Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God gave humans 'good dreams'

" I call good dreams: I mean those queer stories scattered all through the heathen religions ..." See more here: http://home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/pagan4.html

About why I believe in God? Because I believe - in the bones of my bones- in absolute Good and Evil (not socially constructed) and without a God is hard (impossible) to justify that.

Why Christianity? Because it is the only religion I know of that at least claims that God came down to suffer with us.

About evil& suffering-the only really big argument agaist God IMO- if God is big enough to be mad at ( for not stopping evil), he is also big enough to have some reason for it. It helps that, as stated above, according to Christianity, He came down to take a share of it, so it's not like he was all talk.

And if we don't appreciate it, he sends us to burn in hell for ETERNITY

I subscribe to the idea that we are all going to be with God, if we want to. Some will prefer Hell to God. Read 'The Great Divorce' to see what I mean.

Anonymous wrote:I think you believe in God so that you don't have to take Xanax every day!

according to Karl Marx, yes!

I think you believe in God so that you don't have to take Xanax every day!

Anonymous wrote:I AM.

And some day it will be "I was . . . "

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot understand why people who are otherwise very smart and logical people believe in god. The idea of a god has never made sense to me, even as people in my family taught me about god and religion. I exclude the religious nut jobs from this question and want to address Those who are educated and feel they have a good deal of common sense in other areas. What makes you believe? Is there any LOGICAL reason behind your beliefs?

Maybe because those people smart and logical? I am educated (three degrees), speak 3 languages fluently and two at the basic conversational level. I can't see how any educated person can deny the very existence of God? Before you accept or reject the idea of God, read his word, the Bible. You can't reject Plato or Machiavelli without reading at least several of their works? Sometimes you have to re-read it to understand, right? Sometimes you even need to talk to the Philosophy professor to accept their position (or not to accept). Try the same approach with God. Educate yourself before you reject it (not what your family taught you about religion, because God has nothing to do with religion). Read his word, and re-read it. Talk to people with degree in theology if you don't understand certain things or with pastor you trust. Maybe then it will make some sense for you.

Sorry, but it's hard to believe an educated person's recommendation to believe in God is to read "his word, the Bible" A lot of the bible is gruesome, a lot of it doesn't add up and all of it was written 2,000 thousand or so years ago. Carefully reading the bible has made a lot of people atheists.

I'm another person you've been arguing with, and I too am highly educated, including a graduate degree from one of the top three schools in the country. I, too, speak several languages fluently, although not quite as many as PP: I speak 2 languages fluently, one language near-fluently, and I have taken college-level courses in two additional languages.

I think some of the frustration with your posting style is the silliness of the arguments, which stems partly from ignorance about even the most basic tenets of Christianity. You also don't seem to know much about philosophy in general -- I'm the poster who quoted Berkeley at you, and you were unable to respond to it.

I have educated myself widely on my religion. I have read all of the New Testament, much of the Old, and many theologians including from the Jesus Seminar, and lots on the historical Jesus.

I still find Jesus' message of love, tolerance and peace compelling for all ages, including the 21st century when we're so interconnected and war is just a red button away. I don't find anything objectionable in the gospels about the treatment of minorities, women, or gays, except for a few passages in Paul and, of course, Paul was not Jesus. But most of all, the message to love your enemies is an extraordinarily powerful message, particularly today.

sounds like you've been arguing with at least two different people without realizing it. I am very familiar with the tenets of Christianity and the Jesus seminar and studies of the Historical Jesus. I understand how educated people could know all that and still have different takes on it. I also understand how Jesus' message of love, etc, is compelling. That doesn't make the Bible any less gruesome or dated or dubious and it certainly doesn't make Jesus divine or the son of god. It suggests that you have compartmentalized the parts of Christianity that appeal to you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot understand why people who are otherwise very smart and logical people believe in god. The idea of a god has never made sense to me, even as people in my family taught me about god and religion. I exclude the religious nut jobs from this question and want to address Those who are educated and feel they have a good deal of common sense in other areas. What makes you believe? Is there any LOGICAL reason behind your beliefs?

