OP here. Oops I’m back! Just read this article in the New Left Review. Helps explain the different I see in the Kendi/DeAngelo DEI types when they talk about let’s say “decolonization” and what decolonization traditionally meant. It’s basically an example of a leftist critique of “wokeness” and yes I realize it’s not the best term to use. I’m linking to the article here - ignore the specifics when it comes to Ukraine/Russia and focus on the general point of the article which can be applied to many contexts :

https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii138/articles/volodymyr-ishchenko-ukrainian-voices

Here are some specific parts that stood out to me:

“When the biggest wave of decolonization in modern history took place after the Second World War, the focus was different. At that time, decolonization meant not just the overthrow of the European empires but also, crucially, building new developmentalist states in the ex-colonial countries, with a robust public sector and nationalized industries to replace the imbalances of the colonial economy through import-substitution programmes. The contradictions and failures of such strategies were explored in broadly Marxian terms in theories of under-development, debt-dependency and world-system analysis. Today, ‘decolonization’ is proposed for Ukraine and Russia in a context in which neoliberalism has taken the place of state-developmentalist policies and post-structuralist ‘postcolonial studies’ have displaced theories of neo-imperialist dependency. National liberation is no longer understood as intrinsically linked to social revolution, challenging the basis of capitalism and imperialism. Instead, it happens in the context of the ‘deficient revolutions’ of the Maidan type, which neither achieve the consolidation of liberal democracy nor eradicate corruption. If they succeed in overthrowing authoritarian regimes and ‘empowering’ the ngo representatives of civil society, they are also liable to weaken the public sector and increase crime rates, social inequality and ethnic tensions.footnote1”

“It is not surprising, therefore, that talk of Ukraine’s ‘decolonization’ is so much about symbols and identity, and so little about social transformation.”

“The oppressive situations faced by women, black people and others involve complex social relations, institutions and ideologies, reproduced within the warp and weft of capitalist relations. The black, gay and women’s liberation movements that arose in the 1960s and 70s fought to challenge the oppressive social order as a whole. While those oppressive relations persist, the question of universal emancipation has long since disappeared; instead, contemporary identity politics serve to amplify the particular voices that are deemed to require representation solely on the basis of their particularity. Instead of social redistribution, this politics calls primarily for recognition within the institutions which are not themselves put into question.footnote6 Moreover, because the groups that identity politics tends to essentialize are always internally diverse, it inevitably amplifies the more privileged voices who are legitimated to speak on behalf of the oppressed group that they may not really represent. In this way, it tends to reproduce and even legitimate fundamental social inequalities.”

I hope this helps clarify my beliefs and the clear up confusion that some PPs have when they ask how I can be against racism, colonialism etc but also against this new progressive ideology. Again going back to the quote that I had from the article about China. I am not a fan of Huntington but the quote I put was spot on - except like I said that I don't care that much about culture but the continuous focus on specific identity categories undermines solidarity amongst different identity groups which is necessary if we want to effectuate change. Here is the quote again:

"Progressive liberal ideology seeks to downplay cultural wholes. It envisions the world in universal, globalist terms, while reducing national ­societies to collections of atomized individuals. In its advanced form as identity politics, this version of liberalism views individuals as members of intersecting identity categories—categories that are not real communities and cultures, but rather demographic abstractions such as “Asian American” and “LGBTQIA+.” The word “community” may be added to such abstractions—as in “LGBTQIA+­ ­community”—but it is empty, for none of the identity-­politics categories are concrete communities with shared cultural lives. Indeed, the pseudo-­solidarity of identity politics further atomizes the individual by undermining the legitimacy of inherited cultures. This outcome is not accidental. Progressive liberals seek to weaken the hold of larger cultural collectives by erasing them from their accounts of the social world, accounts they disseminate using their dominance in the West’s humanities and social science departments."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to everyone who has been pushing back in this discussion and elsewhere. I am not sure how to pierce through the insanity that has captures so much of the education establishment, but it needs to happen. A significant course correction is necessary for the sanity and education of today’s students and society generally.

