Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I view ITS’s policy of not adding kids after Count Day much differently than any school that simply does not allow new students after initial grades. I agree both are bad in a public school— and charters ARE publics, even though they sometimes like to pretend they aren’t. But this ITS policy isn’t nearly as egregious to me. I get the rationale (it really can be tough on classrooms to add new students after the kids have finally settled in, as I know well as a DCPS parent). It’s a reality of school, but it’s tough on everyone.

But schools like BASIS or Latin refusing to backfill in subsequent years is really craven. Even private schools take kids mid-MS or mid-HS! A good school would not struggle to incorporate them. It really looks like an obvious grab for higher test scores. It’s gross. The ITS thing is annoying but doesn’t offend me in the same way.

We have been through this before, people. BASIS is unique in DC because it does not do social promotion. Kids don't have to leave, but they will be required to repeat a grade if they do not pass the comprehensive exam. No exceptions. BASIS wanted to accept kids after 5th. They do at other BASIS schools. But DCPCSB won't allow them to administer a test to put the kids in the proper grade level (without regard to age). It would make no sense to have a school that tells kids that are not meeting the standard they have to repeat a grade but let new kids enter into that higher grade even if they can't show mastery of the material.

You can disagree with whether BASIS should socially promote. But that's the argument/policy disagreement. "Backfilling" is a red herring to avoid talking about BASIS's social promotion policy.

Neighborhood schools have to take kids who are below grade. Even those who speak literally no English at all. They have to suck it up and deal with it as best they can. But wah, BASIS couldn't possibly cope without an entrance test. Even though other schools have to.

The idea with backfilling is that we don't want to create a system where if your 5th grade lottery number is bad, you have no hope for getting into a good school. What would the school system be like if every school allowed itself to do what BASIS is doing? Do we want to live like that? BASIS is free-riding on other schools' willingness to handle the tougher kids and do the hardest educational work. But feel free to pat yourself on the back for those great test scores!

Your response is all over the map and internally inconsistent. At one point you ask, what would it be like if every school stopped social promotion and required kids to actual master material before moving to the next grade - PERISH THE THOUGHT and clutching my pearls. You aren't even making the case you think you are. If BASIS was allowed to administer the test and put kids in appropriate grades they'd take backfills and then there would be hope of getting in after 5th - problem solved! Neighborhood schools have to take kids who enroll and are forced by DC policies to put them in their grade level by age, regardless of whet they actually know. And then DC makes it impossible to hold a kid back so they get moved along and graduate with a useless degree.

BASIS has higher standards than all other schools. I'm ok with that .

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do BASIS students ever leave for academic or social reasons? If so, where do they go?

With all due respect, that is a really dumb question. Of course they do. That's true of every school on earth. If a kid wants a robust arts and theater program then BASIS is a bad fit. If they want to play D1 sports in college it is a bad fit. If they want a large school it is a bad fit.

I was educated in elite prep schools. It was the best education money could buy. And kids left for larger public schools, or better sports programs, or to go to other elite prep schools with larger theater budgets, or because they didn't have the friend groups they wanted/needed.

The point is, when comparing PARCC scores, you have to take into account the fact that BASIS controls the composition of their student body in a way that a traditional neighborhood DCPS school cannot. Some students who leave BASIS for academic reasons go to their DCPS school which takes all comers who are IB, whatever their strengths/weaknesses, whenever they show up. BASIS does not have to do this. They don’t even have to backfill with the next student on their lottery waitlist. Their model depends on DCPS being there to absorb at least some of the kids who leave.

BASIS is a good school and does well by its students. It is a particular model that works well for some and it is a good thing it is available for those students who thrive there. BUT comparing BASIS PARCC scores with schools that do not control who sits in their classrooms to the same degree is not useful.

It was not a stupid question; it was a leading question that you followed.

Your analysis is a bit off. True, Basis doesn’t admit after 5th grade (with some previous minor exceptions for 6th grade). But that doesn’t mean that Basis “controls the composition of their student body.” Sure, some kids leave because they can’t handle Basis. But some leave because the parents move or opt for private. In fact, every year, Basis loses some top students that it doesn’t and can’t replace. Worse, if top kids want to go to Basis after 5th grade, they can’t.

In comparison, other schools admit all comers, either because the kids are in-bounds or they get in through the lottery. Some of these are poor students and some are top students; they go to DCPS schools or other charters, not Basis. If DC allowed Basis to backfill slots with top students admitted through some sort of application/testing process, then you could fairly say that they “control the composition of their student body.” However, DC doesn’t permit that for charters.