Maybe because those people smart and logical? I am educated (three degrees), speak 3 languages fluently and two at the basic conversational level. I can't see how any educated person can deny the very existence of God? Before you accept or reject the idea of God, read his word, the Bible. You can't reject Plato or Machiavelli without reading at least several of their works? Sometimes you have to re-read it to understand, right? Sometimes you even need to talk to the Philosophy professor to accept their position (or not to accept). Try the same approach with God. Educate yourself before you reject it (not what your family taught you about religion, because God has nothing to do with religion). Read his word, and re-read it. Talk to people with degree in theology if you don't understand certain things or with pastor you trust. Maybe then it will make some sense for you.

Sorry, but it's hard to believe an educated person's recommendation to believe in God is to read "his word, the Bible" A lot of the bible is gruesome, a lot of it doesn't add up and all of it was written 2,000 thousand or so years ago. Carefully reading the bible has made a lot of people atheists.

I'm another person you've been arguing with, and I too am highly educated, including a graduate degree from one of the top three schools in the country. I, too, speak several languages fluently, although not quite as many as PP: I speak 2 languages fluently, one language near-fluently, and I have taken college-level courses in two additional languages.

I think some of the frustration with your posting style is the silliness of the arguments, which stems partly from ignorance about even the most basic tenets of Christianity. You also don't seem to know much about philosophy in general -- I'm the poster who quoted Berkeley at you, and you were unable to respond to it.

I have educated myself widely on my religion. I have read all of the New Testament, much of the Old, and many theologians including from the Jesus Seminar, and lots on the historical Jesus.

I still find Jesus' message of love, tolerance and peace compelling for all ages, including the 21st century when we're so interconnected and war is just a red button away. I don't find anything objectionable in the gospels about the treatment of minorities, women, or gays, except for a few passages in Paul and, of course, Paul was not Jesus. But most of all, the message to love your enemies is an extraordinarily powerful message, particularly today.

I AM.

Anonymous wrote:God gave humans 'good dreams'

" I call good dreams: I mean those queer stories scattered all through the heathen religions ..." See more here: http://home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/pagan4.html

About why I believe in God? Because I believe - in the bones of my bones- in absolute Good and Evil (not socially constructed) and without a God is hard (impossible) to justify that.

Why Christianity? Because it is the only religion I know of that at least claims that God came down to suffer with us.

About evil& suffering-the only really big argument agaist God IMO- if God is big enough to be mad at ( for not stopping evil), he is also big enough to have some reason for it. It helps that, as stated above, according to Christianity, He came down to take a share of it, so it's not like he was all talk.

And if we don't appreciate it, he sends us to burn in hell for ETERNITY

God gave humans 'good dreams'

" I call good dreams: I mean those queer stories scattered all through the heathen religions ..." See more here: http://home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/pagan4.html

About why I believe in God? Because I believe - in the bones of my bones- in absolute Good and Evil (not socially constructed) and without a God is hard (impossible) to justify that.

Why Christianity? Because it is the only religion I know of that at least claims that God came down to suffer with us.

About evil& suffering-the only really big argument agaist God IMO- if God is big enough to be mad at ( for not stopping evil), he is also big enough to have some reason for it. It helps that, as stated above, according to Christianity, He came down to take a share of it, so it's not like he was all talk.

What accounts do we have of Jesus beyond the NT?

Flavius Josephus?
Even his is debatable.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot understand why people who are otherwise very smart and logical people believe in god. The idea of a god has never made sense to me, even as people in my family taught me about god and religion. I exclude the religious nut jobs from this question and want to address Those who are educated and feel they have a good deal of common sense in other areas. What makes you believe? Is there any LOGICAL reason behind your beliefs?

Maybe because those people smart and logical? I am educated (three degrees), speak 3 languages fluently and two at the basic conversational level. I can't see how any educated person can deny the very existence of God? Before you accept or reject the idea of God, read his word, the Bible. You can't reject Plato or Machiavelli without reading at least several of their works? Sometimes you have to re-read it to understand, right? Sometimes you even need to talk to the Philosophy professor to accept their position (or not to accept). Try the same approach with God. Educate yourself before you reject it (not what your family taught you about religion, because God has nothing to do with religion). Read his word, and re-read it. Talk to people with degree in theology if you don't understand certain things or with pastor you trust. Maybe then it will make some sense for you.

