Anonymous
05/26/2018 14:04
Subject: Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
OP, you may find this hard to believe but it's not as easy as you think to get accommodations on the ACT and SAT. I'm the PP whose daughter has abnormal eye tracking and low processing. She is in a special program at her high school that provides her with the support she needs to do well in college prep courses.
The program director told us to be prepared to be turned down for ACT/SAT accommodations despite her IEP and other documentation. She said the bar is very high, most get turned down - however, she will then file an appeal and provide additional documentation and we cross our fingers that is is accepted by ACT/SAT.
She felt our daughter has a good chance of getting accommodations on an appeal, but not to count on it for they routinely turn down kids that she feels really should get it. So, rest assured, they are not handing out extra hours like candy to anyone who asks or provides them with a minimum of documentation of a vague problem.
The program director told us to be prepared to be turned down for ACT/SAT accommodations despite her IEP and other documentation. She said the bar is very high, most get turned down - however, she will then file an appeal and provide additional documentation and we cross our fingers that is is accepted by ACT/SAT.
She felt our daughter has a good chance of getting accommodations on an appeal, but not to count on it for they routinely turn down kids that she feels really should get it. So, rest assured, they are not handing out extra hours like candy to anyone who asks or provides them with a minimum of documentation of a vague problem.
Anonymous
05/26/2018 13:46
Subject: Re:Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
Anonymous wrote:There are some really horrible people on this thread. God, I hope there are some sock puppets, cause it is hard to believe that so many people feel this way about people with disabilities.
And women. And people of color. And non-Americans. And LGBTQ individuals. And Muslims. And Asian students— there is a lot of hatred in this country right now. A lot of people blaming others for their own shortcomings. People with disabilities are just the latest in a long line of people being blamed because white men have to compete, rather than just being handed things for being white men. The amount of whining and victimhood has just exploded in the last year or so.
When your kid puts in the amount of time and effort that my 2e TJ kid puts in and does not get into similarly impressive colleges, I will believe you have a point. Until then, throw out the XBox, delete social media, and tell you kid they will have to regularly study 10-15 hours over the weekend and until after midnight during the week, in part because they don’t get home from extracurriculars until 8:30. Because that is how my kid will get into a top college. Not because of extra 1/2 hour on the math section of the SAT.
And if this is not the high school experience you want for your kid, fine. That’s fair. But don’t expect them to get into a top college ahead of kids who are putting in the sweat equity.
Anonymous
05/26/2018 13:33
Subject: Re:Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
Anonymous wrote:There are some really horrible people on this thread. God, I hope there are some sock puppets, cause it is hard to believe that so many people feel this way about people with disabilities.
well, that's the question isn't it? Do they all have "disabilities?" 22% of the students at Pomona seems awfully high. Can't blame people for being a bit skeptical, especially since it was only 5% a few years ago.
Anonymous
05/26/2018 13:27
Subject: Re:Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
There are some really horrible people on this thread. God, I hope there are some sock puppets, cause it is hard to believe that so many people feel this way about people with disabilities.
Anonymous
05/26/2018 12:45
Subject: Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People with disabilities aren't inherently inferior to you. Using a computer instead of a pencil to type an essay isn't cheating any more than using a ramp instead of the stairs is cheating. Having simply average working memory isn't going to make a surgeon botch a surgery. Using a calculator isn't going to doom an engineer into a life of professional ineptitude. Having dyslexia doesn't mean that a writer won't become a best seller or a financier won't succeed so wildly that he becomes a household name. Having ADHD and dropping out of college doesn't mean a person won't create a start up and become filthy rich. And a single test that arbitrarily penalizes anyone with atypical strengths and weaknesses in no way justifies withholding future opportunities from that individual.
Visual working memory is important to performing surgery. It's been studied in simulators.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00464-007-9287-8
It's dangerous to make claims consistent with what you want to believe that are not consistent with the pushback of reality.[/
"Low" working memory in most cases is relative to the person's strengths. I think it's a fairly safe assumption that someone who succeeds in the medical field has a high overall intelligence. Two standard deviations between working memory and their strengths would still put working memory at average if not high average. Your study shows that someone like this may not be as skilled in certain types of surgery as peers with superior or gifted range working memory. It does not show that they would botch surgery. Botched surgeries have much more to do with poor team dynamic and communication.
