Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 20:14     Subject: Re:cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
I'd love to see a study of how well kids perform over the medium/long-term when they are pushed into GT compared to those that earned spots.


Please define "earned spots" v. "pushed into GT."

Anyway, I think kids rise to the occasion, often in surprising ways, when they are challenged. Your proposed study might not prove your point!
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 20:11     Subject: Re:cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
It will make it that much easier for him when he competes against these children!


This attitude, which has now started to pervade this previously useful thread, is so disheartening. Why does it have to be a competition in SECOND GRADE? I'm not naive; I realize competition is a part of life and unfortunately it starts early. But I really do believe that one of the things that makes our schools (or at least my children's school) so wonderful is the cooperative learning environment and the way that parents (again, maybe just at my school) try to support the school and every child in it. I hate to read these posts because I fear some of you are passing these attitudes on to your children, teaching them that they are superior to others simply because of a test score.
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 20:05     Subject: Re:cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
Interesting dialogue. BUT . . . you state your child tested the same on WISC as COGaT and NNAT2, AND you say she was in the screening pool BUT you're referring her. Why would you refer a child already in the pool?


Sorry, but you haven't "busted" me. Reread my post.

I was discussing my testing experience with my DD; as I noted toward the end, she is IN the Center now.

The next paragraph was about my DS, whom I am referring this year based on recommendations from his school that I do so.
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 19:49     Subject: cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
Anonymous wrote:I'd love to see a study of how well kids perform over the medium/long-term when they are pushed into GT compared to those that earned spots.


When you mean earned spots you mean everyone that got in with standardized tests, GBRS, other tests and referrals? Beacause all of those are subjectively assessed by the selection committee. We should exclude 33% of the automatic pool that makes the cutoffs but is yet denied by the commiittee thereby not "earning their spot".
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 19:44     Subject: cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
I'd love to see a study of how well kids perform over the medium/long-term when they are pushed into GT compared to those that earned spots.
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 19:38     Subject: Re:cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
The CGAT and NNAT are fair and accurate tests? I really don’t think so.

At my DD’s school, about 30 students made it into the initial screening pool (1 out of every 3). Using the CGAT and NNAT as metrics, my DD as well as 33% of his classmates did better than 97% of the rest of the country. My guess is that if they had all took the WISC instead (even with all those corrupt psychologists out there) that a lot less than 30 students would have made into the initial pool.

At one of the GT meetings just before the tests were administered last October, our school principal made a few vague comments about the unusually high test scores at my DD’s school. The principal also mumbled something about CGAT and NNAT web sites with test samples on them. Note, that is meeting was held before the tests were administered.

If you are looking for accuracy and fairness for placing students in the program, extending the deadline for parents to submit their applications (including supplimental materials with outside if testing if desired) to the first day that school is open after the worst snow storm in 25 years is a good thing and should be allowed. FCPS made the correct decision in extending the deadline.


If this is true, (which I'm sure is), you're right.

This school should be investigated the County and re-tested (something else besides COGaT/NNAT) given these "unusual" results.
BTW --which school was this?
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 19:35     Subject: Re:cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
Anonymous wrote:15:50, I REALLY like you!

Also, to chime in on the private psychologist testing, I have a different perspective to offer. My DD attended private school in 1st grade. For various reasons, we decided to move her either to FCPS or to another private school for 2nd grade. We had a private psych. administer the WISC-IV to her in the winter during 1st grade b/c it was needed for the private school application. In the end, we sent her to FCPS for 2nd grade, where she took the NNAT and CogAT like all 2nd graders. Her scores/percentiles were almost exactly the same as on the WISC. There was no inflation on her WISC scores. And she was in the screening pool based on her NNAT and CogAT scores & is now in the Center.

I have to say that the attitude of some parents (or maybe just one who keeps posting?) that any parent who refers their child is just pushing for something the child isn't qualified for is really obnoxious. Everything is not as black and white as a couple of test scores. I'm referring my child because the AAP specialist AND the classroom teacher both called me and told me to. He missed the pool by only a few points and they wanted to make sure we were submitting a referral because they feel strongly that he should be in the Center. I specifically told them I didn't want to push him into something if it would not be a good fit, and they both said he should definitely be referred. There is a reason the referral process exists.