Sorry, but it's hard to believe an educated person's recommendation to believe in God is to read "his word, the Bible" A lot of the bible is gruesome, a lot of it doesn't add up and all of it was written 2,000 thousand or so years ago. Carefully reading the bible has made a lot of people atheists.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot understand why people who are otherwise very smart and logical people believe in god. The idea of a god has never made sense to me, even as people in my family taught me about god and religion. I exclude the religious nut jobs from this question and want to address Those who are educated and feel they have a good deal of common sense in other areas. What makes you believe? Is there any LOGICAL reason behind your beliefs?

Maybe because those people smart and logical? I am educated (three degrees), speak 3 languages fluently and two at the basic conversational level. I can't see how any educated person can deny the very existence of God? Before you accept or reject the idea of God, read his word, the Bible. You can't reject Plato or Machiavelli without reading at least several of their works? Sometimes you have to re-read it to understand, right? Sometimes you even need to talk to the Philosophy professor to accept their position (or not to accept). Try the same approach with God. Educate yourself before you reject it (not what your family taught you about religion, because God has nothing to do with religion). Read his word, and re-read it. Talk to people with degree in theology if you don't understand certain things or with pastor you trust. Maybe then it will make some sense for you.

The idea of god has everything to do with religion as defined by geography. While the Qur'an and the Bible were supposedly "inspired" by the same god, the prophets (Muhammad and Jesus) were very much ruled by the culture. Sharia Law and Judaic beliefs are very similar, as both groups of people shared the same space. Christians, persecuted at the time, hid and started to do "their own thing."

Furthermore, if you dig deeply, you'll find that religions stem from pagan beliefs. the Romans? stole beliefs from the Greeks . . . polytheism
Examine the patterns of death and resurrection in pagan belief systems. How is Jesus any different?

And have we truly moved away from polytheism? The Christian God has Jesus and the Holy Spirit - three separate entities if you follow the trinity. Yahweh had angels, did "he" not? all lesser entities similar to Zeus and the lesser gods

It's all about power - and using religion to scare the masses.

Simply reading the bible will not offer you answers. The answers are found in researching how religion evolved over the ages. And what has religion done for us? the Crusades? the Israeli-Palestinian dispute? Should I go on and on?

Finally, why is everyone so fearful of the connection btw our "God" and the pagan gods?

So during the next big summer storm, thank Zeus or Jupiter.

Anonymous wrote:I cannot understand why people who are otherwise very smart and logical people believe in god. The idea of a god has never made sense to me, even as people in my family taught me about god and religion. I exclude the religious nut jobs from this question and want to address Those who are educated and feel they have a good deal of common sense in other areas. What makes you believe? Is there any LOGICAL reason behind your beliefs?

Maybe because those people smart and logical? I am educated (three degrees), speak 3 languages fluently and two at the basic conversational level. I can't see how any educated person can deny the very existence of God? Before you accept or reject the idea of God, read his word, the Bible. You can't reject Plato or Machiavelli without reading at least several of their works? Sometimes you have to re-read it to understand, right? Sometimes you even need to talk to the Philosophy professor to accept their position (or not to accept). Try the same approach with God. Educate yourself before you reject it (not what your family taught you about religion, because God has nothing to do with religion). Read his word, and re-read it. Talk to people with degree in theology if you don't understand certain things or with pastor you trust. Maybe then it will make some sense for you.

Original PP--I think I was feeling charitable. I fleetingly thought that perhaps atheist OP was thinking the pagan conspiracy was actually hatched in an outpost of the Roman Empire in Britain. But you are right--the math is ludicrous.

Anonymous wrote:
That's the best you can do? What about Mithras the Persian god born on Dec 25? and Osiris, who rose from the death?

As for sun/son, what about red/reed -- some say Moses actually crossed the very shallow Reed sea and people confused it with Red, but that would only work in English -- but even English takes us back a few centuries, when some of the myths could have been generated.

Different PP here. This gets my vote for "most ludicrous" because of the humongous math fail.

So, um, the "myth" that Moses crossed the Red Sea was created by English speakers a few centuries ago, you say? OK, let's establish that English as we know it was created very gradually in the centuries after the Norman Conquest, evolving through Chaucer and Shakespeare with a great vowel change along the way (Pirate English is the old vowels.) So you could plausibly say that English is "several centuries" old.

Even so, this can't possibly explain a story that's been circulating for several thousand years.