I think we are all probably in violent agreement that the FCPS implementation of IB has significant problems. More broadly, I see that the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation is giving millions to put IB programs in low-performing schools. I think this is misguided and have not seen any research to suggest it is a good idea. The romantic idea is that the IB program will provide a supportive and stimulating educational environments to those highly motivated learners who come from a lower SES environment and would otherwise struggle to find the right challenge at those schools. However, one of the things IB students always highlight to me is the importance of a strong cohort. When you have 2-3 diploma candidates per grade, there is no strong cohort to exchange ideas across and learn with. A magnet implementation, with transportation, would serve those learners better, in my opinion.

From that same NYT series, with contributions from multiple authors, including Patrick Welsh (a retired English teacher and well-known contributor to both the Washington Post and The New York Times):

"Our son, who is a strong writer, graduated from an I.B. program and our family was very satisfied with the program and his experience. But we chose not to enroll his siblings in an I.B. program because it simply wasn't right for their learning styles, which are more mathematical and science-focused. Saying the I.B. is beneficial for some students in some situations is one thing. Saying, however, it should become the standard, or even the only option for all U.S. schools, is another."

"American schools’ and students’ experience with. I.B. is a mixed bag...Several programs have low completion rates, 39 percent in some cases. Students beginning but not completing I.B. can find themselves in academic limbo, worse off than if they had never started one."

"In the more affluent, homogeneous sections of Fairfax, high schools such as Langley, where about 2 percent of students are on free or reduced lunch, have rejected I.B. and stuck with the College Board’s Advanced Placement program. And with good reason."

"And for all puffery about the prestige of an I.B. diploma, in many schools the majority of I.B. students end up with only meaningless I.B. certificates awarded to anyone who pays for and takes an I.B. exam regardless of whether he or she passes."

"The International Baccalaureate is also more prescriptive than Advance Placement, boxing in teachers and forcing them to teach courses such as epistemology, the last thing most high school students need."

"The I.B.s breadth poses problems. State schools found that ordinarily intelligent students quite often could not pass all the elements necessary to receive the award. Instead they were given certificates for the bits they had passed. These partial awards proved much less useful in gaining entry to university or employment than the national awards. Schools also found that the I.B. placed heavy demands on scarce resources, including the most important of all, the teachers, since all students had to do all parts, rather than specializing in a few subjects. "

"[F]or those with particular abilities, interests and aspirations single-subject qualifications are often more appropriate. The International Baccalaureate occupies an important niche in England’s education, but adoption of the program has not grown in the way that might have been hoped."

"For school officials and parents to think that getting an I.B. Diploma will turn the next generation into better educated, more productive citizens is, as many of the promises coming from self-appointed education gurus, delusional."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:New York Times: "In the more affluent, homogeneous sections of Fairfax, high schools such as Langley, where about 2 percent of students are on free or reduced lunch, have rejected I.B. and stuck with the College Board’s Advanced Placement program. And with good reason."

That's NOT the NY Times opinion, that is "Patrick Welsh, a retired teacher, taught English at T.C. Williams High School in Alexandria, Va.", well known for his rabid opposition to IB (probably posts on this board too).

Here is from the NYT Education front page article "International Program Catches On in U.S. Schools" by Tamar Lewin, who frequently writes on education for the NYT:
“No question, the people who founded the I.B. were sitting in Geneva, post-World War II, thinking about how to ensure world peace, so the clear philosophical bent is that by integrating learning and understanding issues from multiple perspectives, we can promote global thinking,” he said. “But what sold me on the program was that it’s good pedagogy, that it really shows kids how things go together.”

Still, Mr. Mosca has no plans to eliminate the school’s Advanced Placement offerings.

“A.P. is great for content-based traditional learning,” he said. “It’s great for kids who like to memorize. But for more creative kids, who want to make those connections, there’s nothing like the I.B.”

We can do battle of the quotes all day long - it doesn't prove anything. We can't do a randomized experiment. To answer OP's question on why people in FFX CTY prefer AP to IB: many reasons. It's harder, has many requirements, it is (mostly) in the lower SES/lower performing schools and parents choose the best-performing school they can (and some conflate the IB and AP with that correlation). Parents interested in rigorous education for their kids should research both options in more substantive ways than reading anonymous forums.