Can someone explain this to me? Is this just something that applies to charter middle and high schools? Because you can absolutely lottery into charter elementaries past PK or K, and that's not even very uncommon.

And it doesn't apply to all charter MSs, because for instance ITS takes kids at both 5th and 6th grade.

So DCPS doesn't allow BASIS to backfill... what about Latin? And what is the reasoning.

Elementary school parent here starting to try and figure out middle school so I have no first hand experience. Talk to me like I'm new here!

That's not how it works at all. It's not up to DCPS. BASIS, since it's a charter, is under the jurisdiction of the DC Public Charter School Board. And BASIS *chooses* not to backfill. Why? Oh, because their program is oh so special and nobody could possibly do well if they entered after 5th. Sorry no, it's actually because attritioning out the low performers and not letting anyone in allows BASIS to say it gets good results, when really it's just cherry-picking the kids.

Latin chooses to let in some kids in 9th, not sure why, but that's what they've decided to do.

ITS lets in kids throughout the year, although not after Count Day in early October. They'll tell you it's oh so hard, oh so disruptive, to let in new kids mid-year, as if DCPS and most schools nationwide don't have to do that as a matter of course. ITS has to let in new kids for upper elementary and middle school because their attrition is so high, they'd run out of kids if they didn't.

Before you accuse me of being anti-charter, I will say that I'm a parent at one of the 3 schools I discussed. I just don't believe the excuses they make for avoiding the oh-so-difficult work of incorporating new kids.

No. It is because they don't do social promotion. Kids who can't meet the standard have to repeat the grade. Why would they allow new kids to enter a grade with material they haven't mastered when kids already admitted weren't allowed to promote?

Your snark and self assurance would be easier to take if you had any idea WTF you were talking about.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I view ITS’s policy of not adding kids after Count Day much differently than any school that simply does not allow new students after initial grades. I agree both are bad in a public school— and charters ARE publics, even though they sometimes like to pretend they aren’t. But this ITS policy isn’t nearly as egregious to me. I get the rationale (it really can be tough on classrooms to add new students after the kids have finally settled in, as I know well as a DCPS parent). It’s a reality of school, but it’s tough on everyone.

But schools like BASIS or Latin refusing to backfill in subsequent years is really craven. Even private schools take kids mid-MS or mid-HS! A good school would not struggle to incorporate them. It really looks like an obvious grab for higher test scores. It’s gross. The ITS thing is annoying but doesn’t offend me in the same way.

We have been through this before, people. BASIS is unique in DC because it does not do social promotion. Kids don't have to leave, but they will be required to repeat a grade if they do not pass the comprehensive exam. No exceptions. BASIS wanted to accept kids after 5th. They do at other BASIS schools. But DCPCSB won't allow them to administer a test to put the kids in the proper grade level (without regard to age). It would make no sense to have a school that tells kids that are not meeting the standard they have to repeat a grade but let new kids enter into that higher grade even if they can't show mastery of the material.

You can disagree with whether BASIS should socially promote. But that's the argument/policy disagreement. "Backfilling" is a red herring to avoid talking about BASIS's social promotion policy.

Neighborhood schools have to take kids who are below grade. Even those who speak literally no English at all. They have to suck it up and deal with it as best they can. But wah, BASIS couldn't possibly cope without an entrance test. Even though other schools have to.

The idea with backfilling is that we don't want to create a system where if your 5th grade lottery number is bad, you have no hope for getting into a good school. What would the school system be like if every school allowed itself to do what BASIS is doing? Do we want to live like that? BASIS is free-riding on other schools' willingness to handle the tougher kids and do the hardest educational work. But feel free to pat yourself on the back for those great test scores!

Anonymous wrote:I view ITS’s policy of not adding kids after Count Day much differently than any school that simply does not allow new students after initial grades. I agree both are bad in a public school— and charters ARE publics, even though they sometimes like to pretend they aren’t. But this ITS policy isn’t nearly as egregious to me. I get the rationale (it really can be tough on classrooms to add new students after the kids have finally settled in, as I know well as a DCPS parent). It’s a reality of school, but it’s tough on everyone.

But schools like BASIS or Latin refusing to backfill in subsequent years is really craven. Even private schools take kids mid-MS or mid-HS! A good school would not struggle to incorporate them. It really looks like an obvious grab for higher test scores. It’s gross. The ITS thing is annoying but doesn’t offend me in the same way.

