Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Acknowledging the personal choice/responsibility is actually crucial to stopping the drug use. You know, the whole "want to get clean" part. Obviously when the addict is a teen with parents determined to excuse (enable) him it's an additional barrier. People like you are pathetic and selfish. The whole "it's not the addicts' fault!" Is actually a self-serving defense mechanism designed to protect your feelings.

It is a dangerous myth that only those "who want to get clean" can get clean. It's right along there with you have to hit rock bottom before you can get clean. Addiction is most easily treated in its earlier phases. If you wait for people to want to get clean or hit bottom there are almost no options left that work well. Court mandated rehab attendees have just as much success as voluntary rehab attendees.

It's not a myth, but common knowledge among families of addicts and alcoholics that someone who does not want to get sober for themselves will not stay sober.

This is a recipe for families and everyone else to just throw up their hands and give up. This is what leads parents to throw their addicted kids out of the house and make them a public charge. Before definitely giving up and living it time no addict fully and unreservedly wants to be clean.

The trick is to make addiction uncomfortable enough so that the addict has at least some small part of his brain that wants to get clean. Court mandated addicts may not want to get clean, but they'd rather do rehab than prison time, so some small part of their brain wants to be clean once they process that choice. Instilling and exploiting just the smallest shadow of a penumbra of a feeling that going clean may vaguely be better than the alternative can result in recovery success.

Many, many people attend their first NA meeting with just the vaguest idea that clean may be a better way or to get someone in their life off their back. They are not turned back and no one in NA would tell them they cannot get clean unless they really want to get clean.

Parents who say this are trying to justify why, scores of thousands of dollars late, their child's third rehab failed.

So you agree with me that addicts have to *want* to get clean. Make a personal choice to get clean. Okay then.

Dude, this isn't some kind of high school gotcha debate. Obviously it takes personal effort to beat addiction. But your simplistic view that "it's a personal choice" isn't what this poster is talking about. Believe it or not, the role of motivation in recovery is something that actual experts actually study. And it is much more complicated than saying "it's a personal choice." It takes support from others, which takes tax dollars, which takes investment by society. Not just "personal choice."

I have to wonder, in this day and age, how kids are still voluntarily taking this stuff recreationally. 10/15 years ago, it was different - the true extent of their addictiveness was not really known. But now I am seriously hearing about this epidemic multiple times a week, you can't turn on the news or see a magazine / newspaper or listen to the radio or scroll through social media without hearing about it. I honestly don't buy that there's any way a kid in high school right now could NOT know about this - am I wrong here?? 'Opioids are terribly addictive and people are overdosing all over the country, by the hundreds' seems to be a message that you can't even hide from anymore...

Other thoughts: I can't help but wonder in this area...I know there are some who are just looking for a fun time. But how many of these teens are turning to opioids from a place of hopelessness? The intense pressure to perform and succeed can be SO intense, and in my experience is a dangerous environment for kids predisposed to mental illness. This hit me later in life (ie grad school, not high school), and luckily I didn't turn to drugs...but after years of being in a constant anxious panic in very high stress academic environments, I sort of cracked - nothing visible to the outside world, but I stopped caring or feeling anything, and was just going through the motions of 'what I HAD to do' as if from a removed, detached point. (I know now this was depression, but it's not consistent with the vision of depression I had when I was a teenager and I definitely would have tried to hide it if I were younger)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Acknowledging the personal choice/responsibility is actually crucial to stopping the drug use. You know, the whole "want to get clean" part. Obviously when the addict is a teen with parents determined to excuse (enable) him it's an additional barrier. People like you are pathetic and selfish. The whole "it's not the addicts' fault!" Is actually a self-serving defense mechanism designed to protect your feelings.

It is a dangerous myth that only those "who want to get clean" can get clean. It's right along there with you have to hit rock bottom before you can get clean. Addiction is most easily treated in its earlier phases. If you wait for people to want to get clean or hit bottom there are almost no options left that work well. Court mandated rehab attendees have just as much success as voluntary rehab attendees.

It's not a myth, but common knowledge among families of addicts and alcoholics that someone who does not want to get sober for themselves will not stay sober.

This is a recipe for families and everyone else to just throw up their hands and give up. This is what leads parents to throw their addicted kids out of the house and make them a public charge. Before definitely giving up and living it time no addict fully and unreservedly wants to be clean.