Excellent - thanks for providing the context. It's interesting how an anonymous forum can generate such extremes of good and terrible information/opinion... I really wonder if Langley would reject IB if they were sure it would not open the gates to pupil placement. As it is Langley and McLean students pupil place to Marshall to take IB - so there is some demand. Of course, any single program is not for everyone and anyone considering these decisions must do some real work to understand the pros & cons.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:New York Times: "In the more affluent, homogeneous sections of Fairfax, high schools such as Langley, where about 2 percent of students are on free or reduced lunch, have rejected I.B. and stuck with the College Board’s Advanced Placement program. And with good reason."

That's NOT the NY Times opinion, that is "Patrick Welsh, a retired teacher, taught English at T.C. Williams High School in Alexandria, Va.", well known for his rabid opposition to IB (probably posts on this board too).

Here is from the NYT Education front page article "International Program Catches On in U.S. Schools" by Tamar Lewin, who frequently writes on education for the NYT:
“No question, the people who founded the I.B. were sitting in Geneva, post-World War II, thinking about how to ensure world peace, so the clear philosophical bent is that by integrating learning and understanding issues from multiple perspectives, we can promote global thinking,” he said. “But what sold me on the program was that it’s good pedagogy, that it really shows kids how things go together.”

Still, Mr. Mosca has no plans to eliminate the school’s Advanced Placement offerings.

“A.P. is great for content-based traditional learning,” he said. “It’s great for kids who like to memorize. But for more creative kids, who want to make those connections, there’s nothing like the I.B.”

We can do battle of the quotes all day long - it doesn't prove anything. We can't do a randomized experiment. To answer OP's question on why people in FFX CTY prefer AP to IB: many reasons. It's harder, has many requirements, it is (mostly) in the lower SES/lower performing schools and parents choose the best-performing school they can (and some conflate the IB and AP with that correlation). Parents interested in rigorous education for their kids should research both options in more substantive ways than reading anonymous forums.

Yes, parents pick the best-performing schools they can. In the absence of causation, and despite the presence of anecdotes (puffery from paid IB shills), they go with correlation, and see that most of the top schools in FCPS are AP; most of the worst schools are IB; and 15-20 years of spending extra on IB has not stopped the further decline of the schools saddled with IB programs.

And it's entirely fair to question the juxtaposition of IB's supposedly being "harder" with its placement in lower SES/lower performing schools. Either it's not actually harder, FCPS made a major blunder in placing it where it did or, most likely, both. All reasons, again, to gravitate towards the AP schools with great track records and plenty of (gasp) "traditional learning" taking place.

It's really very simple:

IB costs significantly more to the school system.
AP is more flexible.
Most residents prefer AP.

Put IB in two schools for the IB faithful and put AP everywhere else.

Saves money.
Less PP.
Happier students and families.
Levels the playing field.

Anonymous wrote:New York Times: "In the more affluent, homogeneous sections of Fairfax, high schools such as Langley, where about 2 percent of students are on free or reduced lunch, have rejected I.B. and stuck with the College Board’s Advanced Placement program. And with good reason."

That's NOT the NY Times opinion, that is "Patrick Welsh, a retired teacher, taught English at T.C. Williams High School in Alexandria, Va.", well known for his rabid opposition to IB (probably posts on this board too).

Here is from the NYT Education front page article "International Program Catches On in U.S. Schools" by Tamar Lewin, who frequently writes on education for the NYT:
“No question, the people who founded the I.B. were sitting in Geneva, post-World War II, thinking about how to ensure world peace, so the clear philosophical bent is that by integrating learning and understanding issues from multiple perspectives, we can promote global thinking,” he said. “But what sold me on the program was that it’s good pedagogy, that it really shows kids how things go together.”

Still, Mr. Mosca has no plans to eliminate the school’s Advanced Placement offerings.

“A.P. is great for content-based traditional learning,” he said. “It’s great for kids who like to memorize. But for more creative kids, who want to make those connections, there’s nothing like the I.B.”

We can do battle of the quotes all day long - it doesn't prove anything. We can't do a randomized experiment. To answer OP's question on why people in FFX CTY prefer AP to IB: many reasons. It's harder, has many requirements, it is (mostly) in the lower SES/lower performing schools and parents choose the best-performing school they can (and some conflate the IB and AP with that correlation). Parents interested in rigorous education for their kids should research both options in more substantive ways than reading anonymous forums.

Anonymous wrote:New York Times: "In the more affluent, homogeneous sections of Fairfax, high schools such as Langley, where about 2 percent of students are on free or reduced lunch, have rejected I.B. and stuck with the College Board’s Advanced Placement program. And with good reason."

