Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

What top college grads are looking for a government position or teacher position?

Until top students consider it a respected, well-paid profession, we are stuck with only a handful of passionate top students. The rest are the dregs.

Who on here actually dreams that their kid becomes a teacher?

I was a prior poster, and I said STATE government. Federal employees are paid better than state government employees.

I must have missed the post. I was referring back to this comment: "Teacher pay in this region aligns with the pay to other government employees with similar education."

Anyway, that's even worse. What top college grads are looking for a STATE government position? Zero.

Seriously. How much do you want teachers to be paid? More than all of the top State officials?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am pro union and I don’t see it as the unions’ job to advocate for educational quality- their job is to advocate for the teachers’ interests.

It’s like expecting a union of Amazon workers to advocate for the customers- sorry that’s not their interest. It is a worker organization.

If you want higher quality teachers then teaching should be a higher paid and more respected profession like it is in other advanced countries. If it were a more competitive field you would see higher quality candidates.

So, it sounds like indeed, that unions confer no direct benefit to educational outcomes. So far, the only argument that I have seen is that blue areas have both unions and better educational outcomes. But it's not clear why that would be the causal connection and not other policies related to local politics. Or simple wealth.

The argument for a union is not for better products, it’s for better quality of life for the workers. Better products are often a byproduct. If unions do confer benefits to education it is an indirect result. I have no issues with this. It is just the definition of a union. I’m a little surprised at the naïveté of people who think the union is operating for the benefits of students or their parents. That’s just not their function.

The union is literally making claims about how they're speaking for the benefit of students or their parents. And this is why I am shocked at seeing any parent take union claims at their word. They're not trying to help us. As you said, they don't care.

Where is "the union" saying this? Are you mistaking parents as "the union"?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

What top college grads are looking for a government position or teacher position?

Until top students consider it a respected, well-paid profession, we are stuck with only a handful of passionate top students. The rest are the dregs.

Who on here actually dreams that their kid becomes a teacher?

I was a prior poster, and I said STATE government. Federal employees are paid better than state government employees.

I must have missed the post. I was referring back to this comment: "Teacher pay in this region aligns with the pay to other government employees with similar education."

Anyway, that's even worse. What top college grads are looking for a STATE government position? Zero.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

^^no matter what data you give to these people, they will always claim that something ELSE is the problem. Like I could go out of my way to point out that teachers also get increases every year, and that they can also train for higher positions, but it wouldn't matter. Next she'd say that the problem is at the high end. Or in general prestige or comparing master's degrees or something. There's no point in arguing with someone who produces no actual non-anecdotal data and who rejects all of your data because they don't like the conclusion.

Lol. I’m actually a parent, anti-unions in general, have been appalled at teachers this whole time. The problem is low teacher pay around here. It doesn’t attract good, smart people to the field. Look at how they type. There’s some teacher on the VA schools board who can’t understand apostrophe usage. They’re a bunch of career changers and people getting their MRS degrees. You can’t attract better people to field without better pay. Yes I get that the contracts are for 10 months but at some point, the pay is the pay, and any summer job they’d get would likely be in the $10-$15/hr range so doesn’t make up for the 2 months in the summer.

Better pay and then align benefits to be more like the private sector. People need money now to pay those student loans, not the promise of a pension in the future ... maybe. We treat teaching as a “calling,” some noble thing like being a nun or something, that we then justify paying teachers less. It needs to be professionalized just like any other occupation.

How do you propose to pay private wages for a public job? Also, how much do you think teachers should be making? $150,000 for 10 months? 200,000?

Teachers in many European countries are fairly compensated. We could do it here in the US too. I don’t know specifics but good grief. Who can live as a single adult in the DC area making, like, $60k? Which is what teachers make after 8ish years. It’s just a really, really unappealing amount of money in a more expensive area. The 8 year fed, nurse, computer programmer .... all doing much better with similar levels of education.