The left seems to be suffering from some sort of mass psychosis. They need to wakeup or be removed from positions of influence.

Oh, think of the children!

Yes, actually. This is a school forum. Children are actually what the focus is here. The fact that you mock that idea says everything—you are more concerned with pushing some objectionable gender or racial ideology than you are with what is actually good for kids. You shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near kids, including own, if you even have any.

You want to take away people’s kids bc their political views are different from yours? But the progressives are the ones we need to fear.

Keep politics out of schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is an example. My children’s private school DEI lead has set up to inclusivity groups. One related to sexual orientation and one to people of color. Which apparently only included black people. The lead staff member is black and said someone who looked like another staff member with white skin and brown eyes wouldn’t be able to join. In the name of inclusivity. My kids were really upset and said it doesn’t make sense. They were in 6th grade. The school also included discussion of gender and sexuality in the context of identity for elementary schools. And our school is moderate.

OP here. Interesting. Thanks PP and good to know. My kids are so young that we haven't been exposed to any of this yet (so my concerns are just general).

I honestly think the people who are initiating this stuff are true believers which is why I think the religion comparison is appropriate. But if you are at a moderate school with enough balance that people can speak freely, speak out. Our DEI person absolutely intended the talk about gender fluid as part of the DEI for elementary school kids until the parents got wind and freaked out. Parents felt that at the age when many kids haven’t even had basic sex ed and when many kids are just hitting puberty, adding this in was too much. The kids need to understand why their bodies are changing and what to expect and what their organs can do. That is what parents want for 5th graders. We didn’t want them literally confused but another layer of information talking about sexuality. It just isn’t necessary at such a young age. With the BIPOC club it was just super interesting to hear my kids say that how is it good for our society to start excluding people again based on race. The kids have learned about MLK and his views and this BIPOC club was directly contrary to that teaching. You can dress it up as a safe space etc but at bottom it is excluding people based on race. And that is racist. I am sure white southerners wanted blacks at the back of the bus so the white at the front could feel safe. Same same.

FYI, gender has nothing to do with sexuality. At all. If you are going to object, at least understand what you are objecting to. Maybe parents who don’t even understand the curriculum aren’t the best people to be second-guessing it. It’s like the popularly-elected Texas School Board deciding what counts as a scientific or historical fact. Unless you just want generation after generation of equally ignorant people without any intellectual advancement or progress at all, poorly-educated people shouldn’t be designing curriculum. I know you think your mom hunches are the gold standard for determining what’s developmentally appropriate at different ages, but there’s actually science on this question. And gender itself is a matter of scientific inquiry. If I asked you what makes a boy a boy, you might tell me a penis. But what about people who are born with both a or is and a vulva? Is that a boy? Or someone who is born with neither? Boy? Girl? You may say it’s a matter of chromosomes, but you’d be wrong there too. Chromosomes frequently don’t “match” genitalia. I hope you’ll take some time to read and learn about this before opining about what kids should learn at what ages. If any one manages to equip them with more basic biological information than you have demonstrated, they will be doing them a favor regardless of the context.

This is exactly what I’m trying to stay away from. A boy with a vulva? How did this happen to us and so quickly?!

The dumb, anti-scientific, woke mob, enabled by the self-enriching Democratic Party, made 10 times worse in bubble city DC where 95% folks vote one party and think the other one is Hitler.

You guys really need more intellectual curiosity. You need to read more. There have been intersex people since time immemorial. Intersex people have genitalia that include both male and female reproductive organs, and/or otherwise nonbinary genitalia. This has ALWAYS existed to the same degree it does now. Read a book and stop being so entrenched in your ignorance. As for chromosomes, you can start by reading this: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-science-of-sex-and-gender/

0.001% of the population needs 10% of my child’s curriculum time? Quite the opportunity cost.

We’re fine with Live and Let Live, but stop the activism and glorifying and mass confusion in the k-8 classrooms in Washington DC.

LIAR

What’s the school where the Personal Identity Project is all of 2nd grade literature and social studies for the whole year?

