Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 15:16     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
It the admission was racial-blind, non of the discussion would have had started. MCPS was unhappy about the racial composition of the magnet program student body, which is why the Metis study was commissioned in the first place. The company is for-profit and the study was not reviewed by peers other than the "experts" in MCPS.

The HGC admission was notoriously non-transparent. Only student's test scores and the median scores of the ACCEPTED students were provided in the decision letter in the past. Now, it's even less transparent. Wonder what's the reason for the change?


Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 14:06     Subject: Re:Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Just a data point.

2017 PARCC scores for Montgomery County 3rd grade students (this year's HGC pool) by race

English - Met or Exceeded expectations

Asian - 72.2%
Black - 34%
Hispanic - 24.5%
White - 67.8%

English - Did not meet or Partially met expectations

Asian - 12.2%
Black - 42.7%
Hispanic - 52.7%
White - 14.1%

Math - Met or Exceeded expectations

Asian - 82.1%
Black - 37.9%
Hispanic - 32.9%
White - 74%

Math - Did not meet or Partially met expectations

Asian - 6.8%
Black - 34.9%
Hispanic - 39.4%
White - 9.9%



Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 13:58     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:How does lowering the admission bar for magnets close the achievement gap? If this is what MCPS is doing, how will they measure it?


There is no evidence that MCPS is lowering the admission bar for magnets. And even if MCPS were lowering the admission bar for magnets, it wouldn't close the achievement gap. Or even lessen it.

There is an idee fixe among a group of posters on DCUM that MCPS is trying to close the achievement gap by ruining the education of white and Asian-American kids, and many of the posts on this thread are a reflection of this.


+1


Yes. It is almost guaranteed that when this discussion comes up, it will inevitably devolve into a handful of (dare I say RACIST) posters declaring that the "Asians" or "Jews" or "Whites" are being held back or not given a good education due to some trumped up pablum about having to "water down the standards" for the AAs and Hispanics. No one is watering down anything - 100 spots for 3000 test takers - I guarantee you that the people who are chosen, regardless of skin color or ethnicity, will be very, very bright. But, if you are so worried - since there is a strong concentration in the Western part of the county of certain ethnicities, perhaps you can just live there and be with your own "super-bright" cohort - no need to have 45 minute bus ride - you got all the super-bright kids in your own backyard.


I tend to agree. (I mean I do agree with everything you said -- but I do feel this thread has some racist undertones).

Is it racist to state a fact, that the URM group as a whole scores lower? Even MCPS has acknowledged that. If as a group they score lower, how else do you increase their participation if test scores were a huge part of the admissions criteria?


Yes, it is racist to state that URM as a whole scores lower, therefore providing more information and using tests that don't tip in favor of test prep somehow means that whatever URM is chosen for a program means that the child does not somehow deserve to be in the class or cannot otherwise thrive without "watering down" the program.

Stating a fact is now considered racist. I guess MCPS is racist then. Good to know.



I don't think the fact part of your statement is the racist part -- its the assumption that the only URM that get into HGC somehow aren't qualified to be there and are only there because they somehow "lowered standards"

Never did I state that there were no smart URM kids. My DC went to HGC, and there were some black kids there, and I think a couple of Hispanic kids. But, given all the changes, and the fact that MCPS wants to increase URM participation, and the fact they as a group score lower, well..

If I meet a black person who went to an Ivy league, I wouldn't make the assumption that the black person scored low on their SATs, but I do know that statistically, an Asian student has to score much higher than every other group to get in.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 13:58     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Anonymous wrote:
The only way to increase URM participation is to change the admissions criteria since test scores by themselves weren't going up. And as a group, they don't score that high on MAP or PARCC either. And never did I say that individually URM aren't smart. The kid with the highest MAP-M score in my DC's school was a black girl. If she wanted to get into a magnet program, I would hope that they look at her scores and she gets admitted. But, statistically, she is not the norm unfortunately.


That is factually incorrect.

Statistically, no kid with the highest MAP-M score is the norm. By definition.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 13:57     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Is it racist to state a fact, that the URM group as a whole scores lower? Even MCPS has acknowledged that. If as a group they score lower, how else do you increase their participation if test scores were a huge part of the admissions criteria?


Yes, it is racist to state that URM as a whole scores lower, therefore providing more information and using tests that don't tip in favor of test prep somehow means that whatever URM is chosen for a program means that the child does not somehow deserve to be in the class or cannot otherwise thrive without "watering down" the program.

Stating a fact is now considered racist. I guess MCPS is racist then. Good to know.