In our area, teachers are some of the highest paid in the country and its a reasonable salary. The issue is the cost of living in terms of housing. Majority of teachers are doing their jobs as assigned. There will always be a group of ok to bad teachers and that's a different issue and has nothing to do with all teachers are sitting at home doing nothing during DL. The teacher hate is insane. The real issue is as parents you don't want to handle one of the biggest parts of your child's youth, which is education and want free child care/support so you can wipe your hands of it during the day.

I'm not the ed research poster, but I think the issue is that many policies that had to be enacted don't make teachers or schools look all that great, so teachers don't go around singing the praises of those policies.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is political.
Allocation of resources in any municipality is done by political leaders. Priorities are set by those same leaders.

Frankly, the politics of race has played a large role in shuttering schools. Minorities have been hit hard by Covid - and have not demanded schools reopen out of well founded health concerns.

In the name of “equity” politicians have kept schools closed. The DMV has a large minority population and no leader wants to prioritize an issue that is not supported by a large group of people.

Of course it’s political in the DMV.

So making sure that children of color have access to the same things that their white peers do is politics now? I thought that was basic human decency. It isn interesting how comfortable people are with unfairness in the system as long as they are on the winning side of it but when the coin flips, "That's not fair" is the cry.

If you weren't such a union-hating asshole who fear collective action, then all kids could get the same education.

Where have unions gotten smaller class sizes or science-based literacy programs? In my state the (non-collective bargaining) union isn't pushing for these things.

Since your googler is broken:
https://www.aft.org/periodical/american-educator/winter-2006-2007/nurturing-teacher-knowledge
https://www.aft.org/periodical/american-educator/winter-2006-2007/erd-twenty-five-years-union-sponsored

Also, teacher unions promote professional development. Our district wants to move towards structured literacy but hasn’t offered teachers much yet for PD. If they had a teacher union pushing for PD that would happen more quickly.

Teacher unions also raise the level of discussion of education policy. They give teachers a seat at the table. Right now they have no voice in VA. People don’t respect teachers or the expertise they offer. Certainly not the right mindset if VA wants to improve its schools.

Having more teachers with a seat at the table does nothing for education policy. There are people who study education policy out there. These people should be in charge. Teachers don't know anything outside of their classroom/school.

That’s a ridiculous sentiment. The people who work in education policy are so far removed from students and classrooms. They’ve been allowed to dictate every policy decision that undermines public schools and efforts to educate children. Parents don’t know anything about it-they just know their own children. Fixed it for you.

Oh, I see. You think I am a parent. I am not. I do have knowledge about teachers and education policy, however. You have an incoherent view of education policy. You seem to be blaming everything bad on policy, and can't see any of the good. If you care in the least about equity, you will realize just how much policy has to do with it.

What is incoherent? The pile of evidence that people who work in educational policy have done a terrible job? What good has anyone in educational policy done? Not succeeded in (ever) funding IDEA? Not integrating schools? Forcing schools to administer federally mandated state tests (as the federal government did literally yesterday) during the pandemic? Funneling hundreds of millions of dollars to Pearson and other big testing corporations, instead of toward literally anything that benefits students? Allowing tax dollars to be funneled to charters, starving our public schools? Creating loan forgiveness policies that deny nearly every application? Allowing predatory for profit colleges to take advantage of working class people and immigrants? You’re right. All of these policies have been genius.

See, you are picking and choosing policies that you don't like. Without evidence-based policy, we would not have a lot of the things we currently do. Rural schools. FAPE. Reduced discrimination. Increased integration. 504 and IEPs. Any accountability. Teacher credentialing. All of the stuff that seems equitable to you about schools aside from the classroom-level is done through policy. But because this is the water you swim in, you can't see how this was created through policy at a number of levels.

I mean, I shouldn't really be arguing with anyone who can't imagine what life would be like if each teacher got to choose their students, accountability measures, and inclusivity for themselves.

Many of the policies I listed are extremely recent, and absolutely terrible for students and teachers alike. It is a mistake to assume that “experts” outside the field are better equipped to make these decisions than the people implementing them on the ground. People love to gripe about how our school system needs to be overhauled, and I think many teachers agree. I don’t know why anyone thinks the best way to do this is to hire more overpriced, out of touch consultants, rather than to include career educators in these decisions and policies. I don’t see a single point of evidence that these “policy experts” have any sort of insight or expertise in the field that makes them better equipped than the teachers and administrators who actually run our schools. You don’t have to argue with me at all. The horrible educational policies that have destroyed our country’s education system speak for themselves. Many of the things you’re listing are ideas and not policies (reduced discrimination, “any accountability”).

