Anonymous wrote:Some people are really confusing common needs like ADHD with more severe emotional desabilities (ED). ADHD kids are fine for me, as a teacher. I kind of like the energy they bring, and I don't care if they talk too much or can't sit still. But some ED kids can be scary - literally. Not all of them, of course, but many. They are unpredictable and tend to have sudden outbursts instead of just constant wiggliness. In a class of 30-35, like at some elementary schools in FCPS, this is impossible for a teacher to safely deal with. And yet, admin insists that a good teacher can, and if you can't, then you're a bad teacher.

Hence.....a six year old shoots a teacher.

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand how it’s ok to let children stay in a classroom when they are physically and verbally assaulting other kids and the teacher.

It isn't. But there don't appear to be any options these days.

Anyone physically assaulted should be contacting the police each and every time. Teachers and parents of children that are assaulted.

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Anonymous wrote:No child left behind REALLY screwed so many kids. It hasn't helped kids avoid being academically left behind. And "least restrictive environment" isn't helpful when the kid is verbally disruptive.

+1 Very rarely will non-teachers admit this. But NCLB/IDEA/FAPE ruined public schools in the US. The Federal Government and Congress like the publicity of “helping everyone” but provided no funding. So then all children suffer.

+1
IDEA and FAPE are nice concepts but until the feds actually fund these programs as they need to be they are breaking schools.

This. It could work with proper funding. There is not proper funding and it's not working. There's at least one student at our ES who is causing their classroom to be evacuated on a weekly basis, sometimes twice a week. The kids are out of the room for about 20 minutes each time it happens. That's 100 minutes of missed instruction per month for every kid in the class, including the other non disruptive classmates who have IEPs and are also legally entitled to FAPE.

What do you mean by causing the classroom to be evacuated? Is the student hurting other people? If so you need to get involved. Others have posted re how to get results - see posts up thread.

Anonymous wrote:Looks like the lawsuit from the teacher shot by the 6 year old might change the way kids with “emotional disabilities” are handled in schools.

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I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

You don't even understand what inclusion is. Why do people insist on vocalizing uneducated opinions?

See, sweetheart, a teacher replied to this too — do you think they also misunderstand ‘inclusion’?

My smart, sensitive, social 3rd grader attends an excellent large public, with great teachers, and we see some of this, too. We have plenty of kids with in-denial parents who can’t accept that their angels make death threats or attack kids in the bathroom. Kids who pull this crap - I would say publicly I don’t give a good goddamned thing about WHAT causes the kind of behavior that traumatizes other humans. I DON’T. There are over 2 dozen children in every classroom with one unmanageable child! So many of these posts just insist that THEIR education is secondary to the fits and the violence and IT ISN’T. I will never ever stop confronting this detestable entitlement because THAT is what it is of parents (here obviously on this damned thread) and their apologists (ditto). We can and should confront what inclusion and access mean for everyone in a population FGS.

Then do it.

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Anonymous wrote:I do think the pendulum has swung a little too far in terms of the inclusion philosophy at public schools. It's not fair to the teachers or the neurotypical students when there are students in the class who have needs that can't be met in a normal classroom.

If the schools had the resources to provide sufficient staff to help teachers manage those students it might be a different story. But they don't.

Yep, this. It is really unfair the majority of kids that they are held hostage by other kids with these issues. If you are a parent of a child who disrupts the learning of all the other kids, how do you justify yourself? Don’t you feel bad?

They don’t. Their job as a parent is to push what’s best for their kid. Doesn’t matter if your kid is steamrolled in the process. You, and all other parents of kids impacted by behaviorally challenged kids should have the same philosophy. Instead you are expected to have empathy and “give grace”.

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This is when all parents in the classroom with impacted kids need to rally together and fight back as a group. Daily communications to the school and superintendents. Attending every school board meeting and making a racket. Any child injured, their parent files a police report. Your children are entitled to FAPE too.