OP again. Oh weird after i clicked send it looked normal. As I was writing everything was right justified. Ignore the typos! Ok hopefully this is the last post I write! So long everyone!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I believe in diversity and equity. The way it is pushed these days is more like a religion where other opinions are not allowed (look at the Hamline University debacle.. I am muslim and every muslim I know thinks what happens is insane). I am a person who is an admirer of Edward Said's book Orientalism as well as the People's History of the United States. I am Arab so am staunchly anti-imperialist. But I think schools have gone overboard. Also there is very little critique of class. I get it - they are private schools. But it is hypocritical to be pushing all of this and ignore the class aspect.

My kids are young - Kindergarten and first grade so they haven't been exposed to a lot of this yet. But I am worried that there is some indoctrination going on.

I admire what you said, though the bolded above is interesting to me as the Arab world has a long history of empire itself, some of which contributed greatly to the world as we know it, though problematic in implementation of course. Why do you equate Arab/staunch anti-imperialism as a given? I would say most folks these days are staunchly anti-imperialist as products of our time, not ethnicity per se. Just curious.

Op here. Good question. But honestly too long of a discussion. Maybe some other time! But to summarize, I am specifically referring to the ongoing struggles of the Arab world against western colonialism and imperialism. As for empires in general my specific critique of western imperialism has a lot to do with conceptions of the nation state that western imperialism that brought and imposed on the rest of the world - specifically dividing ppl into different ethnicities etc. (this critique is multi layered though because some of this essentialism overlaps with certain conceptions of Arab nationalism). It is also related to critiques of modernity. That being said I agree with you - the history of empire is the history of the world and all empires have good and bad. Sorry I’m not being very eloquent. It is 11 pm after all. Perhaps I should look into this chat GPT hahaha. Also not sure what is wrong with the formatting of this oost .

OP I’m back again. Can’t help it lol!

Well some good news, Hamline University walked back on their position: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/17/us/hamline-lawsuit-prophet-muhammad-religion.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I think being criticized by Muslim professors, Muslim organizations etc was quite embarrassing lol. I do think the University’s apology is humorous - notice the passive voice. And if you reread the University’s President’s initial response she absolutely believed that the student’s feelings superseded academic freedom lol. Anyhow….

Also I thought this article in the Atlantic shows the danger of progressive “allies” speaking for us instead of allowing us to speak: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/01/hamline-university-minnesota-muhammad-academic-freedom/672742/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I believe in diversity and equity. The way it is pushed these days is more like a religion where other opinions are not allowed (look at the Hamline University debacle.. I am muslim and every muslim I know thinks what happens is insane). I am a person who is an admirer of Edward Said's book Orientalism as well as the People's History of the United States. I am Arab so am staunchly anti-imperialist. But I think schools have gone overboard. Also there is very little critique of class. I get it - they are private schools. But it is hypocritical to be pushing all of this and ignore the class aspect.

My kids are young - Kindergarten and first grade so they haven't been exposed to a lot of this yet. But I am worried that there is some indoctrination going on.

I admire what you said, though the bolded above is interesting to me as the Arab world has a long history of empire itself, some of which contributed greatly to the world as we know it, though problematic in implementation of course. Why do you equate Arab/staunch anti-imperialism as a given? I would say most folks these days are staunchly anti-imperialist as products of our time, not ethnicity per se. Just curious.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to everyone who has been pushing back in this discussion and elsewhere. I am not sure how to pierce through the insanity that has captures so much of the education establishment, but it needs to happen. A significant course correction is necessary for the sanity and education of today’s students and society generally.

The left seems to be suffering from some sort of mass psychosis. They need to wakeup or be removed from positions of influence.

Oh, think of the children!

Yes, actually. This is a school forum. Children are actually what the focus is here. The fact that you mock that idea says everything—you are more concerned with pushing some objectionable gender or racial ideology than you are with what is actually good for kids. You shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near kids, including own, if you even have any.

You want to take away people’s kids bc their political views are different from yours? But the progressives are the ones we need to fear.