Anonymous wrote:Actually maybe that's some of the source of the confusion; people are talking about different areas, perhaps?

There absolutely are differences regionally. I as another PP and am commenting on teacher pay in this area. Teaching is a government job. Government jobs have pros and cons. A con is that the potential to earn a larger salary is limited, and often corresponds with time on the job. The pro is that the employment tends to be more stable and your earnings increase the longer you are on the job. Plus, the benefits are good.

Actually maybe that's some of the source of the confusion; people are talking about different areas, perhaps?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

^^no matter what data you give to these people, they will always claim that something ELSE is the problem. Like I could go out of my way to point out that teachers also get increases every year, and that they can also train for higher positions, but it wouldn't matter. Next she'd say that the problem is at the high end. Or in general prestige or comparing master's degrees or something. There's no point in arguing with someone who produces no actual non-anecdotal data and who rejects all of your data because they don't like the conclusion.

Lol. I’m actually a parent, anti-unions in general, have been appalled at teachers this whole time. The problem is low teacher pay around here. It doesn’t attract good, smart people to the field. Look at how they type. There’s some teacher on the VA schools board who can’t understand apostrophe usage. They’re a bunch of career changers and people getting their MRS degrees. You can’t attract better people to field without better pay. Yes I get that the contracts are for 10 months but at some point, the pay is the pay, and any summer job they’d get would likely be in the $10-$15/hr range so doesn’t make up for the 2 months in the summer.

Better pay and then align benefits to be more like the private sector. People need money now to pay those student loans, not the promise of a pension in the future ... maybe. We treat teaching as a “calling,” some noble thing like being a nun or something, that we then justify paying teachers less. It needs to be professionalized just like any other occupation.

The pay IS aligned with the private sector. Read the above cited stats. Teachers make comparable or more than others with similar backgrounds. And that's not even including what they could make in the summer. I would also imagine that teachers receive better benefits, on average, and get more holidays, etc. I agree that there are shit aspects of teaching, but there are also nice aspects. It seems at least in unionized areas it is very difficult to get fired for doing a crappy job, so that's a plus (on par with government employees).

I also agree that there are some real duds in the teaching profession, but there are duds in any job. Are they on average duds? Are the majority duds? I don't think so.

I'm also sort of at a crossroads as to whether teaching is some put-upon profession or whether it is an average-to-slightly-better-than-average job. I used to really agree that teachers got the shit-end of the stick, but looking at data and thinking about it, it's really not that bad.

I'm the PP, and note that I'm talking specifically in DC and the close DMV. Nationally, there seem to be different things going on.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

^^no matter what data you give to these people, they will always claim that something ELSE is the problem. Like I could go out of my way to point out that teachers also get increases every year, and that they can also train for higher positions, but it wouldn't matter. Next she'd say that the problem is at the high end. Or in general prestige or comparing master's degrees or something. There's no point in arguing with someone who produces no actual non-anecdotal data and who rejects all of your data because they don't like the conclusion.

Lol. I’m actually a parent, anti-unions in general, have been appalled at teachers this whole time. The problem is low teacher pay around here. It doesn’t attract good, smart people to the field. Look at how they type. There’s some teacher on the VA schools board who can’t understand apostrophe usage. They’re a bunch of career changers and people getting their MRS degrees. You can’t attract better people to field without better pay. Yes I get that the contracts are for 10 months but at some point, the pay is the pay, and any summer job they’d get would likely be in the $10-$15/hr range so doesn’t make up for the 2 months in the summer.

Better pay and then align benefits to be more like the private sector. People need money now to pay those student loans, not the promise of a pension in the future ... maybe. We treat teaching as a “calling,” some noble thing like being a nun or something, that we then justify paying teachers less. It needs to be professionalized just like any other occupation.