Sadly, by law, they’re not, and that needs to change. The laws need a VAST overhaul, so they actually begin to intersect with reality.

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Anonymous wrote:I substituted for one day and never went back. Kids are scary!!!

Oh god

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I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

You don't even understand what inclusion is. Why do people insist on vocalizing uneducated opinions?

See, sweetheart, a teacher replied to this too — do you think they also misunderstand ‘inclusion’?

My smart, sensitive, social 3rd grader attends an excellent large public, with great teachers, and we see some of this, too. We have plenty of kids with in-denial parents who can’t accept that their angels make death threats or attack kids in the bathroom. Kids who pull this crap - I would say publicly I don’t give a good goddamned thing about WHAT causes the kind of behavior that traumatizes other humans. I DON’T. There are over 2 dozen children in every classroom with one unmanageable child! So many of these posts just insist that THEIR education is secondary to the fits and the violence and IT ISN’T. I will never ever stop confronting this detestable entitlement because THAT is what it is of parents (here obviously on this damned thread) and their apologists (ditto). We can and should confront what inclusion and access mean for everyone in a population FGS.

Sweetheart?

I’m sure her principal knows that that particular teacher’s abilities are limited. No teacher worth their salt acts like that.

+1 lol at this teacher. Couldn't handle a challenging class so their principal moved them into something more their speed.

Why should I do more work for the same money and loads of IEP meetings with parents like you? Only an idiot would take that deal. At our school, sped inclusion is all junior teachers.

At least at our parochial school, the older, more experienced teachers are always known for being the best with SN children. Sure, *like the public schools*, if there are disruptive behaviors and those behaviors can't be contained, the child is eventually asked to leave. But in the meantime, clearly the better teachers know how to deal with the variety of special needs presented (disruptive and physical behaviors, learning disabilities, emotional regulation issues, neuroatypicalities). They take that job, for even less money than you make... because they love and seek to understand all children. You shouldn't be a teacher if you don't.

Do you know how condescending this sounds, that teachers should basically work for the love of the job as opposed to making decent wages? Would you take on more challenging work at your job without additional compensation? Let’s be real there are definitely sexist connotations to this concept of teachers (predominantly women) taking on the work for the love of children. No one would talk like this about a male-dominated industry.

What emotional drivel. There are absolutely men teaching at these schools that I was thinking about when I wrote this post. But if changing the subject makes you feel better about stomping on SN kids. Cool. No amount of reason will help you.

I have a SN kid (ADHD/ASD) so don’t talk to me about “stomping on SN kids” And I never said men don’t teach at these schools, but that teaching is a female dominant profession. If you want to debate that then you’re a loony tune. But regardless of gender, I still don’t think teachers should be forced to take on kids who are dangerous/severely disrupting just because the “love of children.” And look at the Newport News teacher who was freaking shot despite numerous red flags. Some kids don’t belong in general education settings and if my child could not reasonably participate in class I would hope other parents/the teacher would be documenting things to help get my child moved to an appropriate setting. I have NT kids as well so I can see both sides of this.

READ the post you were responding to then. I made it clear violent kids are taken out and never suggested they stay in. People just let emotions middle their responses.

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Anonymous wrote:No child left behind REALLY screwed so many kids. It hasn't helped kids avoid being academically left behind. And "least restrictive environment" isn't helpful when the kid is verbally disruptive.

+1 Very rarely will non-teachers admit this. But NCLB/IDEA/FAPE ruined public schools in the US. The Federal Government and Congress like the publicity of “helping everyone” but provided no funding. So then all children suffer.

I’m so sick of people claiming there’s “no funding” or “not enough funding” in our schools. Schools in DC spend literally more than $22k per year per kid, average. Some are obviously a lot more. Schools in Florida spend $9k and that’s still high, relatively speaking. Other Western countries spend WAY less than we do in the US. People need to start acknowledging that if an average of $22k/year isn’t enough to get all students meeting a basic grade level standard then money is NOT the problem and more money is NOT the answer.