We have been through this before, people. BASIS is unique in DC because it does not do social promotion. Kids don't have to leave, but they will be required to repeat a grade if they do not pass the comprehensive exam. No exceptions. BASIS wanted to accept kids after 5th. They do at other BASIS schools. But DCPCSB won't allow them to administer a test to put the kids in the proper grade level (without regard to age). It would make no sense to have a school that tells kids that are not meeting the standard they have to repeat a grade but let new kids enter into that higher grade even if they can't show mastery of the material.

You can disagree with whether BASIS should socially promote. But that's the argument/policy disagreement. "Backfilling" is a red herring to avoid talking about BASIS's social promotion policy.

Anonymous wrote:I view ITS’s policy of not adding kids after Count Day much differently than any school that simply does not allow new students after initial grades. I agree both are bad in a public school— and charters ARE publics, even though they sometimes like to pretend they aren’t. But this ITS policy isn’t nearly as egregious to me. I get the rationale (it really can be tough on classrooms to add new students after the kids have finally settled in, as I know well as a DCPS parent). It’s a reality of school, but it’s tough on everyone.

But schools like BASIS or Latin refusing to backfill in subsequent years is really craven. Even private schools take kids mid-MS or mid-HS! A good school would not struggle to incorporate them. It really looks like an obvious grab for higher test scores. It’s gross. The ITS thing is annoying but doesn’t offend me in the same way.

But is it really *that* hard? So hard that the supposedly inspired teachers at ITS aren't skillful enough to incorporate even one kid after Count Day? (Yet at the same time, it's fine and dandy before Count Day.)

Kids who move into the District mid-year have the right to go to a school, and to refuse to take any is to stick DCPS with more than a fair share of new arrivals. ITS is just saying "This is someone else's problem, we refuse to do a share of the hard work, PS our test scores are so great!." If it's really so awfully difficult, then isn't it therefore a bad thing to put it all on DCPS? I think they could at least accept siblings-- they'll probably have to take the sibling next year anyway so why not just do it already?

I view ITS’s policy of not adding kids after Count Day much differently than any school that simply does not allow new students after initial grades. I agree both are bad in a public school— and charters ARE publics, even though they sometimes like to pretend they aren’t. But this ITS policy isn’t nearly as egregious to me. I get the rationale (it really can be tough on classrooms to add new students after the kids have finally settled in, as I know well as a DCPS parent). It’s a reality of school, but it’s tough on everyone.

But schools like BASIS or Latin refusing to backfill in subsequent years is really craven. Even private schools take kids mid-MS or mid-HS! A good school would not struggle to incorporate them. It really looks like an obvious grab for higher test scores. It’s gross. The ITS thing is annoying but doesn’t offend me in the same way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If adding new kids, which most schools in this country do as a matter of course, is too haaaaard, what does that say about a school? Are their teachers unable to handle it? Are their students hostile and unwelcoming?

If attrition is so high that backfilling would be a large number of kids, why is that? Maybe the real problem is retention. Why are people leaving? Dig a little deeper into these rationales, people.

DCPS schools don’t have to add huge numbers of kids, just kids that move IB. Some principals will add more OOB for funding reasons. Charters have worked out funding and educational models that allow them to not replace kids. That kind of flexibility is the whole point of charters.

Ok, but adding literally no kids-- not even siblings-- is pretty harsh. "Flexibility"? Or taking the easy path?

ITS denied a PK3 kid's twin sibling a few years ago, even though there was a spot, because it was after Count Day. That's a cold way to treat a 3-year-old.

Anonymous wrote:If adding new kids, which most schools in this country do as a matter of course, is too haaaaard, what does that say about a school? Are their teachers unable to handle it? Are their students hostile and unwelcoming?

If attrition is so high that backfilling would be a large number of kids, why is that? Maybe the real problem is retention. Why are people leaving? Dig a little deeper into these rationales, people.

DCPS schools don’t have to add huge numbers of kids, just kids that move IB. Some principals will add more OOB for funding reasons. Charters have worked out funding and educational models that allow them to not replace kids. That kind of flexibility is the whole point of charters.

Anonymous wrote:If adding new kids, which most schools in this country do as a matter of course, is too haaaaard, what does that say about a school? Are their teachers unable to handle it? Are their students hostile and unwelcoming?

If attrition is so high that backfilling would be a large number of kids, why is that? Maybe the real problem is retention. Why are people leaving? Dig a little deeper into these rationales, people.

Particularly in the case of ITS, which claims that it's training great teachers for the benefit of the whole city. Bringing in new kids is a key skill that teachers at DCPS and many charters are expected to learn. So wah. An empty seat is a public resource squandered.

