Anonymous wrote:Your family sounds nuts; I don't blame your kid for wanting to go elsewhere.

+1.

Smart kiddo.

When I was there, one selective club had the same number of students bickering as it did open slots. However, it cut one of the students who bickered just to maintain its selective reputation. Ugh.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:54's post is accurate. What's left unsaid is that reason no one is "left out" is because there is space at the sign-in/lottery clubs for any students who don't get a bid from one of the selective clubs that require you to go through "Bicker," where the club members assess whether you meet their social criteria.

That has elements in common with fraternities and sororities at some schools, but it has a disproportionately negative effect on Princeton's reputation because many of the selective clubs are very snooty, and students who are smart enough to get into Princeton may not want to attend a school where Biff and Muffy from St.Paul's and Andover can hose them in a very public way. The "Bicker" process has a sordid history, which includes a "Dirty Bicker" episode years ago where every student who was denied a bid was Jewish. And yet, because many alumni are devoted to their old clubs, the otherwise liberal administration at Princeton leaves this hoary system intact, even though they know it discourages many bright kids from applying to or attending the school.

I agree bicker has a sorted history, but I don't think that is terribly relevant today when things are wildly different. (I wouldn't have gotten in to Princeton during that era, and if I had a would have been rejected during the Dirty Bicker you mentioned.). Lots of people, myself included, didn't want to hang out with Muffy or Buffy, but that means I simply didn't go to or try to join the couple of clubs that had that reputation. Even most of the bicker clubs aren't really like that, never mind the sign-in clubs.

Lastly, I think you are too dismissive about how the sign in clubs effect the overall eating club experience. Your post could be read to imply that most people at sign in clubs are refugees who were rejected by bicker clubs. That isn't true. A very large number of people choose to join the sign in clubs in the first instance, because they liked those clubs best and/or didn't want to do bicker. I would bet more people choose to sign in than bicker, but I can't quote you numbers.

I believe the fact that huge numbers of people can and do join eating clubs without ever having to rush should be enough so that the fact that there are some rush clubs - just like there are selective clubs at virtually every institution- should not be a reason to avoid Princeton.

I agree that most who pick sign-in clubs prefer them to the Bicker clubs. My point is that they will accommodate kids who get turned down by the selective clubs. If all the clubs on the Street acted like Cottage or Ivy, I'm not sure that would be the case.

Not am I personally advocating that prospective students avoid Princeton because of its selective clubs. I'm simply acknowledging that their continued existence clearly is a negative factor for some high school students considering their options.

Anonymous wrote:9:54's post is accurate. What's left unsaid is that reason no one is "left out" is because there is space at the sign-in/lottery clubs for any students who don't get a bid from one of the selective clubs that require you to go through "Bicker," where the club members assess whether you meet their social criteria.

That has elements in common with fraternities and sororities at some schools, but it has a disproportionately negative effect on Princeton's reputation because many of the selective clubs are very snooty, and students who are smart enough to get into Princeton may not want to attend a school where Biff and Muffy from St.Paul's and Andover can hose them in a very public way. The "Bicker" process has a sordid history, which includes a "Dirty Bicker" episode years ago where every student who was denied a bid was Jewish. And yet, because many alumni are devoted to their old clubs, the otherwise liberal administration at Princeton leaves this hoary system intact, even though they know it discourages many bright kids from applying to or attending the school.

I agree bicker has a sorted history, but I don't think that is terribly relevant today when things are wildly different. (I wouldn't have gotten in to Princeton during that era, and if I had a would have been rejected during the Dirty Bicker you mentioned.). Lots of people, myself included, didn't want to hang out with Muffy or Buffy, but that means I simply didn't go to or try to join the couple of clubs that had that reputation. Even most of the bicker clubs aren't really like that, never mind the sign-in clubs.

Lastly, I think you are too dismissive about how the sign in clubs effect the overall eating club experience. Your post could be read to imply that most people at sign in clubs are refugees who were rejected by bicker clubs. That isn't true. A very large number of people choose to join the sign in clubs in the first instance, because they liked those clubs best and/or didn't want to do bicker. I would bet more people choose to sign in than bicker, but I can't quote you numbers.

I believe the fact that huge numbers of people can and do join eating clubs without ever having to rush should be enough so that the fact that there are some rush clubs - just like there are selective clubs at virtually every institution- should not be a reason to avoid Princeton.

9:54's post is accurate. What's left unsaid is that reason no one is "left out" is because there is space at the sign-in/lottery clubs for any students who don't get a bid from one of the selective clubs that require you to go through "Bicker," where the club members assess whether you meet their social criteria.

That has elements in common with fraternities and sororities at some schools, but it has a disproportionately negative effect on Princeton's reputation because many of the selective clubs are very snooty, and students who are smart enough to get into Princeton may not want to attend a school where Biff and Muffy from St.Paul's and Andover can hose them in a very public way. The "Bicker" process has a sordid history, which includes a "Dirty Bicker" episode years ago where every student who was denied a bid was Jewish. And yet, because many alumni are devoted to their old clubs, the otherwise liberal administration at Princeton leaves this hoary system intact, even though they know it discourages many bright kids from applying to or attending the school.

Anonymous wrote:^ I'm convinced that was written by Princeton's NoVa-DC admissions officer.

What part of this do you think is inaccurate?

And I am an alum, but have no affiliation with admissions.

^ I'm convinced that was written by Princeton's NoVa-DC admissions officer.

Anonymous wrote:

some bright students don't apply [to Princeton] because of its reputation for social exclusivity, as most obviously perpetuated by the "bicker" tradition at a half-dozen selective eating clubs (if all the clubs operated on a sign-in or lottery system, this would be a non-issue). Students who apply to Ivies obviously aren't put off by their academic selectivity or exclusivity; in fact they covet it. But the selective eating clubs send a message that, no matter how smart you are, you can be excluded based on a comparative lack of social connections or skills, and that's not the message some high-achieving kids want to hear. Even if the short-term impact of doing away with the selective clubs would only be to increase the number of applications every year by a few thousand, and drop the admissions rate to below 6%, it's not something the administration should ignore.

Can someone explain what exactly an eating club is? What % of the class ends up getting a bid to an eating club? Is the process super humiliating or something? Thanks.

Eating clubs are basically coed fraternities/sororities, although most people don't live in the building. You join midway through your sophomore year. More than half of the clubs there is no "rush", you simply sign up. The only reason you wouldn't get in is if there isn't enough space and you get a bad lottery number. You will get into one of the sign in clubs if you want to do 100% of people who want to join a club can.

The other group of clubs requires a rush process called "bicker." The process varies by club. Some the process is quite tame and in no way humiliating. In others there is a bit more of hijinks associated with frats, but still nothing like the hazing you see at some places.

All the clubs, including the sign in clubs to a lesser degree, tend to have a slightly different feel and membership base. One club has a lot of the artsy/theater folks, a couple others tend to have athletes, etc. but none of the clubs are monolithic.

I believe around 85% of people join a club and, again, no one who wants to join will get shut out completely. Some people use their club mostly just for meals, for other people, it is the center of their social life. Even people not in clubs (either underclassmen or folks who choose not to join) can go to most parties held at the clubs and can eat there with a friend in the club through a meal exchange program.

To the extent people choose not to apply to Princeton because of an antiquated view of the eating clubs (and I question how prevelant this is), they are missing out.