Judaism and Jewish identity.
Anonymous
11/28/2018 14:47
Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.
How many times do you need this explained to you?
How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?
Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.
An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.
Not the PP you are responding to but did you miss their use of the word "become"?
No, I did not miss that.
Things don't just "become". History matters. Ignorance of it does not constitute fact.
You don't understand how customs evolve over time? History matters but so does the present and it is undeniable that the evergreen tree has come to be a central symbol of the celebration of Christmas which in turn is a celebration of the birth of Jesus. What are you motives in denying these facts?
If we are talking about how things evolve over time, the evergreen tree has become the central figure in celebrating gift bringing by Santa. As a class full of average elementary school kids and you would realize that. Christmas is all about gift from Santa, not about the birth of Jesus. So if you really think how things have evolved, I'm not sure why you are ignoring the present significance of Xmas.
I don't know where you live but if you go to any church the christmas tree will be present and the services will focus on the true meaning of christmas, which is not the santa in the mall. Again, why the intensity of you effort to turn christmas into some sort of non-demonitational holiday? Is it simply to make you feel better about having a tree in your home?
I'm the immediate pp. I'm not the pp you think I am. I'm not Jewish, I'm Christian and this is my observation of what Christmas has become. I get that you want to protect your religion, I'm just saying I don't think having a Christmas tree is an indication that someone wants to be Christian or that it's a slow creep into Chrstianity. It might be a slow creep into materialism, but given the gifts my Jewish friends give their kids for Hanukkah now, that's already happening. A pp said the decorate the tree with Jewish symbols, that's a great way to keep your kids in your faith from feeling like outsiders during this time. The mensch on a bench instead of the elf on the shelf also does this, and actually does it in a was that teaches about Jewish traditions.
It's not really about protecting a religion it was more an attempt to understand the motivation behind having a tree if one were jewish and why traditional jewish symbols simply weren't enough. If somebody simply stated, as you did, that a tree helped to mitigate the feelings of being an outsider amongst so much overt christmas regalia I would have understood. But what i heard were statements of fact that christmas trees have nothing to do with christmas, that christmas itself is a secular holiday, that christians appropriated the tree from pagans in the first place, etc. There was a fair amount of evasion, deflection and frankly hostility that i found it curious.
Anonymous
11/28/2018 13:41
Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.
How many times do you need this explained to you?
How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?
Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.
An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.
Not the PP you are responding to but did you miss their use of the word "become"?
No, I did not miss that.
Things don't just "become". History matters. Ignorance of it does not constitute fact.
You don't understand how customs evolve over time? History matters but so does the present and it is undeniable that the evergreen tree has come to be a central symbol of the celebration of Christmas which in turn is a celebration of the birth of Jesus. What are you motives in denying these facts?
If we are talking about how things evolve over time, the evergreen tree has become the central figure in celebrating gift bringing by Santa. As a class full of average elementary school kids and you would realize that. Christmas is all about gift from Santa, not about the birth of Jesus. So if you really think how things have evolved, I'm not sure why you are ignoring the present significance of Xmas.
I don't know where you live but if you go to any church the christmas tree will be present and the services will focus on the true meaning of christmas, which is not the santa in the mall. Again, why the intensity of you effort to turn christmas into some sort of non-demonitational holiday? Is it simply to make you feel better about having a tree in your home?
I'm the immediate pp. I'm not the pp you think I am. I'm not Jewish, I'm Christian and this is my observation of what Christmas has become. I get that you want to protect your religion, I'm just saying I don't think having a Christmas tree is an indication that someone wants to be Christian or that it's a slow creep into Chrstianity. It might be a slow creep into materialism, but given the gifts my Jewish friends give their kids for Hanukkah now, that's already happening. A pp said the decorate the tree with Jewish symbols, that's a great way to keep your kids in your faith from feeling like outsiders during this time. The mensch on a bench instead of the elf on the shelf also does this, and actually does it in a was that teaches about Jewish traditions.
Anonymous
11/28/2018 13:21
Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
NP. As an agnostic who was raised Christian, I have no horse in this race. But I think it’s clear that Christmas trees are cultural and not religious. They have more in common with Queen Victoria than Jesus. There are lots of Christians in the world who do not put up trees at Christmas because it is not part of their cultural tradition to do so, and it is not a form of worship in any way. There are also plenty of non-Christians who have adopted the Christmas tree tradition in Asia where the holiday has been appropriated in non-religious ways. It’s similar to how Mexicans eat tamales at Christmas. It’s part of their cultural celebration, but not a religious belief or practice. But I don’t care whether anyone does or doesn’t have a tree in their house, or what religion they practice.
Anonymous
11/28/2018 13:20
Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:
I don't know where you live but if you go to any church the christmas tree will be present and the services will focus on the true meaning of christmas, which is not the santa in the mall. Again, why the intensity of you effort to turn christmas into some sort of non-demonitational holiday? Is it simply to make you feel better about having a tree in your home?
First, I don't care what goes in any church. Mine had fish symbols in it also, does that mean we should be offended by Bass Pro Shops?
There is no intensity on this side to turn christmas into anything. It can be means what it means to you and exactly zero non-religious people will take any issue with it. But it is your side that is saying non-religious people should not put up a tree or celebrate the season. One side is intolerant despite the fact they they are guilty of exactly what they accuse others of.
Get it, now? Finally?
Anonymous
11/28/2018 13:14
Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:
Your analogy is laughably idiotic....do you still see hordes of pagans celebrating around their evergreen tree? I couldn't care less what you do in your home but I find it interesting how you're twisting yourself into a knot in your eagerness to detach the christmas tree from christmas.
Yes, in nearly every non-religious or passively religious home. That's kinda the point.
The history thing only becomes important when intolerant christians yell "I am offended you are appropriating the symbol we previously appropriated!"