The trick is to make addiction uncomfortable enough so that the addict has at least some small part of his brain that wants to get clean. Court mandated addicts may not want to get clean, but they'd rather do rehab than prison time, so some small part of their brain wants to be clean once they process that choice. Instilling and exploiting just the smallest shadow of a penumbra of a feeling that going clean may vaguely be better than the alternative can result in recovery success.

Many, many people attend their first NA meeting with just the vaguest idea that clean may be a better way or to get someone in their life off their back. They are not turned back and no one in NA would tell them they cannot get clean unless they really want to get clean.

Parents who say this are trying to justify why, scores of thousands of dollars late, their child's third rehab failed.

So you agree with me that addicts have to *want* to get clean. Make a personal choice to get clean. Okay then.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Agree with this. I absolutely sympathize with parents of teenage addicts and don't necessarily think it is the parents' fault, per se (although in many cases, I do think the parents could and should have done more. But not all cases). I have NO problem with someone saying "My kid was a good kid who made a stupid decision, and the price he's paying feels much higher than it should be." I get that. But acting as if your child is innocent, blameless, and a victim - nope. Not doing anyone any favors, him especially

Straw man. I don't see any parent of an addicted child claiming their child was blameless. I do seem them correctly pointing out environmental contributors to the addiction (legal prescriptions, the highly addictive nature of the drug, actual brain-based differences that make some people more prone to addiction). But you moralists are so caught up in blaming that you can't stand to hear that sometimes even if people weak, they still deserve society's help. Parents must give JUST the right note of contrition before they're deserving of your concern. Nope. Not your business.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

So what's your next step? The REAL meaning behind your statement is that you want parents to excoriate their own children as worthless addicts. What do you think this kind of punitive orientation is going to help with, exactly? Personally I don't care how a parent explains their child's situation to themselves, as long as they support their child in getting treatment. Why is it SO important to you that parents make a confession of their/their children's moral failing? Again NOBODY DISPUTES that addicts make a conscious choice to use drugs. We know that. You're caught up in the starting point that everyone has moved past ... and this says volumes more about you than the issues.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Acknowledging the personal choice/responsibility is actually crucial to stopping the drug use. You know, the whole "want to get clean" part. Obviously when the addict is a teen with parents determined to excuse (enable) him it's an additional barrier. People like you are pathetic and selfish. The whole "it's not the addicts' fault!" Is actually a self-serving defense mechanism designed to protect your feelings.

It is a dangerous myth that only those "who want to get clean" can get clean. It's right along there with you have to hit rock bottom before you can get clean. Addiction is most easily treated in its earlier phases. If you wait for people to want to get clean or hit bottom there are almost no options left that work well. Court mandated rehab attendees have just as much success as voluntary rehab attendees.

It's not a myth, but common knowledge among families of addicts and alcoholics that someone who does not want to get sober for themselves will not stay sober.

This is a recipe for families and everyone else to just throw up their hands and give up. This is what leads parents to throw their addicted kids out of the house and make them a public charge. Before definitely giving up and living it time no addict fully and unreservedly wants to be clean.

The trick is to make addiction uncomfortable enough so that the addict has at least some small part of his brain that wants to get clean. Court mandated addicts may not want to get clean, but they'd rather do rehab than prison time, so some small part of their brain wants to be clean once they process that choice. Instilling and exploiting just the smallest shadow of a penumbra of a feeling that going clean may vaguely be better than the alternative can result in recovery success.

Many, many people attend their first NA meeting with just the vaguest idea that clean may be a better way or to get someone in their life off their back. They are not turned back and no one in NA would tell them they cannot get clean unless they really want to get clean.

Parents who say this are trying to justify why, scores of thousands of dollars late, their child's third rehab failed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Agree with this. I absolutely sympathize with parents of teenage addicts and don't necessarily think it is the parents' fault, per se (although in many cases, I do think the parents could and should have done more. But not all cases). I have NO problem with someone saying "My kid was a good kid who made a stupid decision, and the price he's paying feels much higher than it should be." I get that. But acting as if your child is innocent, blameless, and a victim - nope. Not doing anyone any favors, him especially

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

+1. And what gets me is the parents who don't see the correlation to allowing underage drinking and looking the other way at things like pot smoking.

