Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting piece, by a Muslim, on the disconnect that results when non-Muslims ask Muslims about Quranic verses. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

Excellent article.

Yes by this and many other measures I am an Islamophobe. I have been negative on religion since reading the old testament and learning about a hateful and jealous god.

I just dont get it.

Seems like Quran is the same repetition and message, just a different prophet, but yet it is even worse, in that the leader was a warlord general and very violent. The Quran is supposedly the word of God, is perfect, yet contains hate filled verses used to justify murder of innocents that think differently. It advocates mixing government and religion. And people think Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with the Quran and the religion. That it is a cultural thing. How can people think that someone reads this stuff over and over and it has no impact.

From article, have you experienced this ...

(3) The Muslim responds by defending these verses as Allah's word -- he insists that they have been quoted "out of context," have been misinterpreted, are meant as metaphor, or that they may even have been mistranslated.

(4) Despite being shown multiple translations, or told that some of these passages (like similar passages in other holy books) are questionable in any context, the Muslim insists on his/her defense of the Scripture.

So Muslims say your interpretations of something is wrong and this is what they believe. Now you say they are wrong for believe that for decades because it does not follow you agenda....that seems very ignorant to me.

Let's do that last para again:

Bottom line: How does it promote understanding about what's going on in many moderate Muslim societies today, to leave people with the unmoderated statement that "Islam offers equality to women (again, a statement that one of you actually made), which is actually misleading in many contexts. And further, to claim that anybody who questions or doubts your statements about "Islam offers equality to women" is an "Islamophobe"?

I'm not afraid of the moderator. I disagree with him that defending underdogs means allowing any kind of BS you want to post to go completely unquestioned.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting piece, by a Muslim, on the disconnect that results when non-Muslims ask Muslims about Quranic verses. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

I thought this article mapped the DCUM discussion pretty closely.
Muslima: Islam treats captives well and it treats women equally.
Various posters: but the Quran says XYZ and the Quran is the word of God so it can't be ignored.
Muslima: I meant, the Quran treats women with equal justice with an emphasis on society's needs trumping individual needs.
... Long digression on the relative roles of the Quran and sharia (interestingly, another pp here just wrote that sharia is fundamental to being a Muslim, while a different Muslim poster here says she doesn't give it great authority)
... Another long digression on whether Muslima and the other poster speak for Islam, or whether they are engaged in a conversion effort that involves some white-washing, or whether their Islam is as valid, or more valid because it's personal and people are entitled to that, than al-Azhar's Islam.

Cue insults from both sides.

Should we talk about why you got spanked by the moderator?

The moderator apparently shares your view, that you are entitled to represent all of Islam with statements like "Islam treats captives well" or "Islam offers equality to women" (both things you and Muslima have said without any further qualifications or explanations, until you were challenged), and that bringing up Quranic verses and sharia that millions of other Muslims follow constitutes bigotry. I'm happy for you that it gives you endless opportunities for gloating little victory laps.

That's the moderator's prerogative. However I and others here disagree that you're entitled to speak for all of Islam, mostly because you've been caught being ignorant of your own holy book several times (by another PP, not me) and you've also been caught flat-out wrong several times (converts, treating captives well, women, just to mention a few examples).

It's also troubling that you call anybody who doesn't agree with you, for whatever reason (providing new evidence, disagreeing on the beauty of women's roles), an Islamophobe.

It's also troubling that you started several different threads accusing Christianity (but not Judaism, for whatever reason) of promoting polygamy, violence and homophobia, but you expect perfect respect for your own religion. Do you have a double standard?

To be clear, you are absolutely entitled to have your own version of Islam and to represent it as such. What I and others find troubling is that you represent your very particular Islam as the same Islam followed by millions of even moderate Muslims.