I’m the PP who has the kid at TJ and think they do a great job on giving *reasonable* accommodations. My kids has more than 2 SDs between PS and GAI IQ. He gets 1.5 time for major tests. But his reading/writing are not a problem, so he only uses it in math and physics. TJ will accommodate this, but he must still complete the core curriculum— every extra class TJ requires, research lab, every project, every homework assignment, and he is graded by the exact same standards as all the other kids. The extra time in math enables him to demonstrate his actual level of mastery. But make no mistake TJ designs math tests where they expect kids to not be able to solve 15-20% of the problems. If everyone was given unlimited time, there would still be only a few As.
If a kid can perform at the same level as other surgical residents using only accommodations that would have no adverse impact on a patients (including not making surgical errors or not staying under anasthesia longer) and which don’t disrupt the hospital environment, they should be able to become surgeons. Otherwise, they should wash out. But let’s get real. Kids with the brainpower to become surgeons with accommodations are smart enough to choose a different, also highly prestgious profession, that draws on their strengths and allows them to succeed because of who they are, not despite it. Are you really saying their are hundreds of ADHD kids lining up to become bad surgeons. The ADHD kids I know are choosing field where they need minimal or no accommodations.
And who knows. Maybe my kid is a better hire because of the determination and work ethic it takes to succeed at someplace like TJ with 2e. Not to perform surgery, I’ll grant you. But show me a 2e kid succeeding at TJ, and I will show you a kid who will always give 110% and never give up. Those are important attributes too.
The ADA, which is what governs in the real world, requires that a disabled employee perform core job functions with accommodation that do not provide an unreasonable burden to the employer. So if the surgeon can perform surgery up to the standard of care without disruptive or very expensive accommodations, the ADA covers them. And kinda like TJ. You must succeed in the core curriculum and they will not permit accommodations that take away from other kids ability to learn.
And stop and consider, just for a minute, that school should be about everyone learning up to their potential. Not about competing or “winning”. In a perfect school environment, the one we should strive for, all kids succeed, and all kids “win”.
Because this is about high school and college kids. My kid understands and can apply advanced calculus in out of the box situations. That is a core requirement at TJ. If he was not capable of understanding and applying calculus, then he would be asked to leave— disability or not. And American needs more citizens with a highly advanced understanding of math. If it takes him an extra 20 minutes to demonstrate that understanding because of a documented learning disability, who is being harmed? Who loses, because my kid succeeds? TJ does not even grade on a strict curve. It’s not like there can only be 7 As in the class. Everyone else’s grades stay the same. Especially since his eventual career will almost certainly not emphasize the speed of
Anonymous
05/26/2018 12:29
Subject: Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
http://pointsandfigures.com/2011/06/21/gaming-the-standardized-tests-for-college/
“Hypothetically, if you distributed the scores of all students sitting for the SAT on a curve, with or without accommodation, it should approximate the normal curve (a.k.a. the “bell-curve”). When the College Board plotted the 2005 results of students taking the test with accommodations, the results yielded not a bell-curve but rather a bi-modal distribution (meaning the distribution was top and bottom heavy with a disproportionate number of low scoring and high scoring students rather than a tendency toward the mean). This greatly alarmed the College Board that the population of students receiving accommodation did not mirror the rest of the population.”
“Hypothetically, if you distributed the scores of all students sitting for the SAT on a curve, with or without accommodation, it should approximate the normal curve (a.k.a. the “bell-curve”). When the College Board plotted the 2005 results of students taking the test with accommodations, the results yielded not a bell-curve but rather a bi-modal distribution (meaning the distribution was top and bottom heavy with a disproportionate number of low scoring and high scoring students rather than a tendency toward the mean). This greatly alarmed the College Board that the population of students receiving accommodation did not mirror the rest of the population.”
Anonymous
05/26/2018 12:21
Subject: Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
Anonymous
05/26/2018 12:15
Subject: Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
Excerpts from a NYT article:
A 2000 audit of California test takers showed a disproportionate number of white, affluent students receiving accommodations, igniting suspicions of exaggerated or nonexistent disabilities. Three years later, in the wake of a lawsuit, ACT and the College Board stopped flagging scores of accommodated students for admissions offices; with the stigma gone, the incentive grew to game the system. “What was before a pro forma request now turned into a very elaborate process with a lot of waiting time,” says Steven Roy Goodman, co-author of “College Admissions Together: It Takes a Family.”