Read the whole sentence, not just the bolded part.

If you said, "Members of group X run more slowly, therefore if members of group X make the track team, it can only be because standards for the track team were lowered," I would say that you don't understand statistics. If you said, "Black kids as a group have lower test scores, therefore if more black kids make it into the magnet program, it can only be because standards for the magnet program were lowered," I would say that you don't understand statistics and also have racist beliefs about the intelligence of black people.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 13:55     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Well, one barrier would be the reliance on a high test score, so let's look at other factors, ie, "holistic" approach.

Why would MCPS commission a $1mil+ study which recommended "broadening the definition of gifted" and "increasing URM participation" and not follow the recommendations?


So you think that a single test score, on a single day, is a better measure of a student's ability? I don't.

You evidently think that the only way to increase participation by black, poor, and Latino kids is to admit unqualified kids. For this to be true, the magnets would already have to have been including ALL of the qualified black, poor, and Latino kids. Do you think that the magnets were doing this? I don't.

MCPS is following the recommendations of the Metis study -- by trying to remove the barriers that were keeping out qualified black, poor, and Latino kids.

By the way, I really hope that you don't have any kids who will be admitted to a magnet program under the new processes, or, if you do, that you have nothing to do with the black or Latino kids in your kids' classes. Yes, I'm assuming that you're not black or Latino.

The only way to increase URM participation is to change the admissions criteria since test scores by themselves weren't going up. And as a group, they don't score that high on MAP or PARCC either. And never did I say that individually URM aren't smart. The kid with the highest MAP-M score in my DC's school was a black girl. If she wanted to get into a magnet program, I would hope that they look at her scores and she gets admitted. But, statistically, she is not the norm unfortunately.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 13:54     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:How does lowering the admission bar for magnets close the achievement gap? If this is what MCPS is doing, how will they measure it?


There is no evidence that MCPS is lowering the admission bar for magnets. And even if MCPS were lowering the admission bar for magnets, it wouldn't close the achievement gap. Or even lessen it.

There is an idee fixe among a group of posters on DCUM that MCPS is trying to close the achievement gap by ruining the education of white and Asian-American kids, and many of the posts on this thread are a reflection of this.


+1


Yes. It is almost guaranteed that when this discussion comes up, it will inevitably devolve into a handful of (dare I say RACIST) posters declaring that the "Asians" or "Jews" or "Whites" are being held back or not given a good education due to some trumped up pablum about having to "water down the standards" for the AAs and Hispanics. No one is watering down anything - 100 spots for 3000 test takers - I guarantee you that the people who are chosen, regardless of skin color or ethnicity, will be very, very bright. But, if you are so worried - since there is a strong concentration in the Western part of the county of certain ethnicities, perhaps you can just live there and be with your own "super-bright" cohort - no need to have 45 minute bus ride - you got all the super-bright kids in your own backyard.


I tend to agree. (I mean I do agree with everything you said -- but I do feel this thread has some racist undertones).

Is it racist to state a fact, that the URM group as a whole scores lower? Even MCPS has acknowledged that. If as a group they score lower, how else do you increase their participation if test scores were a huge part of the admissions criteria?


Yes, it is racist to state that URM as a whole scores lower, therefore providing more information and using tests that don't tip in favor of test prep somehow means that whatever URM is chosen for a program means that the child does not somehow deserve to be in the class or cannot otherwise thrive without "watering down" the program.

Stating a fact is now considered racist. I guess MCPS is racist then. Good to know.



I don't think the fact part of your statement is the racist part -- its the assumption that the only URM that get into HGC somehow aren't qualified to be there and are only there because they somehow "lowered standards"
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 13:51     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:How does lowering the admission bar for magnets close the achievement gap? If this is what MCPS is doing, how will they measure it?


There is no evidence that MCPS is lowering the admission bar for magnets. And even if MCPS were lowering the admission bar for magnets, it wouldn't close the achievement gap. Or even lessen it.

There is an idee fixe among a group of posters on DCUM that MCPS is trying to close the achievement gap by ruining the education of white and Asian-American kids, and many of the posts on this thread are a reflection of this.


+1


Yes. It is almost guaranteed that when this discussion comes up, it will inevitably devolve into a handful of (dare I say RACIST) posters declaring that the "Asians" or "Jews" or "Whites" are being held back or not given a good education due to some trumped up pablum about having to "water down the standards" for the AAs and Hispanics. No one is watering down anything - 100 spots for 3000 test takers - I guarantee you that the people who are chosen, regardless of skin color or ethnicity, will be very, very bright. But, if you are so worried - since there is a strong concentration in the Western part of the county of certain ethnicities, perhaps you can just live there and be with your own "super-bright" cohort - no need to have 45 minute bus ride - you got all the super-bright kids in your own backyard.