If adding new kids, which most schools in this country do as a matter of course, is too haaaaard, what does that say about a school? Are their teachers unable to handle it? Are their students hostile and unwelcoming?

If attrition is so high that backfilling would be a large number of kids, why is that? Maybe the real problem is retention. Why are people leaving? Dig a little deeper into these rationales, people.

Anonymous wrote:PP who is asking about this - it's a good question.

There are some charter elementary schools that also don't take any new kids after a certain grade. The charter school board now says that they are generally against this practice, but some (older) schools have been able to keep it in place.

Historically, LAMB was notorious for this - they accepted LOTS of PK3 kids and then no one at any other grade, and would experience a good bit of attrition so their 5th grade class was tiny compared to their PK3 and PK4. Yu Ying is another that doesn't backfill - if you look at the number of students in K vs. 4th, you'll see a decrease.

For a while, MV didn't take kids after K - I think they agreed to do so as part of the expansion to the new campus and now they definitely need to because of attrition. But it's reasonable to conclude that accepting 4th or 5th graders with no Spanish language background into a dual language school makes it harder for MV to serve everyone. (DCPS requires kids coming into a dual language school in upper grades to pass a language competency test but charters aren't allowed to do that.)

Schools that don't backfill seats have a much more "controlled" student (and testing) population than schools that take new kids every year.

The thing about that is, kids coming in for 4th or 5th may have a dual language background. They could be coming in from any other Spanish school, or speak Spanish at home, or have moved here from a Spanish-speaking country. Most parents wouldn't just chuck a 4th or 5th grader into a DL environment with no language skills. So I don't really believe their rationale. It's about avoiding doing the hard work. And as for MV serving "everyone", refusing to take new kids is refusing to serve those kids at all, so how is that serving "everyone"? It might serve their current kids, or make life easier for their teachers. But that's not the same thing.

PS other schools have to take in children who speak no English, at all grade levels. How is this any different?

Montessori schools will also tell you that letting in kids without a Montessori background waters down their oh-so-special program for their sparkling shining Montessori flowers who would be totally screwed if new kids came in, even siblings of current students. But most of them have so much attrition that they have to allow it. Running out of kids and making big budget cuts isn't what Maria Montessori intended.

PP who is asking about this - it's a good question.

There are some charter elementary schools that also don't take any new kids after a certain grade. The charter school board now says that they are generally against this practice, but some (older) schools have been able to keep it in place.

Historically, LAMB was notorious for this - they accepted LOTS of PK3 kids and then no one at any other grade, and would experience a good bit of attrition so their 5th grade class was tiny compared to their PK3 and PK4. Yu Ying is another that doesn't backfill - if you look at the number of students in K vs. 4th, you'll see a decrease.

For a while, MV didn't take kids after K - I think they agreed to do so as part of the expansion to the new campus and now they definitely need to because of attrition. But it's reasonable to conclude that accepting 4th or 5th graders with no Spanish language background into a dual language school makes it harder for MV to serve everyone. (DCPS requires kids coming into a dual language school in upper grades to pass a language competency test but charters aren't allowed to do that.)

Schools that don't backfill seats have a much more "controlled" student (and testing) population than schools that take new kids every year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do BASIS students ever leave for academic or social reasons? If so, where do they go?

With all due respect, that is a really dumb question. Of course they do. That's true of every school on earth. If a kid wants a robust arts and theater program then BASIS is a bad fit. If they want to play D1 sports in college it is a bad fit. If they want a large school it is a bad fit.

I was educated in elite prep schools. It was the best education money could buy. And kids left for larger public schools, or better sports programs, or to go to other elite prep schools with larger theater budgets, or because they didn't have the friend groups they wanted/needed.

The point is, when comparing PARCC scores, you have to take into account the fact that BASIS controls the composition of their student body in a way that a traditional neighborhood DCPS school cannot. Some students who leave BASIS for academic reasons go to their DCPS school which takes all comers who are IB, whatever their strengths/weaknesses, whenever they show up. BASIS does not have to do this. They don’t even have to backfill with the next student on their lottery waitlist. Their model depends on DCPS being there to absorb at least some of the kids who leave.

BASIS is a good school and does well by its students. It is a particular model that works well for some and it is a good thing it is available for those students who thrive there. BUT comparing BASIS PARCC scores with schools that do not control who sits in their classrooms to the same degree is not useful.

It was not a stupid question; it was a leading question that you followed.