Patsy J. Prince of Academic Tutoring Centers in suburban Chicago says this of the ACT and SAT: “Both have become more difficult, and rightly so. People sense that they could use extended time and don’t realize that you have to have a diagnosed issue. They are inundated with requests for extended time without testing from an educational psychologist.”
A 2000 audit of California test takers showed a disproportionate number of white, affluent students receiving accommodations, igniting suspicions of exaggerated or nonexistent disabilities. Three years later, in the wake of a lawsuit, ACT and the College Board stopped flagging scores of accommodated students for admissions offices; with the stigma gone, the incentive grew to game the system. “What was before a pro forma request now turned into a very elaborate process with a lot of waiting time,” says Steven Roy Goodman, co-author of “College Admissions Together: It Takes a Family.”
Patsy J. Prince of Academic Tutoring Centers in suburban Chicago says this of the ACT and SAT: “Both have become more difficult, and rightly so. People sense that they could use extended time and don’t realize that you have to have a diagnosed issue. They are inundated with requests for extended time without testing from an educational psychologist.”
Anonymous
05/26/2018 12:09
Subject: Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:But all of the OMG people are gaming the system because it's so easy hysteria is pretty laughable. Going through the IEP process (which you need in order to get testing accommodations) is far from easy. It is also still regarded as shameful by many to be atypical so frequently kids who really need the accommodations refuse to take them. This is a huge problem and the attitudes on display here are the root of it. Someone with a disability has just as much right to pursue the career of their choice as a typical. They will have to work harder than their typical peers but for most that is hardly a new thing.
I agree that it's extremely unlikely that there is a lot of gaming the IEP system. Parents actually do not want their child "labeled" incorrectly, and it is also hard to meet the legal standard for an IEP. But the college "disabilities" are not that rigorous to show.
If you are part of prep school w wealthy families, there is no shame but pride that they managed to get extra time for their kids. And these wealthy people have a lot of connections - it is not that difficult to get the accomodations. The reality is there is a group of genuine need for accomodations and then there is another group gaming the system.
Anonymous
05/26/2018 12:09
Subject: Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I just wrote above about intelligence, talent, and creativity in kids who previously would not have received accommodations, but should. So this is an interesting claim.
So let me ask you this -- honest question, and I'll listen to the answer. Please be honest back.
If your child (or your mom, or you) is going into surgery, are you okay with knowing that the surgeon has a simple average working memory? That the surgery won't probably not be "BOTCHED" botched, but just not as good?
For most people, not totally "botched" is not good enough. And not as good as it could be is not good enough, either. Someone with average working memory shouldn't go into surgery.
For most types of surgery, yes. I know people with life altering (fortunately not life-ending) results from botched surgery. In every case it could have been prevented by the team actually caring about the patient and/or communicating better amongst themselves. If you want the best results, you want to have a surgical team who's worked together many times in the past and have smooth communication, you want them to leave their personal lives outside the room, and you want to be scheduled earlier in the day.
I meant that while you may say the word talent, you're still defining people by their disability regardless of their talent.
I don't think you know what I am thinking or how I define people. You seem to be making assumptions without realizing it.
Are you aware of the literature on medical and surgical error? About how what actually happened (based on intensive investigation) differs from the story that was initially given? And about how much error goes unreported or unrecognized?
Surgery is an intensely visual field. Whether you are looking back and forth from a electronic screen with magnified field to the instruments in the body, or holding the architecture of an MRI in mind as you dissect, or what have you, the working memory has to be top notch. Things happen quickly, right in front of you, and you need quick visual processing speed also. This is not true in many other areas of medicine, such as infectious disease or genetics. But it is true for surgery.
From what I understand, trial lawyers rely on auditory processing speed and working memory in cross-examination. Probably not so much in contract law.
I don't know what you rely on in engineering. I trust you are a better judge of that than I am. I've never done it, but I have done surgeries.
There is absolutely no reason not to make accommodations so that each child can succeed to the fullest of their potential. Each child's potential is not going to be the same, though, even if we make accommodations. Each one will have some strengths and some weaknesses.
Don't go into surgery if you do not have excellent visual working memory. Not yet, anyway.
Anonymous
05/26/2018 11:56
Subject: Re:Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
Anonymous wrote:I’m shocked, shocked I say, that extra time results in better scores. Some are legit, some are phony.