I tend to agree. (I mean I do agree with everything you said -- but I do feel this thread has some racist undertones).

Is it racist to state a fact, that the URM group as a whole scores lower? Even MCPS has acknowledged that. If as a group they score lower, how else do you increase their participation if test scores were a huge part of the admissions criteria?


Yes, it is racist to state that URM as a whole scores lower, therefore providing more information and using tests that don't tip in favor of test prep somehow means that whatever URM is chosen for a program means that the child does not somehow deserve to be in the class or cannot otherwise thrive without "watering down" the program.

Stating a fact is now considered racist. I guess MCPS is racist then. Good to know.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 13:49     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:How does lowering the admission bar for magnets close the achievement gap? If this is what MCPS is doing, how will they measure it?


There is no evidence that MCPS is lowering the admission bar for magnets. And even if MCPS were lowering the admission bar for magnets, it wouldn't close the achievement gap. Or even lessen it.

There is an idee fixe among a group of posters on DCUM that MCPS is trying to close the achievement gap by ruining the education of white and Asian-American kids, and many of the posts on this thread are a reflection of this.


+1


Yes. It is almost guaranteed that when this discussion comes up, it will inevitably devolve into a handful of (dare I say RACIST) posters declaring that the "Asians" or "Jews" or "Whites" are being held back or not given a good education due to some trumped up pablum about having to "water down the standards" for the AAs and Hispanics. No one is watering down anything - 100 spots for 3000 test takers - I guarantee you that the people who are chosen, regardless of skin color or ethnicity, will be very, very bright. But, if you are so worried - since there is a strong concentration in the Western part of the county of certain ethnicities, perhaps you can just live there and be with your own "super-bright" cohort - no need to have 45 minute bus ride - you got all the super-bright kids in your own backyard.


I tend to agree. (I mean I do agree with everything you said -- but I do feel this thread has some racist undertones).

Is it racist to state a fact, that the URM group as a whole scores lower? Even MCPS has acknowledged that. If as a group they score lower, how else do you increase their participation if test scores were a huge part of the admissions criteria?


Yes, it is racist to state that URM as a whole scores lower, therefore providing more information and using tests that don't tip in favor of test prep somehow means that whatever URM is chosen for a program means that the child does not somehow deserve to be in the class or cannot otherwise thrive without "watering down" the program.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 13:46     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

I agree with you, but I think MCPS does not. Why is there so much focus on ‘closing the achievement gap’?

What do you think MCPS says when it states that as their goal? It means that they feel that Black and Latino kids are not performing well. That’s where people make the assumption that Black and Hispanic kids are lagging behind!


MCPS agrees too. MCPS commissioned the Metis report. MCPS is acting on the results in the Metis report. Have you read the Metis report?

Here is an example of a barrier to entry (which is not in the Metis report, as far as I know): if you're in the upcounty and you're applying to a high school application magnet, you have to go to Poolesville HS on a Saturday to take the tests. The only way to get to Poolesville on a Saturday is by car. If your family doesn't have a car, it's much harder to get to Poolesville to take the test. Poor families are less likely to have a car or have access to a car. So the Poolesville testing site is a barrier to entry for kids who are bright and poor. (And, as we all know, there is a strong correlation between income and race/ethnicity in Montgomery County.)

How will a bright kid who couldn't get to Poolesville on a Saturday for the application test, be helped by mandatory K-12 tutoring for students who are behind?

If MCPS moved the testing site from Poolesville HS to Seneca Valley HS, would you call that a social engineering technique that will ruin the high school magnet programs?


Doesn't explain why they changed the testing to HGC, which is what this thread is about, not HS or MS magnets.


Extrapolate.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 13:45     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Anonymous wrote:
Is it racist to state a fact, that the URM group as a whole scores lower? Even MCPS has acknowledged that. If as a group they score lower, how else do you increase their participation if test scores were a huge part of the admissions criteria?


The magnet programs admit individual students, not groups.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 13:44     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Anonymous wrote:
Well, one barrier would be the reliance on a high test score, so let's look at other factors, ie, "holistic" approach.

Why would MCPS commission a $1mil+ study which recommended "broadening the definition of gifted" and "increasing URM participation" and not follow the recommendations?


So you think that a single test score, on a single day, is a better measure of a student's ability? I don't.

