Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

All true. I am not claiming that the near-annilihation of native Indians would not be a crime, far from it. I am only claiming that it is different from the "final solution" and the holocaust.

How so? How is it different?

One is carefully planned and diligently executed mass-murder. The other is not.

How do you know that?

There was no a Wannsee conference where the mass execution of all native Americans was decided, together with a plan on how to achieve this. There were no killing camps where all native Americans were shipped and then gassed. The near-annilihation of native Americans played out over centuries, the holocaust witin 3 years.

Calling a crime a crime is one thing. Considering all crimes the same and of the same moral dimension is another.

holocaust was not just jews, you do know that
There were killing camps for native Americans, they were not shipped because they were made to walk

just a question of how popular the victims happen to be

So maybe you can point me to the equivalent of Auschwitz (or Treblinka, or Sobibor) on US soil.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Today, many Germans reject any guilt/responsibility because they were not alive when this happened but I don't take that position.

I find this odd. How can one feel guilty or assume responsibility for something one has not done nor facilitated?

Another German here (born in the 70s, with parents born after WWII). I agree, but there is a line to walk for Germans. I don't feel guilty or responsible for the Holocaust, but I do think that Germany and Germans have a special responsibility to remember it, and also have a particular responsibility towards the Jews and Israel. I do feel that I should not be personally resented for something neither I nor my parents were involved in, but the topic is certainly deeply uncomfortable. I don't know any Germans who aren't deeply disturbed by our country's history, and nobody I know would reject this type of responsibility.

Curious, do Germans feel any responsibilty towards Palestinians?
Also, what were your grandparents doing during the war? This is not meant to be a threatening question.

There is a tradition among the radical German left to side with the Palestinians. Otherwise I'm not aware that Germans feel more responsibility towards Palestinians than any other nation.

Regarding my grandparents - as far as I know, they were not actively involved in any atrocities. They certainly were the types who looked the other way if they knew anything. My one grandfather was wounded early and returned to his farm, my other grandfather was in Italy. Maybe they sympathized with the Nazis, I don't know. It wasn't something they liked to talk about after the war. They were politically conservative, there were the typical tensions with my leftist, 1968'er generation parents, and I learned early they weren't the ones with whom to discuss politics or social issues. Why do you ask? What they did or didn't do doesn't affect what I wrote above in any way.

OP here, also German, a few years older than you.

Being historically conscious and feeling compassion for Palestinians is no contradiction to me. Messy conflicts such as the Israeli-Paletinian one know (too) many victims and few heroes. But the Palestinian civil population is suffering the most, and it is natural that one's sympathy would be with them.

At the same time, Israel's right to exist and the right of Israelis to live self-determined, in peace and in safe borders is beyond question to me - but the same holds for Palestinians.

Then again, the fact that the Palestinians don't have their own state today is in part their own fault. A couple of times, serious and brave Israeli statesmen - Jitzchak Rabin, Ehud Barak - made reasonably fair peace offers that could have much improved the Palestinians' plight, but the vain and incompetent Palestinian leadership did not take them. The Palestinians would have needed a Nelson Mandela or at least a Gerry Adams, all they had was Yassir Arafat. It takes two to tango, and also two to make peace.

At the same time, and in contrast to the Rabins and Baraks, I do not consider today's Israeli Prime Minister a figure with whom progress could be achieved. Loyalty to Israel does not mean that one needs to agree with its political leadership at every juncture. At this juncture, I don't.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you were a regular German citizen who survived the war, would you be eager or even willing to admit that you had serious suspicions about what was happening to the Jews and did nothing to help? Or would it be easier for you to say that you'd heard certain rumors that you entirely discredited?

Let's think about this in current terms. If you are a regular Israeli or American Jew, are you eager or even willing to admit what is happening to the Palestinians? Are you not similarly guilty by omission?

This wouldn't actually be comparable, even if you limited to Israeli Jews, which you didn't. (Note that American Jews are Americans.)

However, there are some parts of German society that are quite grateful for the Israeli Jews vis a vis the Palestinians, because then every time the Holocaust comes up, they can say, "Oh yeah? Well, what about what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians?"

What parts of German society are you referring to, and what are you basing this on? Because I lived in Germany for 30 years and have never met anybody who would say such a thing, and I cannot imagine any of the Germans I know thinking it. The Germans I know find it very difficult to take a position in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, because while they recognize the injustices that are happening to the Palestinians, they find it very hard to take a position against Jews. They know it is a complicated situation, one for which Germany is partially responsible, and they would never compare the crimes against Palestinians with the Holocaust, much less use them to excuse it. The singularity of the Holocaust is a pretty strong dogma in Germany.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

All true. I am not claiming that the near-annilihation of native Indians would not be a crime, far from it. I am only claiming that it is different from the "final solution" and the holocaust.