No, I don’t want to take away people’s kids, and especially not because their political views are different. However, I do think that a parent who scoffs at the idea of giving due concern to the interests of kids needs to do some deep thinking about life, and how they are impacting their family.

Ok fine. I think I’m a better parent than a closed minded bigot like you.

I hope you know that with theses latest posts you have lost the support of the very few who were behind you. Mocking people when it comes to concern about their children is not a winning position ever.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is an example. My children’s private school DEI lead has set up to inclusivity groups. One related to sexual orientation and one to people of color. Which apparently only included black people. The lead staff member is black and said someone who looked like another staff member with white skin and brown eyes wouldn’t be able to join. In the name of inclusivity. My kids were really upset and said it doesn’t make sense. They were in 6th grade. The school also included discussion of gender and sexuality in the context of identity for elementary schools. And our school is moderate.

OP here. Interesting. Thanks PP and good to know. My kids are so young that we haven't been exposed to any of this yet (so my concerns are just general).

I honestly think the people who are initiating this stuff are true believers which is why I think the religion comparison is appropriate. But if you are at a moderate school with enough balance that people can speak freely, speak out. Our DEI person absolutely intended the talk about gender fluid as part of the DEI for elementary school kids until the parents got wind and freaked out. Parents felt that at the age when many kids haven’t even had basic sex ed and when many kids are just hitting puberty, adding this in was too much. The kids need to understand why their bodies are changing and what to expect and what their organs can do. That is what parents want for 5th graders. We didn’t want them literally confused but another layer of information talking about sexuality. It just isn’t necessary at such a young age. With the BIPOC club it was just super interesting to hear my kids say that how is it good for our society to start excluding people again based on race. The kids have learned about MLK and his views and this BIPOC club was directly contrary to that teaching. You can dress it up as a safe space etc but at bottom it is excluding people based on race. And that is racist. I am sure white southerners wanted blacks at the back of the bus so the white at the front could feel safe. Same same.

FYI, gender has nothing to do with sexuality. At all. If you are going to object, at least understand what you are objecting to. Maybe parents who don’t even understand the curriculum aren’t the best people to be second-guessing it. It’s like the popularly-elected Texas School Board deciding what counts as a scientific or historical fact. Unless you just want generation after generation of equally ignorant people without any intellectual advancement or progress at all, poorly-educated people shouldn’t be designing curriculum. I know you think your mom hunches are the gold standard for determining what’s developmentally appropriate at different ages, but there’s actually science on this question. And gender itself is a matter of scientific inquiry. If I asked you what makes a boy a boy, you might tell me a penis. But what about people who are born with both a or is and a vulva? Is that a boy? Or someone who is born with neither? Boy? Girl? You may say it’s a matter of chromosomes, but you’d be wrong there too. Chromosomes frequently don’t “match” genitalia. I hope you’ll take some time to read and learn about this before opining about what kids should learn at what ages. If any one manages to equip them with more basic biological information than you have demonstrated, they will be doing them a favor regardless of the context.

Please this argument is not in good faith. Very little of gender identity / trans inclusiveness is about people who are medically intersex.

+1

Many members of the intersex community have spoken about how they do not like how their struggles and issues have been both shoved aside and entirely distorted by current gender identity discussion. The PP needs to listen to intersex people and be respectful.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to everyone who has been pushing back in this discussion and elsewhere. I am not sure how to pierce through the insanity that has captures so much of the education establishment, but it needs to happen. A significant course correction is necessary for the sanity and education of today’s students and society generally.

The left seems to be suffering from some sort of mass psychosis. They need to wakeup or be removed from positions of influence.

Oh, think of the children!

Yes, actually. This is a school forum. Children are actually what the focus is here. The fact that you mock that idea says everything—you are more concerned with pushing some objectionable gender or racial ideology than you are with what is actually good for kids. You shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near kids, including own, if you even have any.

You want to take away people’s kids bc their political views are different from yours? But the progressives are the ones we need to fear.