The pay IS aligned with the private sector. Read the above cited stats. Teachers make comparable or more than others with similar backgrounds. And that's not even including what they could make in the summer. I would also imagine that teachers receive better benefits, on average, and get more holidays, etc. I agree that there are shit aspects of teaching, but there are also nice aspects. It seems at least in unionized areas it is very difficult to get fired for doing a crappy job, so that's a plus (on par with government employees).

I also agree that there are some real duds in the teaching profession, but there are duds in any job. Are they on average duds? Are the majority duds? I don't think so.

I'm also sort of at a crossroads as to whether teaching is some put-upon profession or whether it is an average-to-slightly-better-than-average job. I used to really agree that teachers got the shit-end of the stick, but looking at data and thinking about it, it's really not that bad.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

^^no matter what data you give to these people, they will always claim that something ELSE is the problem. Like I could go out of my way to point out that teachers also get increases every year, and that they can also train for higher positions, but it wouldn't matter. Next she'd say that the problem is at the high end. Or in general prestige or comparing master's degrees or something. There's no point in arguing with someone who produces no actual non-anecdotal data and who rejects all of your data because they don't like the conclusion.

Lol. I’m actually a parent, anti-unions in general, have been appalled at teachers this whole time. The problem is low teacher pay around here. It doesn’t attract good, smart people to the field. Look at how they type. There’s some teacher on the VA schools board who can’t understand apostrophe usage. They’re a bunch of career changers and people getting their MRS degrees. You can’t attract better people to field without better pay. Yes I get that the contracts are for 10 months but at some point, the pay is the pay, and any summer job they’d get would likely be in the $10-$15/hr range so doesn’t make up for the 2 months in the summer.

Better pay and then align benefits to be more like the private sector. People need money now to pay those student loans, not the promise of a pension in the future ... maybe. We treat teaching as a “calling,” some noble thing like being a nun or something, that we then justify paying teachers less. It needs to be professionalized just like any other occupation.

How do you propose to pay private wages for a public job? Also, how much do you think teachers should be making? $150,000 for 10 months? 200,000?

Teachers in many European countries are fairly compensated. We could do it here in the US too. I don’t know specifics but good grief. Who can live as a single adult in the DC area making, like, $60k? Which is what teachers make after 8ish years. It’s just a really, really unappealing amount of money in a more expensive area. The 8 year fed, nurse, computer programmer .... all doing much better with similar levels of education.

You aren't even trying to understand. They need to get master's degrees and their earnings go up. These salaries are in line with other government employees, if not more general. They also have shorter contracted work days.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

^^no matter what data you give to these people, they will always claim that something ELSE is the problem. Like I could go out of my way to point out that teachers also get increases every year, and that they can also train for higher positions, but it wouldn't matter. Next she'd say that the problem is at the high end. Or in general prestige or comparing master's degrees or something. There's no point in arguing with someone who produces no actual non-anecdotal data and who rejects all of your data because they don't like the conclusion.

Lol. I’m actually a parent, anti-unions in general, have been appalled at teachers this whole time. The problem is low teacher pay around here. It doesn’t attract good, smart people to the field. Look at how they type. There’s some teacher on the VA schools board who can’t understand apostrophe usage. They’re a bunch of career changers and people getting their MRS degrees. You can’t attract better people to field without better pay. Yes I get that the contracts are for 10 months but at some point, the pay is the pay, and any summer job they’d get would likely be in the $10-$15/hr range so doesn’t make up for the 2 months in the summer.

Better pay and then align benefits to be more like the private sector. People need money now to pay those student loans, not the promise of a pension in the future ... maybe. We treat teaching as a “calling,” some noble thing like being a nun or something, that we then justify paying teachers less. It needs to be professionalized just like any other occupation.

How do you propose to pay private wages for a public job? Also, how much do you think teachers should be making? $150,000 for 10 months? 200,000?

