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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do people not understand there’s a shit ton of cheap housing in this area? PG, most of Silver Spring (it’s a massive area), Gaithersburg, etc? No one needs to move to Iowa. You just maybe can’t afford to live in Bethesda. Neither can I.

Define "cheap".

I don't understand why people believe this is a "Evearyone wants to live in Bethesda!!!!!!11111" problem.

The median Montgomery household ($125,000) can barely afford a townhouse in Clarksburg($500,000ish).

Denying the housing crisis is the new denying the crime crisis.

Which is why it’s a GOOD thing that developers are focusing on building more apartments and condos that the middle class can actually afford. Not everyone can afford or should be trying to buy a house. I’m sorry but it’s true.

Real middle class cannot afford $500K.

Real middle class in metro DC can. Two government workers are easily making 150-250k.

Two police officers making 160k combined can afford a 500k house. It may be tight but they can easily do it.

You're describing the upper range of government pay, not purely middle class. And certainly not young-family middle class.

No I’m not. Per MCPD(below). Two first year officers are making 130k+. That’s solid middle class and can afford a 500k home. Stop complaining about nothing.


Starting Salary for police officer candidates is $64,556 a year. Starting salaries based on police or military police experience:
$66,818 – 1 year experience
$69,156– 2 years experience
$71,576 – 3 years experience
$74,081– 4 years experience
$76,678 – 5 years experience

I am fine with rental breaks and house buying incentives (subsidized) for providers. No need to create housing, just give them a subsidy, tax break, mortgage boost or what not for regular rate housing. They make great neighbors anywhere. And then we can stop complaining they cant afford to live where they work.

+1. Everyone always brings up police officers, firefighters, and teachers. If there are certain professions where we've determined that they add value to neighborhoods, just give them appropriate incentives to buy housing. Could also help with the shortages in those professions. Seems like we keep having "affordable housing" as a goal, and we always bring up these professions, but is it reaching those people? We single out certain types of jobs in other areas (like public interest forgiveness for student loans), so it's not unprecedented to do something like this.

Or, we could enable the housing supply to increase to meet demand, so that everyone is able to afford housing, not just certain people deemed worthy of receiving public subsidies so they can afford housing they would otherwise be unable to afford.

There already is enough supply. That’s the point. It’s just that people entitled to own a 4 bedroom home with a garage in an expensive area of the country. They feel like they’re above living in a 2-3 BR apartment, which there are plenty of available. Or they are too picky with location.

It's actually very hard to find a 3 bedroom apartment and they don't build enough of them. I also think families need to get used to the idea of living in condos and apartments, but the apartment stock in the DC area is not always very conducive to families.

Part of the push for changing zoning is supposedly to build more family-friendly multifamily housing. For this you need larger units, and you need them designed for family life (i.e. bedrooms near each other but away from main living space, living spaces conducive to small children, building design that makes sense for people with kids and strollers, etc.) But developers have limited interested in serving this part of the market. The trend is toward smaller units, even micro units, aimed at singles and DINKs. The assumption is that families won't live in apartments, they'll move into SFH once they have kids. But increasingly it's hard for many families to afford SFHs (whether because close in housing is too expensive, or because further out housing requires an expensive and time consuming commute that also isn't conducive to having kids). So there genuinely is a lack of affordable housing for families, even if they are open to living in smaller homes or in multi-family housing.

- Signed, a parent who lives in an apartment and has no issue with that.

There's also a problem of the homes being built too big nowadays. Why is every new build on the market 3000+ square feet? What's wrong with putting 2 1200 square foot homes on the same plot of land instead?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No housing shortage, just a bunch of woke idiots trying to get zoning changes to get rid of single family homes in favor of multi-family units. Take your socialism somewhere else.

Troll on, but single family zoning is 1) rooted in racism 2) financially unsustainable and 3) investors should be allowed to build multi unit properties on their lots if they choose. Stop interfering with the housing market.

Then, please tell me where you live so I can buy and build a chemical plant next door. My land, my decision.

I’m thinking about a parking lot…where are all of these new people going to park their cars, especially after the county is removing parking requirements?

