Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:52     Subject: Re:Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
Anonymous wrote:Really sucks for us if they go back to test required.

DC SAT score 1580, applied to college last year. So many colleges were TO. DC got rejected to T15. I do wonder if TO hurt DC.

DC#2 is a sophomore, not as high achieving and will probably have an SAT score around 1300 mark. TO would be great for this DC.

I know life is unfair, but this really stinks for my kids.


There will still be plenty of schools that are TO in 2 years. Some have gone test blind and do not plan to change---most of those were moving to test blind well before covid hit.

Interestingly, why would you want your "DC#2 not as high achieving" to be at a T25 school? If their SAT is 1300 and as you state they are not as high achieving, they don't seem like the ideal candidate for a T25. Wouldn't they actually be better off at a school that is a much better fit for them? Most non-high achievers will sink at schools that are filled with "high achievers". I have a "high achiever" who is not a striver and I'm actually glad they didn't get into a T20 school, as I think the 30-40 ranked school they are at is a much better environment for them
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:50     Subject: Re:Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
It is delusional to think that a kid with a 1100 is going to be able to put together the total package necessary to get into one of these elite schools. It might make you feel better to believe that your kid lost out to such a kid, but that is not what happened.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:50     Subject: Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
This is fantastic news - it was also expected, and I'd argue for a max. of one re-take due to illness or other documented reason.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:48     Subject: Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Good. There may not be much difference between at 1500 and a 1600, but a 1200 does speak to the ability of a kid with a great GPA to succeed in a competitive college environment


There is no reason a college environment should be competitive.

Did you read the article? It's saying the opposite. Dartmouth wants to find people with SAT scores below 1400, and they were frustrated that their target audience wasn't taking the SAT.


oh yea, so 2.5 GPA should be fine


1350 SAT is 90TH percentile. So in reality, not that far from a 1500. The differences are small.
Especially if that 1350 is from a kid in a disadvantaged area, in a HS where only 25% of kids even go to college and the kid only had 3-4 AP courses offered (or none at all). This kid likely took the SAT once, and with minimal prep. So that shows the kid has what it takes to succeed at Dartmouth, if they also have a high gpa.
That is what they are searching for.

BTW, 2.5 GPA is less than 50th percentile, so no, it "won't be fine". But you knew that



You bring up two other good points...get rid of super-scoring and limit kids to taking the SAT only 2x.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:47     Subject: Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This allows Dartmouth to better differentiate among students from low-performing, under-resourced high schools. But they're not going to admit white/asian strivers instead of those students. No way. So it's not what the standardized test absolutists were hoping for. In fact, it's worse for them than test optional.


No, it is much better that test optional or race based weighting, because it puts kids from a similar school/socioeconomic background on a level footing.

The race system hypothetically creates a system where an obama girl, with all her wealth, resources, privileges and oppotunities from the top private school in the country, to get admitted into an elote college with a far lower SAT than her asian classmate, or even an asian male immigrant from a failing urban public school with an SAT hundreds of points above her SAT, but 50 points below the expected score for asian males.

The test optional system allows an affluent classmate who cheated through high school to get high grades or paid someone to write their application, who scored a 1200 or 1000 SAT to get accepted over a classmate with similar grades, stats, activities and a 1530 SAT, and with the supreme court decision and no race consideration, even more smart minorities are losing out over mediocre rich kids.

Returning to tests required after the supreme court decision means that all those affluent and middle class students are going to be on a more equal playing field as all their affluent or middle class peers, regardless of race. The African-American math geek with the 1570 SAT is not going to get shut out by the white leadership girl with inflated grades and an 1100 SAT who submitted test optional with great extracurriculars. They will no longer be targeting the same schools. It also means that those brilliant kids from failing schools (disproportionately minority) will now get caught up and noticed since they will submit their scores once again.

This is moving back towards merit and opportunity.


To the PP with whom I have been going back-and-forth...this proves my point. I assume whoever wrote this post is not native-born. Notice how in their scenario, their kid is losing out to the AA with a 1570. Notice how the AA to whom they are losing out did not score a 1300 from Baltimore public schools.


You misread. (Again??)

The AA kid with the high SAT could easily get rejected from a top school, while his test optional white classmate with all the right leadership activities and a very low SAT gets into the exact same school without submitting scores, due to the combination of test optional and the supreme court decision.

You must have a lot of biases against minorities to read that example in that way.


We both agree the end of TO is a good thing.

Just don't be shocked if you applaud the Baltimore city kid getting accepted with a 1300...and someone saying "f**k that...my 1580 kid was rejected and should have been accepted over that kid"
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:46     Subject: Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Good. There may not be much difference between at 1500 and a 1600, but a 1200 does speak to the ability of a kid with a great GPA to succeed in a competitive college environment


There is no reason a college environment should be competitive.