You evidently think that the only way to increase participation by black, poor, and Latino kids is to admit unqualified kids. For this to be true, the magnets would already have to have been including ALL of the qualified black, poor, and Latino kids. Do you think that the magnets were doing this? I don't.

MCPS is following the recommendations of the Metis study -- by trying to remove the barriers that were keeping out qualified black, poor, and Latino kids.

By the way, I really hope that you don't have any kids who will be admitted to a magnet program under the new processes, or, if you do, that you have nothing to do with the black or Latino kids in your kids' classes. Yes, I'm assuming that you're not black or Latino.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 13:38     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

I agree with you, but I think MCPS does not. Why is there so much focus on ‘closing the achievement gap’?

What do you think MCPS says when it states that as their goal? It means that they feel that Black and Latino kids are not performing well. That’s where people make the assumption that Black and Hispanic kids are lagging behind!


MCPS agrees too. MCPS commissioned the Metis report. MCPS is acting on the results in the Metis report. Have you read the Metis report?

Here is an example of a barrier to entry (which is not in the Metis report, as far as I know): if you're in the upcounty and you're applying to a high school application magnet, you have to go to Poolesville HS on a Saturday to take the tests. The only way to get to Poolesville on a Saturday is by car. If your family doesn't have a car, it's much harder to get to Poolesville to take the test. Poor families are less likely to have a car or have access to a car. So the Poolesville testing site is a barrier to entry for kids who are bright and poor. (And, as we all know, there is a strong correlation between income and race/ethnicity in Montgomery County.)

How will a bright kid who couldn't get to Poolesville on a Saturday for the application test, be helped by mandatory K-12 tutoring for students who are behind?

If MCPS moved the testing site from Poolesville HS to Seneca Valley HS, would you call that a social engineering technique that will ruin the high school magnet programs?




Doesn't explain why they changed the testing to HGC, which is what this thread is about, not HS or MS magnets.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 13:37     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:How does lowering the admission bar for magnets close the achievement gap? If this is what MCPS is doing, how will they measure it?


There is no evidence that MCPS is lowering the admission bar for magnets. And even if MCPS were lowering the admission bar for magnets, it wouldn't close the achievement gap. Or even lessen it.

There is an idee fixe among a group of posters on DCUM that MCPS is trying to close the achievement gap by ruining the education of white and Asian-American kids, and many of the posts on this thread are a reflection of this.


+1


Yes. It is almost guaranteed that when this discussion comes up, it will inevitably devolve into a handful of (dare I say RACIST) posters declaring that the "Asians" or "Jews" or "Whites" are being held back or not given a good education due to some trumped up pablum about having to "water down the standards" for the AAs and Hispanics. No one is watering down anything - 100 spots for 3000 test takers - I guarantee you that the people who are chosen, regardless of skin color or ethnicity, will be very, very bright. But, if you are so worried - since there is a strong concentration in the Western part of the county of certain ethnicities, perhaps you can just live there and be with your own "super-bright" cohort - no need to have 45 minute bus ride - you got all the super-bright kids in your own backyard.


I tend to agree. (I mean I do agree with everything you said -- but I do feel this thread has some racist undertones).

Is it racist to state a fact, that the URM group as a whole scores lower? Even MCPS has acknowledged that. If as a group they score lower, how else do you increase their participation if test scores were a huge part of the admissions criteria?
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2017 13:36     Subject: Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:How does lowering the admission bar for magnets close the achievement gap? If this is what MCPS is doing, how will they measure it?


There is no evidence that MCPS is lowering the admission bar for magnets. And even if MCPS were lowering the admission bar for magnets, it wouldn't close the achievement gap. Or even lessen it.

There is an idee fixe among a group of posters on DCUM that MCPS is trying to close the achievement gap by ruining the education of white and Asian-American kids, and many of the posts on this thread are a reflection of this.


+1


Yes. It is almost guaranteed that when this discussion comes up, it will inevitably devolve into a handful of (dare I say RACIST) posters declaring that the "Asians" or "Jews" or "Whites" are being held back or not given a good education due to some trumped up pablum about having to "water down the standards" for the AAs and Hispanics. No one is watering down anything - 100 spots for 3000 test takers - I guarantee you that the people who are chosen, regardless of skin color or ethnicity, will be very, very bright. But, if you are so worried - since there is a strong concentration in the Western part of the county of certain ethnicities, perhaps you can just live there and be with your own "super-bright" cohort - no need to have 45 minute bus ride - you got all the super-bright kids in your own backyard.



+1