I’ll make a bundle.

Damn good idea. I'll turn my home into a parking lot in a SFH neighborhood.. this triplex people with 20 cars need to park somewhere!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No housing shortage, just a bunch of woke idiots trying to get zoning changes to get rid of single family homes in favor of multi-family units. Take your socialism somewhere else.

Troll on, but single family zoning is 1) rooted in racism 2) financially unsustainable and 3) investors should be allowed to build multi unit properties on their lots if they choose. Stop interfering with the housing market.

Then, please tell me where you live so I can buy and build a chemical plant next door. My land, my decision.

I’m thinking about a parking lot…where are all of these new people going to park their cars, especially after the county is removing parking requirements?

I’ll make a bundle.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What we need are more 3-4 bedroom apartments and condos, but zoning requirements make build them hard. They typically need to be larger buildings with long main hallways with a set of stairs on either end for fire safety. Instead we get lots of luxury 2 bedroom units since they are easy to build and accommodate in a structure.

Part of this is that many families with children don't want to live in apartments. People want a house with a yard for their kids to play in and it is also more profitable to rent out smaller units. https://www.westgaterents.com/apartments/va/manassas/floor-plans#/
Look at these apartments in Manassas for example. The monthly rent per sq. ft is the highest for a loft ($3.73 per sq. ft) and the lowest for a 3 bedroom (2.38 per sq. ft). There is clearly less demand for 3bd+ apartment units because families with children are less interested in them and most people prefer not to have roommates. If 3bd+ apartments were truly in high demand landlords would be able rent them for more money. Stair reform is not necessarily a bad idea (for buildings 5 stories or less), but I think this would predominately result in more 1 to 2 bd units.

Or landlords build more lofts because they can charge more because square feet.

Clearly you have a selective understanding of economics. It only matters when it fits your narrative. This is a supply and demand thing. Families with children are less interested in living in apartment buildings so these 3bd+ rent for less money.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No housing shortage, just a bunch of woke idiots trying to get zoning changes to get rid of single family homes in favor of multi-family units. Take your socialism somewhere else.

Troll on, but single family zoning is 1) rooted in racism 2) financially unsustainable and 3) investors should be allowed to build multi unit properties on their lots if they choose. Stop interfering with the housing market.

Then, please tell me where you live so I can buy and build a chemical plant next door. My land, my decision.

You're comparing a duplex to a chemical plant.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What we need are more 3-4 bedroom apartments and condos, but zoning requirements make build them hard. They typically need to be larger buildings with long main hallways with a set of stairs on either end for fire safety. Instead we get lots of luxury 2 bedroom units since they are easy to build and accommodate in a structure.

Part of this is that many families with children don't want to live in apartments. People want a house with a yard for their kids to play in and it is also more profitable to rent out smaller units. https://www.westgaterents.com/apartments/va/manassas/floor-plans#/
Look at these apartments in Manassas for example. The monthly rent per sq. ft is the highest for a loft ($3.73 per sq. ft) and the lowest for a 3 bedroom (2.38 per sq. ft). There is clearly less demand for 3bd+ apartment units because families with children are less interested in them and most people prefer not to have roommates. If 3bd+ apartments were truly in high demand landlords would be able rent them for more money. Stair reform is not necessarily a bad idea (for buildings 5 stories or less), but I think this would predominately result in more 1 to 2 bd units.

Or landlords build more lofts because they can charge more because square feet.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No housing shortage, just a bunch of woke idiots trying to get zoning changes to get rid of single family homes in favor of multi-family units. Take your socialism somewhere else.

Troll on, but single family zoning is 1) rooted in racism 2) financially unsustainable and 3) investors should be allowed to build multi unit properties on their lots if they choose. Stop interfering with the housing market.

Then, please tell me where you live so I can buy and build a chemical plant next door. My land, my decision.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do people not understand there’s a shit ton of cheap housing in this area? PG, most of Silver Spring (it’s a massive area), Gaithersburg, etc? No one needs to move to Iowa. You just maybe can’t afford to live in Bethesda. Neither can I.

Define "cheap".