Few studies have focused solely on the impact of time
on standard administrations (Bridgeman et al., 2004;
Wild and Durso, 1979). Bridgeman et al. report in a
recent study on the impact of speededness on the SAT
that the verbal section was only slightly speeded, affecting
performance by less than 10 points on the SAT scale. The
mathematics section was slightly more speeded, impacting
performance by approximately 20 points. This effect was
more pronounced for high-ability students. Decreasing
speededness provided absolutely no benefit to low-ability
students.
The Impact of Extended Time on SAT® Test Performance
Ellen B. Mandinach, Brent Bridgeman,
Cara Cahalan-Laitusis, and Catherine Trapani
Anonymous
05/26/2018 11:35
Subject: Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People with disabilities aren't inherently inferior to you. Using a computer instead of a pencil to type an essay isn't cheating any more than using a ramp instead of the stairs is cheating. Having simply average working memory isn't going to make a surgeon botch a surgery. Using a calculator isn't going to doom an engineer into a life of professional ineptitude. Having dyslexia doesn't mean that a writer won't become a best seller or a financier won't succeed so wildly that he becomes a household name. Having ADHD and dropping out of college doesn't mean a person won't create a start up and become filthy rich. And a single test that arbitrarily penalizes anyone with atypical strengths and weaknesses in no way justifies withholding future opportunities from that individual.
Visual working memory is important to performing surgery. It's been studied in simulators.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00464-007-9287-8
It's dangerous to make claims consistent with what you want to believe that are not consistent with the pushback of reality.
"Low" working memory in most cases is relative to the person's strengths. I think it's a fairly safe assumption that someone who succeeds in the medical field has a high overall intelligence. Two standard deviations between working memory and their strengths would still put working memory at average if not high average. Your study shows that someone like this may not be as skilled in certain types of surgery as peers with superior or gifted range working memory. It does not show that they would botch surgery. Botched surgeries have much more to do with poor team dynamic and communication.
I don't think you have performed surgery, then.
Of course not. I'm an engineer. But I can read and I know the source of CRM. You really, really want to define people by their weakest areas alone and moreover you only want to talk about weak areas that impact testing. I'm saying that first, areas of strength can more than make up for areas of weaknesses and second, the areas of weakness that you're talking about are not the dominating factor. People with no IQ subtest disparities botch surgeries all the time because of those weaknesses, but strangely you don't want to talk about that.
I just wrote above about intelligence, talent, and creativity in kids who previously would not have received accommodations, but should. So this is an interesting claim.
So let me ask you this -- honest question, and I'll listen to the answer. Please be honest back.
If your child (or your mom, or you) is going into surgery, are you okay with knowing that the surgeon has a simple average working memory? That the surgery won't probably not be "BOTCHED" botched, but just not as good?
For most people, not totally "botched" is not good enough. And not as good as it could be is not good enough, either. Someone with average working memory shouldn't go into surgery.
For most types of surgery, yes. I know people with life altering (fortunately not life-ending) results from botched surgery. In every case it could have been prevented by the team actually caring about the patient and/or communicating better amongst themselves. If you want the best results, you want to have a surgical team who's worked together many times in the past and have smooth communication, you want them to leave their personal lives outside the room, and you want to be scheduled earlier in the day.
I meant that while you may say the word talent, you're still defining people by their disability regardless of their talent.
Anonymous
05/26/2018 11:35
Subject: Re:Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Lots of kids get through the work pretty quickly. Mine needs the extra time to check for careless errors.
How is this different from any other kid?
+1000
My kid makes a crazy amount of careless errors. Not because he has a disability, but because he works quickly and doesn’t pay attention to details. Has it ever crossed anyone’s mind that even without a diagnosis, kids can be impulsive, rushed, careless, flaky, disorganized, forgetful or (gasp) just plain not good at something? They’re kids. These things are only considered disabilities now because we expect them to be miniature 30 year olds. Being a teenager is hard. Add to that the pressure of being perfect and fully adult when your brain physically is not yet and what you get is a big stack of IEPs.
Anonymous
05/26/2018 11:34
Subject: Re:Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
There’s more anxiety now then when similarly aged kids faced the Vietnam War draft, etc.? This so pathetic.
Anonymous
05/26/2018 11:32
Subject: Re:Wall Street Journal on rampant growth in percentage of college students with “disabilities”
I’m shocked, shocked I say, that extra time results in better scores. Some are legit, some are phony.