Teachers in many European countries are fairly compensated. We could do it here in the US too. I don’t know specifics but good grief. Who can live as a single adult in the DC area making, like, $60k? Which is what teachers make after 8ish years. It’s just a really, really unappealing amount of money in a more expensive area. The 8 year fed, nurse, computer programmer .... all doing much better with similar levels of education.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

^^no matter what data you give to these people, they will always claim that something ELSE is the problem. Like I could go out of my way to point out that teachers also get increases every year, and that they can also train for higher positions, but it wouldn't matter. Next she'd say that the problem is at the high end. Or in general prestige or comparing master's degrees or something. There's no point in arguing with someone who produces no actual non-anecdotal data and who rejects all of your data because they don't like the conclusion.

Lol. I’m actually a parent, anti-unions in general, have been appalled at teachers this whole time. The problem is low teacher pay around here. It doesn’t attract good, smart people to the field. Look at how they type. There’s some teacher on the VA schools board who can’t understand apostrophe usage. They’re a bunch of career changers and people getting their MRS degrees. You can’t attract better people to field without better pay. Yes I get that the contracts are for 10 months but at some point, the pay is the pay, and any summer job they’d get would likely be in the $10-$15/hr range so doesn’t make up for the 2 months in the summer.

Better pay and then align benefits to be more like the private sector. People need money now to pay those student loans, not the promise of a pension in the future ... maybe. We treat teaching as a “calling,” some noble thing like being a nun or something, that we then justify paying teachers less. It needs to be professionalized just like any other occupation.

How do you propose to pay private wages for a public job? Also, how much do you think teachers should be making? $150,000 for 10 months? 200,000?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

^^no matter what data you give to these people, they will always claim that something ELSE is the problem. Like I could go out of my way to point out that teachers also get increases every year, and that they can also train for higher positions, but it wouldn't matter. Next she'd say that the problem is at the high end. Or in general prestige or comparing master's degrees or something. There's no point in arguing with someone who produces no actual non-anecdotal data and who rejects all of your data because they don't like the conclusion.

Lol. I’m actually a parent, anti-unions in general, have been appalled at teachers this whole time. The problem is low teacher pay around here. It doesn’t attract good, smart people to the field. Look at how they type. There’s some teacher on the VA schools board who can’t understand apostrophe usage. They’re a bunch of career changers and people getting their MRS degrees. You can’t attract better people to field without better pay. Yes I get that the contracts are for 10 months but at some point, the pay is the pay, and any summer job they’d get would likely be in the $10-$15/hr range so doesn’t make up for the 2 months in the summer.

Better pay and then align benefits to be more like the private sector. People need money now to pay those student loans, not the promise of a pension in the future ... maybe. We treat teaching as a “calling,” some noble thing like being a nun or something, that we then justify paying teachers less. It needs to be professionalized just like any other occupation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am pro union and I don’t see it as the unions’ job to advocate for educational quality- their job is to advocate for the teachers’ interests.

It’s like expecting a union of Amazon workers to advocate for the customers- sorry that’s not their interest. It is a worker organization.

If you want higher quality teachers then teaching should be a higher paid and more respected profession like it is in other advanced countries. If it were a more competitive field you would see higher quality candidates.

So, it sounds like indeed, that unions confer no direct benefit to educational outcomes. So far, the only argument that I have seen is that blue areas have both unions and better educational outcomes. But it's not clear why that would be the causal connection and not other policies related to local politics. Or simple wealth.

The argument for a union is not for better products, it’s for better quality of life for the workers. Better products are often a byproduct. If unions do confer benefits to education it is an indirect result. I have no issues with this. It is just the definition of a union. I’m a little surprised at the naïveté of people who think the union is operating for the benefits of students or their parents. That’s just not their function.

The union is literally making claims about how they're speaking for the benefit of students or their parents. And this is why I am shocked at seeing any parent take union claims at their word. They're not trying to help us. As you said, they don't care.

It’s not that they don’t care, their ultimate priority is protecting their workers, same as your ultimate priority is securing the best education for your child.

Sometimes I feel like as Americans we get so lost in bullshitting and saying the right thing. Of course the union is going to claim that what they want is best for students because their position is that what’s best for teachers is also what’s best for students. You have to recognize that someone who is negotiating on their own behalf is ultimately in favor of their own interests first without being your enemy. The vitriol against teachers on this board is moronic.