Anonymous wrote:Sahi Muslim No. 4206:

“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, [b]Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and [/b]she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

Okay we need to break this down because what you're doing is a bit deceptive:

1) You FIRST said it was from the Quran. Now you admit it's not from the Quran but rather from Sahi Muslim 4206. Hadith were the sayings of the prophet as remembered by people. Hadith were collected over 200 yrs after the death of prophet Muhammad. Some are authentic and are valuable in providing context for Quranic principles, but some may be completely false. For example, Sahih Muslim also has numerous wacky hadith about the Prophet's sweat being so precious that his mother saved it in a bottle, about his body smelling fragrant and other complete nonsense like that. Yet you still chose this hadith as an authoritative source to make your point. Why?

2) The Quran is the true word of God and has greater authority than any hadith. Yet the Quran NEVER sanctions stoning adulterers or fornicators to death. The punishment as described in the Quran for adultery is flogging, as evidenced in Sura 24, verse 2.

3) Check out www.gotquestions.org, a Christian evangelical web site that provides the FULL story behind Jesus' "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" comment. You deceptively provided the abbreviated version of this story. Here's the full story of where Jesus' statement came from:

Jesus' statement is found in John 8:1-11. Jesus was teaching in the temple when the scribes and Pharisees brought to him a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery, and they asked him if she should be stoned as required by the Law of Moses. However, they cared nothing about this woman, they were only interested in using her to trap Jesus. If he told them to stone her, they could claim he was not the Savior. If he told them to set the woman free, they could claim he did not hold to the Law of Moses. If he said nothing, they could claim he lacked wisdom. Jesus did not answer immediately. Finally he said, in essence, "Go ahead and stone her because that is what the law requires. But the Law also requires that the first stone be thrown by a person that is sinless in connection to this charge." It was true that the law required that the guilty man be stoned as well (Deuteronomy 22:22). But it also required that witnesses be produced and that a witness also begin the execution. The scribes and Pharisees did not produce the guilty man and could not produce the required witnesses. So Jesus set the woman free with a warning to sin no more.

So basically, the requirement for a witness without sin to actually begin the execution was a law that was already in place. Jesus did not invent this. But unaware Christians have exploited this story to make it appear as if it was Jesus who preached this philosophy first and to show how compassionate and forgiving he was. This is not to say Jesus was not a compassionate and forgiving man, but this story has been woefully exploited. And the adulteress was not executed because none of the requirements were met to accuse her in the first place. There were neither witnesses nor any man that was brought forth and there was no one among them at the time who was sinless to begin the execution either.

Anonymous wrote:Sahi Muslim No. 4206:

“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, [b]Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and [/b]she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

Bin Baz and Co. would tell you the meaning of this hadith is that the woman loved Islam SOOOOO much she wanted to be killed for her sins. The prophet gave her every opportunity to get out of it, but she insisted. So he obliged.

There's a similar hadith about a man who wanted to be punished. He was given every leeway too but insisted on punishment. That one was married. Technically it ain't adultery unless you're married.

Sahi Muslim No. 4206:

“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, [b]Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and [/b]she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

Anonymous wrote:I just don't understand how people can talk about Islam and conveniently ignore how it is only Islam that propagates this brutal violence. Especially when the reasons are so clear.

Take, for example, the famous story of Jesus' intervention when a crowd was about to stone an adulterous woman. His words, to let the person "who is without sin cast the first stone", sent the mob retreating in shame. He then told the woman to, "Go and sin no more." Fundamental Christian story. Heard it since I was a small child.

As documented in the Quran, Muhammed was confronted with a similar situation. A pregnant adulterous woman had come to him requesting that he pray with her for forgiveness. He sent her away until the baby was born. When she came back months later, he sent her away until the child was weened. When she came back as directed, he took the child and gave it to one of his men as a gift. Muhammed then ordered the mother buried up to her shoulders and stoned to death.

It really is time for media pundits, college professors, and self-serving politicos to stop making shallow moral equivalence statements about Islam, the Quran, and the Crusades.

Did you just pull that out of your ass or can you not provide the precise source for both of those stories? Provide the specific authority please.

DR. QANTA AHMED'S TESTIMONY TO HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE

During the visit, though I was not granted clearance to question the
students directly, under supervision of my fellow physician colleagues and
with the Pakistani Rangers nearby, I was allowed to meet with one 15-year
old Pakistani boy in particular. I listened to him for about an hour as
he described his transition from a school boy of 13 walking to school, his
seduction by an older boy with tales of a `purer', `more legitimate'
Islam--that of the Taliban's--his voluntary decision to run away and join
a network of Taliban militants, his deliberate and very labyrinthine
confinements in hiding centers called `markaz' (centers), his handlers'
persistent and successful maneuvering defeating the dedicated efforts of
his parents to retrieve him, his training and preparation which he
chillingly termed `Tarbiyyat' which means `religious education'
(consisting of advanced training in the use of a handgun, the deployment
of a grenade and the successful detonation of a suicide jacket) and,
finally, his ultimate surrender to a police officer in the designated
target of attack--a nearby mosque. I have in my possession his
de-identified narrative which can be reviewed in a classified forum but as
is not available for disclosure in this public record.

This young boy's naivete, his isolated and distorted world view, his lack
of knowledge of Bin Laden or 9-11 and his indoctrination all revealed to
me that Islamist ideologies are active, alive and moving ahead far beyond
the reach of 20th Century Al-Qaedah ideology. Further, his halting and
unconfident Urdu reminded me much of the nascent transition from boyhood
to manhood of my own brothers when they were younger, who fortunately have
been sheltered from such manipulations by opportunities our family could
give them because we are so attached to our native Britain and Islam, not
Islamism.