They can start by getting all the disruptive kids out of our classrooms and back into special facilities that are equipped (no scissors, yes metal detectors, yes guards) and trained (staff with personal defense training plus deescalation techniques etc plus aides floating around) to handle them.

The problem is the students and the parents. Not the schools. Schools don’t need more money or more anything. They need less of the thing that’s destroying them, which is disruptive students.

I'm from Europe. Part of the reason why I stayed here for good (or until I retire, at least) is that my first child was born with special needs and I knew my home country's education system had nothing for him. NOTHING. Parents of autistic kids in my country often become indigent because they cannot go to work because their kids cannot go to school!!! Please let that sink in. OF COURSE PUBLIC EDUCATION COSTS ARE LOWER WHEN YOU DON'T ACCOMMODATE THE CHILDREN WHO NEED MORE CARE. European public school systems are narrowly focused on the middle range of achievers. There is no gifted education. No special needs education. Teachers are rigid and expect children to adapt to their teaching style. Here in America it's the opposite, where teachers are trained to adapt to children's learning styles. It's a completely different philosophy. If only we could have the best of both worlds: European educational rigor, with American child-centered focus and attention paid to both extremes of development.

Americans do not realize how economically-sound their public school system really is, thanks to IDEA. It allows parents of kids with special needs to place them safely where there is the least likelihood of abuse (institutions and special schools are notorious for that), harbor some hope they will progress and become independent one day, and it allows them to contribute to the economy and maintain a certain level of dignity. I am incredibly grateful for that federal law, its particular implementation in Montgomery County, and our professional ability to get visas to stay here. We pay all of our taxes in the US, thanks to an agreement between my home country and the USA, so we are stakeholders too, despite not being citizens. We pay into the system just like you.

Now does the current system always work? No. I have witnessed massive disruption to classes when one child has behaviors that stop instruction and bother other children. The push for LRE is misguided. I know many parents of kids with special needs WHO DO NOT WANT LEAST RESTRICTIVE EDUCATION. It is applied to the extreme in cases where a child could never hope to gain anything from a mainstream classroom, because it is the least expensive option. I personally know parents who have fought their public school system to place their kids in more restrictive environments, but there are limited in seats and some are very expensive for the County, if they need specialized private schools that the County pays for. Some reasonably well-off parents choose to homeschool instead.

The American philosophy of meeting each child where they are is in my mind the pinnacle of a civilized society. You should be proud of your country in that regard. No other country in the world has pushed as far as the USA to include every child in its public education effort. It has lifted many families out of poverty because they could finally go to work, and it has trained children who might otherwise never had received a degree to be functional and employable. PLEASE FACTOR THIS INTO YOUR FINANCIAL CALCULATIONS.

We just need to tweak it. Surely we can do that.

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I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

You don't even understand what inclusion is. Why do people insist on vocalizing uneducated opinions?

See, sweetheart, a teacher replied to this too — do you think they also misunderstand ‘inclusion’?

My smart, sensitive, social 3rd grader attends an excellent large public, with great teachers, and we see some of this, too. We have plenty of kids with in-denial parents who can’t accept that their angels make death threats or attack kids in the bathroom. Kids who pull this crap - I would say publicly I don’t give a good goddamned thing about WHAT causes the kind of behavior that traumatizes other humans. I DON’T. There are over 2 dozen children in every classroom with one unmanageable child! So many of these posts just insist that THEIR education is secondary to the fits and the violence and IT ISN’T. I will never ever stop confronting this detestable entitlement because THAT is what it is of parents (here obviously on this damned thread) and their apologists (ditto). We can and should confront what inclusion and access mean for everyone in a population FGS.

Sweetheart?

I’m sure her principal knows that that particular teacher’s abilities are limited. No teacher worth their salt acts like that.

+1 lol at this teacher. Couldn't handle a challenging class so their principal moved them into something more their speed.