I don't understand why people believe this is a "Evearyone wants to live in Bethesda!!!!!!11111" problem.

The median Montgomery household ($125,000) can barely afford a townhouse in Clarksburg($500,000ish).

Denying the housing crisis is the new denying the crime crisis.

Which is why it’s a GOOD thing that developers are focusing on building more apartments and condos that the middle class can actually afford. Not everyone can afford or should be trying to buy a house. I’m sorry but it’s true.

Real middle class cannot afford $500K.

Real middle class in metro DC can. Two government workers are easily making 150-250k.

Two police officers making 160k combined can afford a 500k house. It may be tight but they can easily do it.

You're describing the upper range of government pay, not purely middle class. And certainly not young-family middle class.

No I’m not. Per MCPD(below). Two first year officers are making 130k+. That’s solid middle class and can afford a 500k home. Stop complaining about nothing.


Starting Salary for police officer candidates is $64,556 a year. Starting salaries based on police or military police experience:
$66,818 – 1 year experience
$69,156– 2 years experience
$71,576 – 3 years experience
$74,081– 4 years experience
$76,678 – 5 years experience

I am fine with rental breaks and house buying incentives (subsidized) for providers. No need to create housing, just give them a subsidy, tax break, mortgage boost or what not for regular rate housing. They make great neighbors anywhere. And then we can stop complaining they cant afford to live where they work.

+1. Everyone always brings up police officers, firefighters, and teachers. If there are certain professions where we've determined that they add value to neighborhoods, just give them appropriate incentives to buy housing. Could also help with the shortages in those professions. Seems like we keep having "affordable housing" as a goal, and we always bring up these professions, but is it reaching those people? We single out certain types of jobs in other areas (like public interest forgiveness for student loans), so it's not unprecedented to do something like this.

Or, we could enable the housing supply to increase to meet demand, so that everyone is able to afford housing, not just certain people deemed worthy of receiving public subsidies so they can afford housing they would otherwise be unable to afford.

There already is enough supply. That’s the point. It’s just that people entitled to own a 4 bedroom home with a garage in an expensive area of the country. They feel like they’re above living in a 2-3 BR apartment, which there are plenty of available. Or they are too picky with location.

It's the "Everybody wants to live in Bethesda" argument again. I don't know where some people get the idea that everyone wants to live in Bethesda. Also the housing shortage is not caused by everybody wanting to live in Bethesda.

Yes, the perceived housing shortage directly arises from the idea that everyone should be able to live in whatever you can the "nicer" areas. Neither DC nor MoCo are growing that much. MoCo has plenty of underutilized commercial land that is ripe for condos, apartments, townhouses.

Anonymous wrote:

^^ Despite what a PP said earlier, this really is about everyone wanting to live in Bethesda, CC, Arlington, etc. The people complaining about affordable housing know that they can afford to buy a place in Montgomery Village, they just think they're too good for it.

I agree with you but the reason that people want to live in those areas is because of the quality of the schools. That's the uncompleted part of the sentence "affordable housing in the DMV with decent quality schools"

Then, the obvious answer is to improve the schools in other parts of the County. Everybody can't live in CC, B, etc.

Anonymous wrote:

^^ Despite what a PP said earlier, this really is about everyone wanting to live in Bethesda, CC, Arlington, etc. The people complaining about affordable housing know that they can afford to buy a place in Montgomery Village, they just think they're too good for it.

I agree with you but the reason that people want to live in those areas is because of the quality of the schools. That's the uncompleted part of the sentence "affordable housing in the DMV with decent quality schools"

It is possible to improve/support any school by putting effort into it as a parent. Being present, fundraising, building community.

^^ Despite what a PP said earlier, this really is about everyone wanting to live in Bethesda, CC, Arlington, etc. The people complaining about affordable housing know that they can afford to buy a place in Montgomery Village, they just think they're too good for it.