Your analysis is a bit off. True, Basis doesn’t admit after 5th grade (with some previous minor exceptions for 6th grade). But that doesn’t mean that Basis “controls the composition of their student body.” Sure, some kids leave because they can’t handle Basis. But some leave because the parents move or opt for private. In fact, every year, Basis loses some top students that it doesn’t and can’t replace. Worse, if top kids want to go to Basis after 5th grade, they can’t.

In comparison, other schools admit all comers, either because the kids are in-bounds or they get in through the lottery. Some of these are poor students and some are top students; they go to DCPS schools or other charters, not Basis. If DC allowed Basis to backfill slots with top students admitted through some sort of application/testing process, then you could fairly say that they “control the composition of their student body.” However, DC doesn’t permit that for charters.

Can someone explain this to me? Is this just something that applies to charter middle and high schools? Because you can absolutely lottery into charter elementaries past PK or K, and that's not even very uncommon.

And it doesn't apply to all charter MSs, because for instance ITS takes kids at both 5th and 6th grade.

So DCPS doesn't allow BASIS to backfill... what about Latin? And what is the reasoning.

Elementary school parent here starting to try and figure out middle school so I have no first hand experience. Talk to me like I'm new here!

That's not how it works at all. It's not up to DCPS. BASIS, since it's a charter, is under the jurisdiction of the DC Public Charter School Board. And BASIS *chooses* not to backfill. Why? Oh, because their program is oh so special and nobody could possibly do well if they entered after 5th. Sorry no, it's actually because attritioning out the low performers and not letting anyone in allows BASIS to say it gets good results, when really it's just cherry-picking the kids.

Latin chooses to let in some kids in 9th, not sure why, but that's what they've decided to do.

ITS lets in kids throughout the year, although not after Count Day in early October. They'll tell you it's oh so hard, oh so disruptive, to let in new kids mid-year, as if DCPS and most schools nationwide don't have to do that as a matter of course. ITS has to let in new kids for upper elementary and middle school because their attrition is so high, they'd run out of kids if they didn't.

Before you accuse me of being anti-charter, I will say that I'm a parent at one of the 3 schools I discussed. I just don't believe the excuses they make for avoiding the oh-so-difficult work of incorporating new kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do BASIS students ever leave for academic or social reasons? If so, where do they go?

With all due respect, that is a really dumb question. Of course they do. That's true of every school on earth. If a kid wants a robust arts and theater program then BASIS is a bad fit. If they want to play D1 sports in college it is a bad fit. If they want a large school it is a bad fit.

I was educated in elite prep schools. It was the best education money could buy. And kids left for larger public schools, or better sports programs, or to go to other elite prep schools with larger theater budgets, or because they didn't have the friend groups they wanted/needed.

The point is, when comparing PARCC scores, you have to take into account the fact that BASIS controls the composition of their student body in a way that a traditional neighborhood DCPS school cannot. Some students who leave BASIS for academic reasons go to their DCPS school which takes all comers who are IB, whatever their strengths/weaknesses, whenever they show up. BASIS does not have to do this. They don’t even have to backfill with the next student on their lottery waitlist. Their model depends on DCPS being there to absorb at least some of the kids who leave.

BASIS is a good school and does well by its students. It is a particular model that works well for some and it is a good thing it is available for those students who thrive there. BUT comparing BASIS PARCC scores with schools that do not control who sits in their classrooms to the same degree is not useful.

It was not a stupid question; it was a leading question that you followed.

Your analysis is a bit off. True, Basis doesn’t admit after 5th grade (with some previous minor exceptions for 6th grade). But that doesn’t mean that Basis “controls the composition of their student body.” Sure, some kids leave because they can’t handle Basis. But some leave because the parents move or opt for private. In fact, every year, Basis loses some top students that it doesn’t and can’t replace. Worse, if top kids want to go to Basis after 5th grade, they can’t.

In comparison, other schools admit all comers, either because the kids are in-bounds or they get in through the lottery. Some of these are poor students and some are top students; they go to DCPS schools or other charters, not Basis. If DC allowed Basis to backfill slots with top students admitted through some sort of application/testing process, then you could fairly say that they “control the composition of their student body.” However, DC doesn’t permit that for charters.

Can someone explain this to me? Is this just something that applies to charter middle and high schools? Because you can absolutely lottery into charter elementaries past PK or K, and that's not even very uncommon.

And it doesn't apply to all charter MSs, because for instance ITS takes kids at both 5th and 6th grade.

So DCPS doesn't allow BASIS to backfill... what about Latin? And what is the reasoning.

Elementary school parent here starting to try and figure out middle school so I have no first hand experience. Talk to me like I'm new here!