Did you read the article? It's saying the opposite. Dartmouth wants to find people with SAT scores below 1400, and they were frustrated that their target audience wasn't taking the SAT.


oh yea, so 2.5 GPA should be fine


1350 SAT is 90TH percentile. So in reality, not that far from a 1500. The differences are small.
Especially if that 1350 is from a kid in a disadvantaged area, in a HS where only 25% of kids even go to college and the kid only had 3-4 AP courses offered (or none at all). This kid likely took the SAT once, and with minimal prep. So that shows the kid has what it takes to succeed at Dartmouth, if they also have a high gpa.
That is what they are searching for.

BTW, 2.5 GPA is less than 50th percentile, so no, it "won't be fine". But you knew that

Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:45     Subject: Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
Anonymous wrote:So...Dartmouth's acceptance rate in 2020 (2019-2020 was the last year that tests were required) was 8.97 percent. Yes, it has gotten worse since then (6.15% last year) but the point is that it test optional is not what made it impossible for high stats kids to get into Dartmouth. It was a crapshoot before then.

There needs to be a more systemic change, for example, the Common App needs to limit the number of applications each student can submit (say, 12 schools). Then, colleges won't be flooded with applications, students will have to be more thoughtful about where they apply, and tests (if they are required) can actually be used as part of a holistic review because colleges will have more than a hot second to review applications.


Agree. There is no downside for kids to apply to 20 reach schools. They need to limit the number of applications. There are just far too many applications these days to be able to consider applicants fully.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:43     Subject: Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My UMC kid said this means she needs to get her 1530 up to 1550. I don't think so .. do you?


No.

It means her 1530 has returned to having value like it did pre-test optional.


Also means that the score will be evaluated in context. The "value" will be based on zip code and HS resources.

A low income kid with a 1400 has just a good a chance at Dartmouth as a UMC kid with a 1530.

Are you OK with that?


Our magnate schools provide SAT prep to all students on free lunch level family income but not to muddle class families. Many middle class students can't afford private prep centers, they are at a disadvantage.


With diligence, a student can work through many prep materials for the cost of a few paperback books. The hardest part is figuring out one's own patterns of mistakes. A college educated adult in the home can provide this assistance.

In our school district, a very minimal level of summer prep class (Khan Academy plus free support from a math teacher to answer questions) was provided to all who registered.

As a taxpayer, if you want your schools to offer SAT prep for all students, you can contact your school board. If you are polite rather than resentful, they may consider expanding the program.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:42     Subject: Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
And there are so many resources available now to prep for free. A motivated kid can do it.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:42     Subject: Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't care if it benefits my kids or not.

It is just far more fair and that feels good. No more DMV kids with their grossly inflated GPAs and crappy SAT scores sneaking in. The SAT is not rocket science. If you were able to get a 4.0, you should be able to do well on that test. It tests basic high school math and the ability to read and comprehend.

I don't care if every single spot vacated Dartmouth spot goes to an inner city or rural kid with a 1300. Just not the 4.0 grade inflated dopes.



Yes! Exactly!


People will only spend the time on things, like mastering the test, if there is a benefit to them. Be sure that people will switch focus back to the test if it will matter more in the future. Because, as you said, anyone with a 4.0 can do well. If that's true why is the test so valuable and important again if it's easy to do well?
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:41     Subject: Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
So...Dartmouth's acceptance rate in 2020 (2019-2020 was the last year that tests were required) was 8.97 percent. Yes, it has gotten worse since then (6.15% last year) but the point is that it test optional is not what made it impossible for high stats kids to get into Dartmouth. It was a crapshoot before then.

There needs to be a more systemic change, for example, the Common App needs to limit the number of applications each student can submit (say, 12 schools). Then, colleges won't be flooded with applications, students will have to be more thoughtful about where they apply, and tests (if they are required) can actually be used as part of a holistic review because colleges will have more than a hot second to review applications.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:40     Subject: Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
I think colleges can spot counselor written essays a mile away
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:40     Subject: Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
Anonymous wrote:I don't care if it benefits my kids or not.

It is just far more fair and that feels good. No more DMV kids with their grossly inflated GPAs and crappy SAT scores sneaking in. The SAT is not rocket science. If you were able to get a 4.0, you should be able to do well on that test. It tests basic high school math and the ability to read and comprehend.

I don't care if every single spot vacated Dartmouth spot goes to an inner city or rural kid with a 1300. Just not the 4.0 grade inflated dopes.

+1
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:40     Subject: Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
Anonymous wrote:I agree that truly authentic kids are rare and sought after. An essay that shows an applicant's true self goes a long way.


Especially if the essay was written by a really qualified college counselor.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2024 12:39     Subject: Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year
Anonymous wrote:I don't care if it benefits my kids or not.

It is just far more fair and that feels good. No more DMV kids with their grossly inflated GPAs and crappy SAT scores sneaking in. The SAT is not rocket science. If you were able to get a 4.0, you should be able to do well on that test. It tests basic high school math and the ability to read and comprehend.

I don't care if every single spot vacated Dartmouth spot goes to an inner city or rural kid with a 1300. Just not the 4.0 grade inflated dopes.



Yes! Exactly!