No, I don’t want to take away people’s kids, and especially not because their political views are different. However, I do think that a parent who scoffs at the idea of giving due concern to the interests of kids needs to do some deep thinking about life, and how they are impacting their family.

Ok fine. I think I’m a better parent than a closed minded bigot like you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to everyone who has been pushing back in this discussion and elsewhere. I am not sure how to pierce through the insanity that has captures so much of the education establishment, but it needs to happen. A significant course correction is necessary for the sanity and education of today’s students and society generally.

The left seems to be suffering from some sort of mass psychosis. They need to wakeup or be removed from positions of influence.

Oh, think of the children!

Yes, actually. This is a school forum. Children are actually what the focus is here. The fact that you mock that idea says everything—you are more concerned with pushing some objectionable gender or racial ideology than you are with what is actually good for kids. You shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near kids, including own, if you even have any.

You want to take away people’s kids bc their political views are different from yours? But the progressives are the ones we need to fear.

No, I don’t want to take away people’s kids, and especially not because their political views are different. However, I do think that a parent who scoffs at the idea of giving due concern to the interests of kids needs to do some deep thinking about life, and how they are impacting their family.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to everyone who has been pushing back in this discussion and elsewhere. I am not sure how to pierce through the insanity that has captures so much of the education establishment, but it needs to happen. A significant course correction is necessary for the sanity and education of today’s students and society generally.

The left seems to be suffering from some sort of mass psychosis. They need to wakeup or be removed from positions of influence.

Oh, think of the children!

Yes, actually. This is a school forum. Children are actually what the focus is here. The fact that you mock that idea says everything—you are more concerned with pushing some objectionable gender or racial ideology than you are with what is actually good for kids. You shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near kids, including own, if you even have any.

You want to take away people’s kids bc their political views are different from yours? But the progressives are the ones we need to fear.

Don’t bother. Just go straight to the well deserved mockery.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to everyone who has been pushing back in this discussion and elsewhere. I am not sure how to pierce through the insanity that has captures so much of the education establishment, but it needs to happen. A significant course correction is necessary for the sanity and education of today’s students and society generally.

The left seems to be suffering from some sort of mass psychosis. They need to wakeup or be removed from positions of influence.

Oh, think of the children!

Yes, actually. This is a school forum. Children are actually what the focus is here. The fact that you mock that idea says everything—you are more concerned with pushing some objectionable gender or racial ideology than you are with what is actually good for kids. You shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near kids, including own, if you even have any.

You want to take away people’s kids bc their political views are different from yours? But the progressives are the ones we need to fear.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to everyone who has been pushing back in this discussion and elsewhere. I am not sure how to pierce through the insanity that has captures so much of the education establishment, but it needs to happen. A significant course correction is necessary for the sanity and education of today’s students and society generally.

The left seems to be suffering from some sort of mass psychosis. They need to wakeup or be removed from positions of influence.

Oh, think of the children!

Yes, actually. This is a school forum. Children are actually what the focus is here. The fact that you mock that idea says everything—you are more concerned with pushing some objectionable gender or racial ideology than you are with what is actually good for kids. You shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near kids, including own, if you even have any.

Oh, Mommy what did you do in the Great War against wokeism?

Well, honey, I chastised people on an anonymous forum.

Keep going and find out.

And then after chastising them, sweetie, do you know what I did? I issued vague threats against them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to everyone who has been pushing back in this discussion and elsewhere. I am not sure how to pierce through the insanity that has captures so much of the education establishment, but it needs to happen. A significant course correction is necessary for the sanity and education of today’s students and society generally.

The left seems to be suffering from some sort of mass psychosis. They need to wakeup or be removed from positions of influence.

Oh, think of the children!

Yes, actually. This is a school forum. Children are actually what the focus is here. The fact that you mock that idea says everything—you are more concerned with pushing some objectionable gender or racial ideology than you are with what is actually good for kids. You shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near kids, including own, if you even have any.

Oh, Mommy what did you do in the Great War against wokeism?

Well, honey, I chastised people on an anonymous forum.

Keep going and find out.