How so? How is it different?

One is carefully planned and diligently executed mass-murder. The other is not.

How do you know that?

There was no a Wannsee conference where the mass execution of all native Americans was decided, together with a plan on how to achieve this. There were no killing camps where all native Americans were shipped and then gassed. The near-annilihation of native Americans played out over centuries, the holocaust witin 3 years.

Calling a crime a crime is one thing. Considering all crimes the same and of the same moral dimension is another.

holocaust was not just jews, you do know that
There were killing camps for native Americans, they were not shipped because they were made to walk

just a question of how popular the victims happen to be

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Today, many Germans reject any guilt/responsibility because they were not alive when this happened but I don't take that position.

I find this odd. How can one feel guilty or assume responsibility for something one has not done nor facilitated?

Another German here (born in the 70s, with parents born after WWII). I agree, but there is a line to walk for Germans. I don't feel guilty or responsible for the Holocaust, but I do think that Germany and Germans have a special responsibility to remember it, and also have a particular responsibility towards the Jews and Israel. I do feel that I should not be personally resented for something neither I nor my parents were involved in, but the topic is certainly deeply uncomfortable. I don't know any Germans who aren't deeply disturbed by our country's history, and nobody I know would reject this type of responsibility.

Curious, do Germans feel any responsibilty towards Palestinians?
Also, what were your grandparents doing during the war? This is not meant to be a threatening question.

There is a tradition among the radical German left to side with the Palestinians. Otherwise I'm not aware that Germans feel more responsibility towards Palestinians than any other nation.

Regarding my grandparents - as far as I know, they were not actively involved in any atrocities. They certainly were the types who looked the other way if they knew anything. My one grandfather was wounded early and returned to his farm, my other grandfather was in Italy. Maybe they sympathized with the Nazis, I don't know. It wasn't something they liked to talk about after the war. They were politically conservative, there were the typical tensions with my leftist, 1968'er generation parents, and I learned early they weren't the ones with whom to discuss politics or social issues. Why do you ask? What they did or didn't do doesn't affect what I wrote above in any way.

Anonymous wrote:It has been suggested to me the Jewish population was made the scapegoats for perceived or actual rise of affluence without inclusion within Germany?
I also dismissed this as racism but as an adult I am very confused when I am faced with a racist Jewish person.
Yes I'm AA. But never knew about the Jewish Black problems until I came to DC.and I hear it's real bad in NY. Any thoughts?

I am AA and married to Jewish person.
I know about the racism. It is tricky and hard to deal with. Difficult to explain it to my kids.
Almost all white ethnic minorities seem to have more issues with Blacks than the typical White Anglo Protestants. It may be a confidence thing. Or perhaps these White minorities are scared of perceived lower social status in associating with Blacks. Who knows.
We belong to a congregation that is supposed to be liberal but I have heard some really searing comments about Blacks (IQs, sex stereotypes, violence) that leave me speechless.
I know that Jews have achilles heels, things that cause them to get really upset (not just the stereotyped issues). If the shoe had been on the other foot, most of these people would not forgive me.
Please, I hope that I can continue to be patient.

It has been suggested to me the Jewish population was made the scapegoats for perceived or actual rise of affluence without inclusion within Germany?
I also dismissed this as racism but as an adult I am very confused when I am faced with a racist Jewish person.
Yes I'm AA. But never knew about the Jewish Black problems until I came to DC.and I hear it's real bad in NY. Any thoughts?

Anonymous wrote:I think it's dangerous to believe that there is something special about Germans that makes them more evil than the rest of us. Do you think spaniards are more evil because they participated in the slave trade? How about white Americans? How about the Japanese and their aggression in WWII? Or how about the US, dropping a bomb on Hiroshima? No one has a monopoly on evil. We are all capable of it. And unless you are dedicating yourself to saving people from genocide wherever it is occurring TODAY, you are partially culpable.

Yes
Yes
Yes
And yes
But Germany and Hiroshima are tied for 1 and 2 with Japam and Pearl Harbor close 2. But I know the Japanese have some esteem and aggression issues to work out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you were a regular German citizen who survived the war, would you be eager or even willing to admit that you had serious suspicions about what was happening to the Jews and did nothing to help? Or would it be easier for you to say that you'd heard certain rumors that you entirely discredited?

Let's think about this in current terms. If you are a regular Israeli or American Jew, are you eager or even willing to admit what is happening to the Palestinians? Are you not similarly guilty by omission?

This wouldn't actually be comparable, even if you limited to Israeli Jews, which you didn't. (Note that American Jews are Americans.)

However, there are some parts of German society that are quite grateful for the Israeli Jews vis a vis the Palestinians, because then every time the Holocaust comes up, they can say, "Oh yeah? Well, what about what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians?"