Why should I do more work for the same money and loads of IEP meetings with parents like you? Only an idiot would take that deal. At our school, sped inclusion is all junior teachers.

At least at our parochial school, the older, more experienced teachers are always known for being the best with SN children. Sure, *like the public schools*, if there are disruptive behaviors and those behaviors can't be contained, the child is eventually asked to leave. But in the meantime, clearly the better teachers know how to deal with the variety of special needs presented (disruptive and physical behaviors, learning disabilities, emotional regulation issues, neuroatypicalities). They take that job, for even less money than you make... because they love and seek to understand all children. You shouldn't be a teacher if you don't.

Hahaha no. At our school, the older, more senior teachers get the AP and Honors classes so they have to deal with SN and behaviors as little as possible. And teachers chose to teach in private schools for a whole host of reasons, which include things like significantly smaller class sizes (as in half the size in some cases), less paperwork and bureaucracy, and sometimes simply not being able to get a public school job.

Your ridiculous statement is like saying that doctors should treat everybody and lawyers should defend everybody regardless of whether they can pay their medical and legal bills.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

You don't even understand what inclusion is. Why do people insist on vocalizing uneducated opinions?

See, sweetheart, a teacher replied to this too — do you think they also misunderstand ‘inclusion’?

My smart, sensitive, social 3rd grader attends an excellent large public, with great teachers, and we see some of this, too. We have plenty of kids with in-denial parents who can’t accept that their angels make death threats or attack kids in the bathroom. Kids who pull this crap - I would say publicly I don’t give a good goddamned thing about WHAT causes the kind of behavior that traumatizes other humans. I DON’T. There are over 2 dozen children in every classroom with one unmanageable child! So many of these posts just insist that THEIR education is secondary to the fits and the violence and IT ISN’T. I will never ever stop confronting this detestable entitlement because THAT is what it is of parents (here obviously on this damned thread) and their apologists (ditto). We can and should confront what inclusion and access mean for everyone in a population FGS.

Sweetheart?

I’m sure her principal knows that that particular teacher’s abilities are limited. No teacher worth their salt acts like that.

+1 lol at this teacher. Couldn't handle a challenging class so their principal moved them into something more their speed.

Why should I do more work for the same money and loads of IEP meetings with parents like you? Only an idiot would take that deal. At our school, sped inclusion is all junior teachers.

At least at our parochial school, the older, more experienced teachers are always known for being the best with SN children. Sure, *like the public schools*, if there are disruptive behaviors and those behaviors can't be contained, the child is eventually asked to leave. But in the meantime, clearly the better teachers know how to deal with the variety of special needs presented (disruptive and physical behaviors, learning disabilities, emotional regulation issues, neuroatypicalities). They take that job, for even less money than you make... because they love and seek to understand all children. You shouldn't be a teacher if you don't.

Do you know how condescending this sounds, that teachers should basically work for the love of the job as opposed to making decent wages? Would you take on more challenging work at your job without additional compensation? Let’s be real there are definitely sexist connotations to this concept of teachers (predominantly women) taking on the work for the love of children. No one would talk like this about a male-dominated industry.

What emotional drivel. There are absolutely men teaching at these schools that I was thinking about when I wrote this post. But if changing the subject makes you feel better about stomping on SN kids. Cool. No amount of reason will help you.

I have a SN kid (ADHD/ASD) so don’t talk to me about “stomping on SN kids” And I never said men don’t teach at these schools, but that teaching is a female dominant profession. If you want to debate that then you’re a loony tune. But regardless of gender, I still don’t think teachers should be forced to take on kids who are dangerous/severely disrupting just because the “love of children.” And look at the Newport News teacher who was freaking shot despite numerous red flags. Some kids don’t belong in general education settings and if my child could not reasonably participate in class I would hope other parents/the teacher would be documenting things to help get my child moved to an appropriate setting. I have NT kids as well so I can see both sides of this.