Interesting dialogue. BUT . . . you state your child tested the same on WISC as COGaT and NNAT2, AND you say she was in the screening pool BUT you're referring her. Why would you refer a child already in the pool?

this person is talking about two of her/his children. Do not you see? Girl (first paragraph) and boy (second)
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 19:32     Subject: Re:cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
The CGAT and NNAT are fair and accurate tests? I really don’t think so.

At my DD’s school, about 30 students made it into the initial screening pool (1 out of every 3). Using the CGAT and NNAT as metrics, my DD as well as 33% of his classmates did better than 97% of the rest of the country. My guess is that if they had all took the WISC instead (even with all those corrupt psychologists out there) that a lot less than 30 students would have made into the initial pool.

At one of the GT meetings just before the tests were administered last October, our school principal made a few vague comments about the unusually high test scores at my DD’s school. The principal also mumbled something about CGAT and NNAT web sites with test samples on them. Note, that is meeting was held before the tests were administered.

If you are looking for accuracy and fairness for placing students in the program, extending the deadline for parents to submit their applications (including supplimental materials with outside if testing if desired) to the first day that school is open after the worst snow storm in 25 years is a good thing and should be allowed. FCPS made the correct decision in extending the deadline.



Thank you for this perspective. All goes to my point that some parents will do anything. My child took the test without any prep or copies of the test and still made it. It will make it that much easier for him when he competes against these children! Prediction: I'm sure the GBRS will wash this out.
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 19:28     Subject: Re:cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
Anonymous wrote:
I'd bet this is because they're tired of being bombarded by pushy parents who will stop at nothing to get their child into this program. Do you really think we now have double the number of gifted children over the past 10-15 years? Maybe so, but I doubt it.


It used to be more of a program for highly gifted (like in MoCo). FCPS has chosen to expand the program to moderately gifted cutoff numbers. So they made a conscious choice to expand the program. No matter what they do, there will be pushy parents here, it's a function of this area. I don't know why they chose to change the nature of the program.

They also made a point to seek out students from more diverse backgrounds. They added the NNAT to help with that, since it is language neutral, unlike the CoGAT.


Excellent point. Our coordinator told us that the Naglerie is to compensate ESL students and make a more diverse pool since its read to them a teacher (each question several times) because they have trouble reading and understanding English.
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 19:25     Subject: Re:cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
15:50, I REALLY like you!

Also, to chime in on the private psychologist testing, I have a different perspective to offer. My DD attended private school in 1st grade. For various reasons, we decided to move her either to FCPS or to another private school for 2nd grade. We had a private psych. administer the WISC-IV to her in the winter during 1st grade b/c it was needed for the private school application. In the end, we sent her to FCPS for 2nd grade, where she took the NNAT and CogAT like all 2nd graders. Her scores/percentiles were almost exactly the same as on the WISC. There was no inflation on her WISC scores. And she was in the screening pool based on her NNAT and CogAT scores & is now in the Center.

I have to say that the attitude of some parents (or maybe just one who keeps posting?) that any parent who refers their child is just pushing for something the child isn't qualified for is really obnoxious. Everything is not as black and white as a couple of test scores. I'm referring my child because the AAP specialist AND the classroom teacher both called me and told me to. He missed the pool by only a few points and they wanted to make sure we were submitting a referral because they feel strongly that he should be in the Center. I specifically told them I didn't want to push him into something if it would not be a good fit, and they both said he should definitely be referred. There is a reason the referral process exists.


Interesting dialogue. BUT . . . you state your child tested the same on WISC as COGaT and NNAT2, AND you say she was in the screening pool BUT you're referring her. Why would you refer a child already in the pool?

Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 18:39     Subject: Re:cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
We waited beacuse we wanted to get DC evaluated for a WISC to see if we should put in the referral. We had no pre-conceived notion that DC should be referred because he was brilliant. The Cogat scores (he missed 2 of 3 by 2 points and one by 4) pointed us to evaluate our own assessment of DC (maybe he does not need to go to GT?). Unfortunately the WISC was scheduled in early Feb (separately documented here that appointments are hard to come by). Only once the DC did well in the WISC did we choose to refer. The WISC is not just evidence for the FCPS - it told us whether we should apply for DC as well. Agreed that "late applications" should not be accepted. But it is FCPS that determines what is late not other parents who are better off by having a smaller pool. Also documented here - approximately 66% of the automatic pool gets selected for GT eventually and about 50% of the parent referred pool gets selected eventually. Cannot comprehend the self-righteous anger of the posters here - tell me it is not anything but selfish! Your kids are in grade 2 - if you belive that the only way to go up is by denying fair opportunity to others than you have greater parenting challenges ahead. All the best!