You're quoting the NYT on FCPS!?! lol

New York Times: "In the more affluent, homogeneous sections of Fairfax, high schools such as Langley, where about 2 percent of students are on free or reduced lunch, have rejected I.B. and stuck with the College Board’s Advanced Placement program. And with good reason."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

West Springfield 2
Fairfax 1
Herndon 1
Stuart 1
Annandale 0
Falls Church 0
South County 0
West Potomac 0

These schools are the peers of most of the IB schools. Should we remove AP from these schools?

Not sure I understand the purpose of this post. I really don't think the National Merit list is a valid test for IB/AP. These are a handful of students in even the top schools. And, the deciding test, I think, is taken in the Junior year. So, I really don't see the point of using this stat.

The National Merit thing was brought up in a post by the troll claiming AP superiority based on NM semifinalists. True, several IB schools have many, but the purpose of the post was to show that many AP schools don't either...I agree it is not a good measure of the quality of a school.

The stats don't lie. High SES schools (which happen to be AP) attract more bright kids and have more NMSFs. Why pay more for IB when it attracts so few of the county's strongest students?

FIFY.

Not a coincidence. Those schools were already successful and make clear they don't want IB.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

West Springfield 2
Fairfax 1
Herndon 1
Stuart 1
Annandale 0
Falls Church 0
South County 0
West Potomac 0

These schools are the peers of most of the IB schools. Should we remove AP from these schools?

Not sure I understand the purpose of this post. I really don't think the National Merit list is a valid test for IB/AP. These are a handful of students in even the top schools. And, the deciding test, I think, is taken in the Junior year. So, I really don't see the point of using this stat.

The National Merit thing was brought up in a post by the troll claiming AP superiority based on NM semifinalists. True, several IB schools have many, but the purpose of the post was to show that many AP schools don't either...I agree it is not a good measure of the quality of a school.

The stats don't lie. High SES schools (which happen to be AP) attract more bright kids and have more NMSFs. Why pay more for IB when it attracts so few of the county's strongest students?

FIFY.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

West Springfield 2
Fairfax 1
Herndon 1
Stuart 1
Annandale 0
Falls Church 0
South County 0
West Potomac 0

These schools are the peers of most of the IB schools. Should we remove AP from these schools?

Not sure I understand the purpose of this post. I really don't think the National Merit list is a valid test for IB/AP. These are a handful of students in even the top schools. And, the deciding test, I think, is taken in the Junior year. So, I really don't see the point of using this stat.

The National Merit thing was brought up in a post by the troll claiming AP superiority based on NM semifinalists. True, several IB schools have many, but the purpose of the post was to show that many AP schools don't either...I agree it is not a good measure of the quality of a school.

The stats don't lie. AP schools attract more bright kids and have more NMSFs. Why pay more for IB when it attracts so few of the county's strongest students?

Anonymous wrote:

West Springfield 2
Fairfax 1
Herndon 1
Stuart 1
Annandale 0
Falls Church 0
South County 0
West Potomac 0

These schools are the peers of most of the IB schools. Should we remove AP from these schools?

Not sure I understand the purpose of this post. I really don't think the National Merit list is a valid test for IB/AP. These are a handful of students in even the top schools. And, the deciding test, I think, is taken in the Junior year. So, I really don't see the point of using this stat.

The National Merit thing was brought up in a post by the troll claiming AP superiority based on NM semifinalists. True, several IB schools have many, but the purpose of the post was to show that many AP schools don't either...I agree it is not a good measure of the quality of a school.

You can argue all you want about IB vs. AP, but the problem is simply that the IB - AP dichotomy exist within FCPS - providing students an escape valve. Choosing AP or IB is frequently the justification for student transfers - and the direction of the transfer almost always favors the higher SES school. Think about the type of student that transfers - parents are motivated to make sure their student works hard, they probably speak English as a first language, and they probably do not qualify for F/R lunch (these aren't 100% true in all cases, but probably most of them). This means you are leaving students behind who are not likely to perform as well. This makes the school "perform" worse, leading to a downward spiral as more and more education first families avoid the school. Ironically FCPS put IB in number of the poorer schools in hopes of stemming middle class flight, but it actually made the problem worse in several cases and didn't help in others. Marshall, cited as an IB success story, actually strongly benefited from a location near Tysons that kept the SES relatively high and also from the transfer of education first students from Falls Church (remember, flowing from lower SES to higher SES) or other neighboring high schools.