I agree with you but the reason that people want to live in those areas is because of the quality of the schools. That's the uncompleted part of the sentence "affordable housing in the DMV with decent quality schools"

^^ Despite what a PP said earlier, this really is about everyone wanting to live in Bethesda, CC, Arlington, etc. The people complaining about affordable housing know that they can afford to buy a place in Montgomery Village, they just think they're too good for it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

reggie14 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do people not understand there’s a shit ton of cheap housing in this area? PG, most of Silver Spring (it’s a massive area), Gaithersburg, etc? No one needs to move to Iowa. You just maybe can’t afford to live in Bethesda. Neither can I.

Define "cheap".

I don't understand why people believe this is a "Evearyone wants to live in Bethesda!!!!!!11111" problem.

The median Montgomery household ($125,000) can barely afford a townhouse in Clarksburg($500,000ish).

Denying the housing crisis is the new denying the crime crisis.

Which is why it’s a GOOD thing that developers are focusing on building more apartments and condos that the middle class can actually afford. Not everyone can afford or should be trying to buy a house. I’m sorry but it’s true.

Real middle class cannot afford $500K.

Real middle class in metro DC can. Two government workers are easily making 150-250k.

Two police officers making 160k combined can afford a 500k house. It may be tight but they can easily do it.

You're describing the upper range of government pay, not purely middle class. And certainly not young-family middle class.

No I’m not. Per MCPD(below). Two first year officers are making 130k+. That’s solid middle class and can afford a 500k home. Stop complaining about nothing.


Starting Salary for police officer candidates is $64,556 a year. Starting salaries based on police or military police experience:
$66,818 – 1 year experience
$69,156– 2 years experience
$71,576 – 3 years experience
$74,081– 4 years experience
$76,678 – 5 years experience

You're not buying a 500k house on a 130k income if you have kids. And certainly not if you're still paying off your student loans. You can't be that dense.

Who says the cop with 2 years
Of experience had kids?? They don’t even need a college degree so why would you assume they have college debt?

Go to Montgomery college, become a cop, work 10 years and you’ll
Be 32. If your spouse has an identical job you could be making 160k with zero debt and solid benefits. If you can’t afford a 500k house with a kid or two in public school you’re a moron. That’s not societies fault, it’s yours.

I take it you haven't looked at daycare prices in a couple decades.

I have a kid in daycare that costs me 2,900/mo. I’m aware. I’m also aware
The costs are dramatically lower further out.

What is wrong with this house out in Montgomery Village for a young family?

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/19845-Billings-Ct-Gaithersburg-MD-20886/37221907_zpid/?utm_campaign=iosappmessage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshare

With 10% down it’s just over 3k a month. Add in 1,500 for a modest daycare and they are starting at 4,500.

If they make 160k combined as two cops with 5-10yrs experience they should be taking home at least 10k a month depending on retirement savings. Can this family not survive on $5,000 of disposable income? Or is that address just too “boring” and they need to live in Chevy Chase?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What we need are more 3-4 bedroom apartments and condos, but zoning requirements make build them hard. They typically need to be larger buildings with long main hallways with a set of stairs on either end for fire safety. Instead we get lots of luxury 2 bedroom units since they are easy to build and accommodate in a structure.

Part of this is that many families with children don't want to live in apartments. People want a house with a yard for their kids to play in and it is also more profitable to rent out smaller units. https://www.westgaterents.com/apartments/va/manassas/floor-plans#/
Look at these apartments in Manassas for example. The monthly rent per sq. ft is the highest for a loft ($3.73 per sq. ft) and the lowest for a 3 bedroom (2.38 per sq. ft). There is clearly less demand for 3bd+ apartment units because families with children are less interested in them and most people prefer not to have roommates. If 3bd+ apartments were truly in high demand landlords would be able rent them for more money. Stair reform is not necessarily a bad idea (for buildings 5 stories or less), but I think this would predominately result in more 1 to 2 bd units.

Booo friggin hooooooo. You realize how many billions of people with families live in apartments their entire lives? Once again, stupid entitlement mentality.

Many of these countries have very low birth rates. So it seems to me that multifamily housing is just not very conducive to family life. We don’t want the US to become like South Korea with a TFR of 0.7. This will cause the country to collapse. So I think eliminating single family zoning is actually a terrible idea.