Bottom line: How does it promote understanding about what's going on in many moderate Muslim societies today, to leave people with the unmoderated statement that "Islam offers equality to women (again, a statement that one of you actually made) is actually misleading in many contexts. anybody who questions or doubts this is an Islamophobe"?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting piece, by a Muslim, on the disconnect that results when non-Muslims ask Muslims about Quranic verses. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

I thought this article mapped the DCUM discussion pretty closely.
Muslima: Islam treats captives well and it treats women equally.
Various posters: but the Quran says XYZ and the Quran is the word of God so it can't be ignored.
Muslima: I meant, the Quran treats women with equal justice with an emphasis on society's needs trumping individual needs.
... Long digression on the relative roles of the Quran and sharia (interestingly, another pp here just wrote that sharia is fundamental to being a Muslim, while a different Muslim poster here says she doesn't give it great authority)
... Another long digression on whether Muslima and the other poster speak for Islam, or whether they are engaged in a conversion effort that involves some white-washing, or whether their Islam is as valid, or more valid because it's personal and people are entitled to that, than al-Azhar's Islam.

Cue insults from both sides.

Should we talk about why you got spanked by the moderator?

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I am a christian from pakistan. Our family fled in late 90s due to the muslim violence. I was a teenager. The muslims would kill anyone that was different. We were treated like animals.[/quote]
Don't worry, they are still doing it, but they are running out of Christians to kill, so they are turning to Shia.[/quote]

Shia aren't Muslims. It's a completely different faith. They read the same Quran but fail to adhere to the sunnah ( sayings, teachings, actions, etc) of the prophet Muhammad (SAW). They speak very ill of his wives and companions. They are viewed as the best Muslims to ever walk the earth after the holy prophets so in doing that they really cannot be look at a real Muslims.. You also cannot group an extremely small amount of people into an entire faith of over 2 billion people, seriously...[/quote]

I am not Shia but consider Shia Muslims. If someone calls themselves Muslim, but you don't think they are, it isn't up to you to determine the truth. Leave it to Allah. Anyone who believes in the oneness of God, all the prophets from Adam to Muhammad, existence of heaven, hell, Day of Judgment, angels, is a Muslim, be they drunkard or womanizer, believe in other prophets that came afterward, it does not matter. Allah decides on their iman, and who can enter the gates of Heaven. It may be that a drunkard Shia is better than a ritual adhering Sunni because the drunkard Shia puts all his trust in Allah.

Anonymous wrote:Interesting piece, by a Muslim, on the disconnect that results when non-Muslims ask Muslims about Quranic verses. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

I thought this article mapped the DCUM discussion pretty closely.
Muslima: Islam treats captives well and it treats women equally.
Various posters: but the Quran says XYZ and the Quran is the word of God so it can't be ignored.
Muslima: I meant, the Quran treats women with equal justice with an emphasis on society's needs trumping individual needs.
... Long digression on the relative roles of the Quran and sharia (interestingly, another pp here just wrote that sharia is fundamental to being a Muslim, while a different Muslim poster here says she doesn't give it great authority)
... Another long digression on whether Muslima and the other poster speak for Islam, or whether they are engaged in a conversion effort that involves some white-washing, or whether their Islam is as valid, or more valid because it's personal and people are entitled to that, than al-Azhar's Islam.

Cue insults from both sides.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I am a christian from pakistan. Our family fled in late 90s due to the muslim violence. I was a teenager. The muslims would kill anyone that was different. We were treated like animals.[/quote]
Don't worry, they are still doing it, but they are running out of Christians to kill, so they are turning to Shia.[/quote]

Shia aren't Muslims. It's a completely different faith. They read the same Quran but fail to adhere to the sunnah ( sayings, teachings, actions, etc) of the prophet Muhammad (SAW). They speak very ill of his wives and companions. They are viewed as the best Muslims to ever walk the earth after the holy prophets so in doing that they really cannot be look at a real Muslims.. You also cannot group an extremely small amount of people into an entire faith of over 2 billion people, seriously...