It would be very interesting to have FCPS do a demographic study of transfer students. I have a feeling they wouldn't want to share the results.

If the School Board wants to fix the problem they should:

1. Switch all of the high schools back to AP (this was the case at one time in the county)
2. Bring more equity to the language programs throughout the county or find a way to deliver more language options to students at their local schools (since this is another escape valve)
3. Tighten the pupil placement policy

I would recommend changing boundaries in certain cases, but an elected school board is not about to tackle that problem. They have let schools diverge too much in F/R lunch rates and parents switched out of high SES schools would revolt.

Simple question: if Lee High School, with a 55% F/R lunch rate was made one of two IB schools in FCPS, how many families would choose to transfer their students to that school? Or would they stick with their local AP school? How much do people actually love IB? Enough to send their students to one of the poorest high schools in the county?

Actually, I said our School Board wouldn't tackle boundaries, but I actually don't think they are will to do anything I mentioned above to fix the high SES - low SES school divide. The folks at the higher SES schools vote in higher numbers.

*****************************************************************************

One more note: FCPS students earning the IB Diploma make up only 3% of total FCPS graduates every year - so you could do away with the IB Diploma and literally not effect 97% of the graduates. Students only taking IB classes and not earning the IB Diploma would do just as well, if not better, taking AP classes.

2016 Total FCPS Diplomas (25 high schools): 13234

2016 Total Diplomas at FCPS IB High Schools (8 high schools): 3792

2016 IB Diplomas at FCPS IB High Schools (8 high schools): 425 (11% of the total at IB high schools, and only 3% of total FCPS Diplomas)

Considering these numbers, plus the transfer issue, and the fact that IB costs twice as much as AP, only a complete lack of common sense from the School Board is keeping IB around.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"You have to look at how AP or IB is delivered in the individual school. A great deal of IB is based on pre-packaged content from the IBO that requires little individualized mentoring."

In IB the kids have to write, write, write. This can't be "pre-packaged". IB is completely focused on "individualized mentoring" and feedback on writing. This is why it's so successful at getting students to think. Or maybe you meant to write "AP"...

They can write all they want. It doesn't mean they know how to write, write anything of value, or receive much individual attention.

Just about all the best schools in NoVa are AP. You can keep your silly IB "programme" and call your kids "global citizens" all you want. They still attend sub-par schools that most people avoid if they have any better options.

Please stop demonstrating your failure of critical thinking. You are now putting down the IB kids without any evidence that they "write, write, write" nothing of value. Should we also say that the AP kids can take a bunch of multiple choice tests without actually demonstrating mastery of the material?

The IB program won't change those schools any more than putting AP there. It's not about IB vs AP. It is about SES. You can flip things around and put IB in Langley, Mclean, etc. - It won't make them any worse. The way FCPS implemented IB did a horrible disservice to both the IB program, and the lower performing schools where they implemented it. It gave a stigma to the whole program, and, through the "pupil placement" mechanism, allowed the "white flight" from the already challenged high schools. So I would agree that it should be implemented as a magnet, but I don't agree with trashing the program.

There are states like CA and FL where the IB program has much larger penetration. Their state schools offer significant scholarships and/or automatic admission to IB diploma candidates. They aren't stupid to do so, neither are the top schools who single out the IB diploma as a rigorous, well-established curriculum of study that evidences college readiness. You do you.

The impact on individual schools might be limited in the short run if FCPS switched all the AP schools over to IB, but there's absolutely no demand for that to happen, and it would actually encounter stiff opposition. But if FCPS converted a handful of its crown jewel AP schools to IB, it would absolutely have a negative impact on those schools, as families would move to other AP districts. IB has a well-deserved, bad reputation for not serving the needs of most students at most schools where it is installed, and families here would not put up with it, regardless of what gets foisted upon people in Florida.

West Springfield 2
Fairfax 1
Herndon 1
Stuart 1
Annandale 0
Falls Church 0
South County 0
West Potomac 0

These schools are the peers of most of the IB schools. Should we remove AP from these schools?

Not sure I understand the purpose of this post. I really don't think the National Merit list is a valid test for IB/AP. These are a handful of students in even the top schools. And, the deciding test, I think, is taken in the Junior year. So, I really don't see the point of using this stat.