+1

Absolutely agree. I'm flabbergasted that legalizing recreational pot is a popular stance and becoming common in jurisdictions. Americans have a preoccupation with getting drunk/high. No surprise that in such a climate, kids will view opioid use as similarly harmless.

I'm just popping in here and haven't read all the other pages. But I completely disagree with this premise - I think kids (teens) should be frankly educated. There is no reason to throw up our hands and say well, now they'll just see opioid use as equally harmless....educate them! They're not stupid. I promise you kids as young as 13 are capable of comprehending this distinction. I actually think attitudes like yours backfire. Treat weed like a huge, terrible, life-ruining thing and a kid gets out in the world, sees how common and prevalent it is, and tries it...and it's no big deal. That in their mind discredits, to some extent, what they've been told about other "bad drugs" - it doesn't make sense to lump them all in together. But a kid can understand "this drug is dangerously addictive, there is an epidemic of death, check out XYZ resources with me" - it's like the "not even once" meth campaign when I was in high school. Such a distinction is very fathomable.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Acknowledging the personal choice/responsibility is actually crucial to stopping the drug use. You know, the whole "want to get clean" part. Obviously when the addict is a teen with parents determined to excuse (enable) him it's an additional barrier. People like you are pathetic and selfish. The whole "it's not the addicts' fault!" Is actually a self-serving defense mechanism designed to protect your feelings.

It is a dangerous myth that only those "who want to get clean" can get clean. It's right along there with you have to hit rock bottom before you can get clean. Addiction is most easily treated in its earlier phases. If you wait for people to want to get clean or hit bottom there are almost no options left that work well. Court mandated rehab attendees have just as much success as voluntary rehab attendees.

It's not a myth, but common knowledge among families of addicts and alcoholics that someone who does not want to get sober for themselves will not stay sober.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

+1. And what gets me is the parents who don't see the correlation to allowing underage drinking and looking the other way at things like pot smoking.

+1

Absolutely agree. I'm flabbergasted that legalizing recreational pot is a popular stance and becoming common in jurisdictions. Americans have a preoccupation with getting drunk/high. No surprise that in such a climate, kids will view opioid use as similarly harmless.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Anonymous wrote:

Acknowledging the personal choice/responsibility is actually crucial to stopping the drug use. You know, the whole "want to get clean" part. Obviously when the addict is a teen with parents determined to excuse (enable) him it's an additional barrier. People like you are pathetic and selfish. The whole "it's not the addicts' fault!" Is actually a self-serving defense mechanism designed to protect your feelings.

It is a dangerous myth that only those "who want to get clean" can get clean. It's right along there with you have to hit rock bottom before you can get clean. Addiction is most easily treated in its earlier phases. If you wait for people to want to get clean or hit bottom there are almost no options left that work well. Court mandated rehab attendees have just as much success as voluntary rehab attendees.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are missing the point. It is well known that teens and young adults take risks that flirt with death that older people will not. This is a desirable trait in a soldier, which is why recruitment in times of war focuses heavily on males in this age group. When the pre-frontal cortex is fully developed around age 24 or 25, people become far less likely to take these risks. You could also look at auto incident statistics by demographic. There is a reason young people pay higher premiums.

This relates to drug taking in young people--even if objectively they know there are risks they are much more likely than older people to think they can manage the risks and that the risks are overblown, as well as to fail to comprehend and/or care about longer term consequences. The people saying it's a choice are looking at it from the vantage point of a mature adult. But it is kind of like saying it's a choice if a toddler sticks his finger into a light socket. (And since you are so literal--yes I know this is an extreme analogy.)

Not disagreeing with you here on risk taking behavior by teens - but your analogy on choosing to get high vs. choosing military service was asinine.

Am, however, disagreeing with the implication that risk taking behavior by teens means they are absolved of responsibility. It is still a choice, a product of poor decision making. You can talk until you are blue in the face externalizing the blame, but in the end, your prep school son or daughter went out seeking a regular high and that is what got them addicted.

Of course it's a poor choice. But teens make lots and lots of poor choices that adults don't make, which is my point. This makes them much more susceptible to addiction in a way that adults are not. You can't expect teens making the bad choice to have the same deep knowledge, experience, and executive function as an adult with regard to the consequences of the choice. It's a different standard.