Muslima is a farce. Or a liar. Her posts don't ring true. It's up to the moderator to sift through "Her" posts.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:You are the same poster who follows me at every corner asking where I live, lol. I have already answered you, many times but you don't believe I live where I said I do, I won't repeat myself, so I guess my location shall remain a mystery for you. Don't even know why it's relevant, do you ask any other poster where they are posting from? Maybe if you're nice, I might send you a postcard one of these days Happy Friday~

How was your Eid, Muslima? Alhamdulillah I attended a mosque near my family. There were four different Eid salat times, each one with 1500 or so attendees. Just 30 yrs ago, we barely filled the praying room! We've come a loong way! Hope your Eid was great.
- the other Muslim ?

Eid was great alhamdulilah! I always love the 2 Eids and getting together with the community. We've definitely come a long way, I guess you realize that even more so at Eid where people come out and socialize, so it was good that it was on a Saturday. Glad you had a good Eid as well! Looking forward to Ashura inshaAllah

Muslima, other than fasting, do you do anything else for Ashura? Are you Shia Muslim? I am sunni but my husband's family is shia.

By the way, did you see Ben Affleck going off on Bill Maher? I have newfound respect for him for standing up to such ugly comments.

And this article as well as your comments are why Muslims know it is hopeless to explain anything. If the explanation you hear is inadequate for you, then its time for each to end the discussion. Its time.

Anonymous wrote:Interesting piece, by a Muslim, on the disconnect that results when non-Muslims ask Muslims about Quranic verses. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

Excellent article.

Yes by this and many other measures I am an Islamophobe. I have been negative on religion since reading the old testament and learning about a hateful and jealous god.

I just dont get it.

Seems like Quran is the same repetition and message, just a different prophet, but yet it is even worse, in that the leader was a warlord general and very violent. The Quran is supposedly the word of God, is perfect, yet contains hate filled verses used to justify murder of innocents that think differently. It advocates mixing government and religion. And people think Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with the Quran and the religion. That it is a cultural thing. How can people think that someone reads this stuff over and over and it has no impact.

From article, have you experienced this ...

(3) The Muslim responds by defending these verses as Allah's word -- he insists that they have been quoted "out of context," have been misinterpreted, are meant as metaphor, or that they may even have been mistranslated.

(4) Despite being shown multiple translations, or told that some of these passages (like similar passages in other holy books) are questionable in any context, the Muslim insists on his/her defense of the Scripture.

Interesting piece, by a Muslim, on the disconnect that results when non-Muslims ask Muslims about Quranic verses. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:You are the same poster who follows me at every corner asking where I live, lol. I have already answered you, many times but you don't believe I live where I said I do, I won't repeat myself, so I guess my location shall remain a mystery for you. Don't even know why it's relevant, do you ask any other poster where they are posting from? Maybe if you're nice, I might send you a postcard one of these days Happy Friday~

How was your Eid, Muslima? Alhamdulillah I attended a mosque near my family. There were four different Eid salat times, each one with 1500 or so attendees. Just 30 yrs ago, we barely filled the praying room! We've come a loong way! Hope your Eid was great.
- the other Muslim ?

Eid was great alhamdulilah! I always love the 2 Eids and getting together with the community. We've definitely come a long way, I guess you realize that even more so at Eid where people come out and socialize, so it was good that it was on a Saturday. Glad you had a good Eid as well! Looking forward to Ashura inshaAllah

Muslima wrote:You are the same poster who follows me at every corner asking where I live, lol. I have already answered you, many times but you don't believe I live where I said I do, I won't repeat myself, so I guess my location shall remain a mystery for you. Don't even know why it's relevant, do you ask any other poster where they are posting from? Maybe if you're nice, I might send you a postcard one of these days Happy Friday~

How was your Eid, Muslima? Alhamdulillah I attended a mosque near my family. There were four different Eid salat times, each one with 1500 or so attendees. Just 30 yrs ago, we barely filled the praying room! We've come a loong way! Hope your Eid was great.
- the other Muslim ?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not sure why it would so incredulous for Muslima to live here in the US. Her views are typical for a US muslim.

She referred to "my side of the world." That's why a few of us have asked.

(Also: incredible, not incredulous.)

Why did you take that literally?