15:50, I REALLY like you!

Also, to chime in on the private psychologist testing, I have a different perspective to offer. My DD attended private school in 1st grade. For various reasons, we decided to move her either to FCPS or to another private school for 2nd grade. We had a private psych. administer the WISC-IV to her in the winter during 1st grade b/c it was needed for the private school application. In the end, we sent her to FCPS for 2nd grade, where she took the NNAT and CogAT like all 2nd graders. Her scores/percentiles were almost exactly the same as on the WISC. There was no inflation on her WISC scores. And she was in the screening pool based on her NNAT and CogAT scores & is now in the Center.

I have to say that the attitude of some parents (or maybe just one who keeps posting?) that any parent who refers their child is just pushing for something the child isn't qualified for is really obnoxious. Everything is not as black and white as a couple of test scores. I'm referring my child because the AAP specialist AND the classroom teacher both called me and told me to. He missed the pool by only a few points and they wanted to make sure we were submitting a referral because they feel strongly that he should be in the Center. I specifically told them I didn't want to push him into something if it would not be a good fit, and they both said he should definitely be referred. There is a reason the referral process exists.
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 18:39     Subject: cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
I'm so naive. I had no idea people prepared for these tests. In fact, we moved to the US one month before school started this year, so my DC had never taken a standardized test before and had no idea what they wanted. DC still tested into the pool, although the scores are uneven so who knows what the final outcome will be.
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 18:38     Subject: Re:cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
I'd bet this is because they're tired of being bombarded by pushy parents who will stop at nothing to get their child into this program. Do you really think we now have double the number of gifted children over the past 10-15 years? Maybe so, but I doubt it.


It used to be more of a program for highly gifted (like in MoCo). FCPS has chosen to expand the program to moderately gifted cutoff numbers. So they made a conscious choice to expand the program. No matter what they do, there will be pushy parents here, it's a function of this area. I don't know why they chose to change the nature of the program.

They also made a point to seek out students from more diverse backgrounds. They added the NNAT to help with that, since it is language neutral, unlike the CoGAT.
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 18:36     Subject: Re:cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?

As one of the posters who disagrees with the many excuses advanced, I don't think FCPS should allow a parent to hire a private psychologist to generate a report that supports a child's application. I'd love to know the stats on the range of scores for these "experts." My hunch is their scores are significantly higher than what would be expected from a pool of children who performed "below expectations" where the test conditions were fair and equal for everybody.


The CGAT and NNAT are fair and accurate tests? I really don’t think so.

At my DD’s school, about 30 students made it into the initial screening pool (1 out of every 3). Using the CGAT and NNAT as metrics, my DD as well as 33% of his classmates did better than 97% of the rest of the country. My guess is that if they had all took the WISC instead (even with all those corrupt psychologists out there) that a lot less than 30 students would have made into the initial pool.

At one of the GT meetings just before the tests were administered last October, our school principal made a few vague comments about the unusually high test scores at my DD’s school. The principal also mumbled something about CGAT and NNAT web sites with test samples on them. Note, that is meeting was held before the tests were administered.

If you are looking for accuracy and fairness for placing students in the program, extending the deadline for parents to submit their applications (including supplimental materials with outside if testing if desired) to the first day that school is open after the worst snow storm in 25 years is a good thing and should be allowed. FCPS made the correct decision in extending the deadline.
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2010 17:22     Subject: cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?
17:04 here - we did not cherry pick a psychologist and have no idea whether its true or not that private psychologists inflate assesments. They probably do but the County gives us an option to test the child privately and we exercised it. This is for our first child so we were new at this. We were told later that that people preare there kids over summer with a bunch of test preps available over the web. The standard test are not to be prepared for and in fact it is considered cheating if you do. So if every private psychologist is to be doubted we should doubt all scores assuming everyone that scored "high" cheated by prepping. This sounds ridiculous but no less so than saying all private psychologits are dubious. There are people who play fair and there are others that game the system. Profiling generically is just not a good idea. Not here and not anywhere.