Further, the young boy also revealed his Islamist-indoctrinated hatred of
certain sects of Muslims, including Shias who are a minority in Pakistan,
his belief that anyone collaborating with a western-dressed individual was an enemy
of Islam--including Pakistani troops who are usually dressed in western trousers--and
that any who engaged with US troops was also an enemy to Islam.

I just don't understand how people can talk about Islam and conveniently ignore how it is only Islam that propagates this brutal violence. Especially when the reasons are so clear.

Take, for example, the famous story of Jesus' intervention when a crowd was about to stone an adulterous woman. His words, to let the person "who is without sin cast the first stone", sent the mob retreating in shame. He then told the woman to, "Go and sin no more." Fundamental Christian story. Heard it since I was a small child.

As documented in the Quran, Muhammed was confronted with a similar situation. A pregnant adulterous woman had come to him requesting that he pray with her for forgiveness. He sent her away until the baby was born. When she came back months later, he sent her away until the child was weened. When she came back as directed, he took the child and gave it to one of his men as a gift. Muhammed then ordered the mother buried up to her shoulders and stoned to death.

It really is time for media pundits, college professors, and self-serving politicos to stop making shallow moral equivalence statements about Islam, the Quran, and the Crusades.

I'm put off from Islam by the belligerent and untruthful behavior of some of its defenders here on DCUM.

Anonymous wrote:I think reading the Quran should be required in every high school. DC read it in her DMV-area public high school, and came away wide-eyed about some of the things in it. It's one thing to passively read posts from Muslima about Islam being a religion of peace that offers rights for women, et cetera. It's much better, as citizens in an increasingly connected world, for our children to be educated about what the Quran really says.

good point. I agree with this. We should have every high school student study the Quran. Even better they should have a course that compares Mohammed's life with Jesus's life. They should be have to study Sharia Law in detail.

Anonymous wrote:I think reading the Quran should be required in every high school. DC read it in her DMV-area public high school, and came away wide-eyed about some of the things in it. It's one thing to passively read posts from Muslima about Islam being a religion of peace that offers rights for women, et cetera. It's much better, as citizens in an increasingly connected world, for our children to be educated about what the Quran really says.

Well, to be completely honest, both Old and New Testaments are full of unsavory stuff. Quran does not have the monopoly.

I think reading the Quran should be required in every high school. DC read it in her DMV-area public high school, and came away wide-eyed about some of the things in it. It's one thing to passively read posts from Muslima about Islam being a religion of peace that offers rights for women, et cetera. It's much better, as citizens in an increasingly connected world, for our children to be educated about what the Quran really says.

Anjem not anthem

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you wear your hijab or burka or niqab, you are instantly at a loss of individual identity. You can only be identified as a repressed woman of Islam, a walking billboard for your religion, you are instantly confined, not liberated. ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psZBaJU_Cvo

Required educational viewing. Should be shown in all high schools as part of AP Government.

The West still refuses to acknowledge that in many regions, religious revolution is a far greater evil than undemocratic government.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psZBaJU_Cvo

Anthem is a known dummy but the woman us dumber.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you wear your hijab or burka or niqab, you are instantly at a loss of individual identity. You can only be identified as a repressed woman of Islam, a walking billboard for your religion, you are instantly confined, not liberated. ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psZBaJU_Cvo

Required educational viewing. Should be shown in all high schools as part of AP Government.

The West still refuses to acknowledge that in many regions, religious revolution is a far greater evil than undemocratic government.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psZBaJU_Cvo

Anonymous wrote:When you wear your hijab or burka or niqab, you are instantly at a loss of individual identity. You can only be identified as a repressed woman of Islam, a walking billboard for your religion, you are instantly confined, not liberated. ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psZBaJU_Cvo

Required educational viewing. Should be shown in all high schools as part of AP Government.

The West still refuses to acknowledge that in many regions, religious revolution is a far greater evil than undemocratic government.

Muslima wrote:
And that is why you are not a Muslim. Of course even presented with evidence you will continue to refute and choose to ignore the context in which the verse was revealed, while it is Quran101 that each verse has a meaning according to the context in which it was revealed. Of course the Quran is timeless and Allah in his infinite wisdom chooses to focus and cover whatever He pleases. Who are you to decide "What does it matter that somewhere in Arabia or Yemen there MAY have been a tiny sect of Jews who believed something atypical?" Obviously it mattered to the Creator of the Universe who included it in His Book.

You've presented evidence that I found unconvincing. It's not arrogant to say this. I don't continue saying this to spite you; I find it lacking. I would find it lacking whoever says it.

My dear, I'm not a Muslim. I don't believe in "we hear and we obey", and allahu alam. Things need to make sense to me. What you posted doesn't make sense. I'm sure it makes a lot of sense to a Muslim that Allah makes up his own mind so "who are you to decide?" and no more wondering is necessary , but I am not a member of that club. I don't need to be anyone to doubt the Quran. I don't remain unconvinced to spite you; I simply find the evidence that you posted lacking. Clearly, if I was a Muslim, I would, but you know, things that make sense make sense to everyone. If you NEED to be Muslim to understand something, something is wrong with the argument. I already said that you sound like a bad dawaee who gets angry when you tell them they've done a bad job, and they blame you instead.