Well, perhaps they have a point?

What would that point be? That Germans shouldn't feel so bad about their country exterminating Jews because Jews do bad things too?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Today, many Germans reject any guilt/responsibility because they were not alive when this happened but I don't take that position.

I find this odd. How can one feel guilty or assume responsibility for something one has not done nor facilitated?

Another German here (born in the 70s, with parents born after WWII). I agree, but there is a line to walk for Germans. I don't feel guilty or responsible for the Holocaust, but I do think that Germany and Germans have a special responsibility to remember it, and also have a particular responsibility towards the Jews and Israel. I do feel that I should not be personally resented for something neither I nor my parents were involved in, but the topic is certainly deeply uncomfortable. I don't know any Germans who aren't deeply disturbed by our country's history, and nobody I know would reject this type of responsibility.

Curious, do Germans feel any responsibilty towards Palestinians?
Also, what were your grandparents doing during the war? This is not meant to be a threatening question.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
agree, But Hitler got his ideas about killing Jews from the way the US handled the Native Americans. He wrote that the S. Americans did not clear the land of the undesireable natives before building a country, hence their economic failures. On the other hand, the N. Americans (US, Canada) did a sweep before building a nation, hence the success.
He tought that Europe needed to do a cleaning too.

Interesting. Source?

Btw, the term "ethnic cleansing" wasn't seen as negatively after WWII as it is today. The forced mass-migration of Germans from (today's) Poland to Germany, of Poles from Ukraine to Poland, etc.. in the mid-1940s was approved by the likes of Churchill and FDR, seen as the only durable way of lessening ethnic conflict in Eastern Europe.

Mein Kampf, yes I read it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you were a regular German citizen who survived the war, would you be eager or even willing to admit that you had serious suspicions about what was happening to the Jews and did nothing to help? Or would it be easier for you to say that you'd heard certain rumors that you entirely discredited?

Let's think about this in current terms. If you are a regular Israeli or American Jew, are you eager or even willing to admit what is happening to the Palestinians? Are you not similarly guilty by omission?

This wouldn't actually be comparable, even if you limited to Israeli Jews, which you didn't. (Note that American Jews are Americans.)

However, there are some parts of German society that are quite grateful for the Israeli Jews vis a vis the Palestinians, because then every time the Holocaust comes up, they can say, "Oh yeah? Well, what about what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians?"

Well, perhaps they have a point?

Anonymous wrote:
agree, But Hitler got his ideas about killing Jews from the way the US handled the Native Americans. He wrote that the S. Americans did not clear the land of the undesireable natives before building a country, hence their economic failures. On the other hand, the N. Americans (US, Canada) did a sweep before building a nation, hence the success.
He tought that Europe needed to do a cleaning too.

Interesting. Source?

Btw, the term "ethnic cleansing" wasn't seen as negatively after WWII as it is today. The forced mass-migration of Germans from (today's) Poland to Germany, of Poles from Ukraine to Poland, etc.. in the mid-1940s was approved by the likes of Churchill and FDR, seen as the only durable way of lessening ethnic conflict in Eastern Europe.

Anonymous wrote:If you were a regular German citizen who survived the war, would you be eager or even willing to admit that you had serious suspicions about what was happening to the Jews and did nothing to help? Or would it be easier for you to say that you'd heard certain rumors that you entirely discredited?

Take some time to read about Sophie Scholl and see what happened to her. She was decapitated for distributing leaflets. She was about 21 and a cute young woman. Came from an upper middle class family. He had no problem executing her and her brother.
If you were German and saw that, you would hang low, unless you were out of the country.
The Nazis executed TONS of Christian Germans daily.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

All true. I am not claiming that the near-annilihation of native Indians would not be a crime, far from it. I am only claiming that it is different from the "final solution" and the holocaust.

How so? How is it different?

One is carefully planned and diligently executed mass-murder. The other is not.

How do you know that?

There was no a Wannsee conference where the mass execution of all native Americans was decided, together with a plan on how to achieve this. There were no killing camps where all native Americans were shipped and then gassed. The near-annilihation of native Americans played out over centuries, the holocaust witin 3 years.

Calling a crime a crime is one thing. Considering all crimes the same and of the same moral dimension is another.

In actuality, you don't know if meetings were had in the planning of exterminating the natives. Jews are plentiful in today's society, while natives are a blip. I'm sure they'd consider your disregard for the suffering of their ancestors no big deal.

Where you take "disregard for the suffering of native Americans" only you will know. I would be outraged it I could take you seriously.

Besides, it's not clear to me what point you want to make. The holocaust and conquering of America by Europeans and the expense of natives are just the same thing?