Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Maybe the OOS acceptance rate is higher for VT and JMU because the OOS kids who *are* applying have higher stats on average than the in-state kids. Is that a possibllity?

It's a possibility. But more likely is that if they want X out of state students to enroll, they know the yield will be much lower, so they have to admit more to achieve that. I'm no longer in VA, and I can tell you JMU and even VT are not on kid's lists for OOS schools. They are not a UMich or UWisconsin. So I suspect they may be safety/give it a whirl school choices for some in case they dont' get into something better.

Tell that to all the OOS parents on the FB pages of both those schools.
DP

I'm sure most of the OOS students at JMU and VaTech are all very excited to be there. They picked a school that's a great fit for THEIR kid.


However, I'm not in DCUM area anymore, and nobody applies to either of those, whereas I personally know 4 OOS attending UWisconsin and 2 attending UMich, from my kid's friends group and family. And there were several more who got in but chose elsewhere at the HS. Those two are extremely popular for Top State Flagships for OOS students.

Well.. UMich is close to T20 territory and is T20 for pretty much all academic departments. Wisconsin, while a tier below, is a robust, full-fledged state school and has been in that neighborhood for a while. Tech is just climbing into the T50 zone, that too thanks to some USNews woke math. JMU is a T100 at best. Can't compare.

From an experience perspective, can't beat the first two. From a salary outcomes perspective, the last 3 should be comparable.

Do people really choose where to go to college based on salary outcomes?

They think they do and it's ridiculous. So if the "outcome" are teachers and social workers and therapists and police officers, then they failed? If this is the case our society is doomed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Maybe the OOS acceptance rate is higher for VT and JMU because the OOS kids who *are* applying have higher stats on average than the in-state kids. Is that a possibllity?

It's a possibility. But more likely is that if they want X out of state students to enroll, they know the yield will be much lower, so they have to admit more to achieve that. I'm no longer in VA, and I can tell you JMU and even VT are not on kid's lists for OOS schools. They are not a UMich or UWisconsin. So I suspect they may be safety/give it a whirl school choices for some in case they dont' get into something better.

Tell that to all the OOS parents on the FB pages of both those schools.
DP

I'm sure most of the OOS students at JMU and VaTech are all very excited to be there. They picked a school that's a great fit for THEIR kid.


However, I'm not in DCUM area anymore, and nobody applies to either of those, whereas I personally know 4 OOS attending UWisconsin and 2 attending UMich, from my kid's friends group and family. And there were several more who got in but chose elsewhere at the HS. Those two are extremely popular for Top State Flagships for OOS students.

Well.. UMich is close to T20 territory and is T20 for pretty much all academic departments. Wisconsin, while a tier below, is a robust, full-fledged state school and has been in that neighborhood for a while. Tech is just climbing into the T50 zone, that too thanks to some USNews woke math. JMU is a T100 at best. Can't compare.

From an experience perspective, can't beat the first two. From a salary outcomes perspective, the last 3 should be comparable.

Do people really choose where to go to college based on salary outcomes?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Maybe the OOS acceptance rate is higher for VT and JMU because the OOS kids who *are* applying have higher stats on average than the in-state kids. Is that a possibllity?

It's a possibility. But more likely is that if they want X out of state students to enroll, they know the yield will be much lower, so they have to admit more to achieve that. I'm no longer in VA, and I can tell you JMU and even VT are not on kid's lists for OOS schools. They are not a UMich or UWisconsin. So I suspect they may be safety/give it a whirl school choices for some in case they dont' get into something better.

Tell that to all the OOS parents on the FB pages of both those schools.
DP

I'm sure most of the OOS students at JMU and VaTech are all very excited to be there. They picked a school that's a great fit for THEIR kid.


However, I'm not in DCUM area anymore, and nobody applies to either of those, whereas I personally know 4 OOS attending UWisconsin and 2 attending UMich, from my kid's friends group and family. And there were several more who got in but chose elsewhere at the HS. Those two are extremely popular for Top State Flagships for OOS students.

Well.. UMich is close to T20 territory and is T20 for pretty much all academic departments. Wisconsin, while a tier below, is a robust, full-fledged state school and has been in that neighborhood for a while. Tech is just climbing into the T50 zone, that too thanks to some USNews woke math. JMU is a T100 at best. Can't compare.

From an experience perspective, can't beat the first two. From a salary outcomes perspective, the last 3 should be comparable.

Do people really choose where to go to college based on salary outcomes?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Maybe the OOS acceptance rate is higher for VT and JMU because the OOS kids who *are* applying have higher stats on average than the in-state kids. Is that a possibllity?

It's a possibility. But more likely is that if they want X out of state students to enroll, they know the yield will be much lower, so they have to admit more to achieve that. I'm no longer in VA, and I can tell you JMU and even VT are not on kid's lists for OOS schools. They are not a UMich or UWisconsin. So I suspect they may be safety/give it a whirl school choices for some in case they dont' get into something better.

Tell that to all the OOS parents on the FB pages of both those schools.
DP

I'm sure most of the OOS students at JMU and VaTech are all very excited to be there. They picked a school that's a great fit for THEIR kid.


However, I'm not in DCUM area anymore, and nobody applies to either of those, whereas I personally know 4 OOS attending UWisconsin and 2 attending UMich, from my kid's friends group and family. And there were several more who got in but chose elsewhere at the HS. Those two are extremely popular for Top State Flagships for OOS students.

Well.. UMich is close to T20 territory and is T20 for pretty much all academic departments. Wisconsin, while a tier below, is a robust, full-fledged state school and has been in that neighborhood for a while. Tech is just climbing into the T50 zone, that too thanks to some USNews woke math. JMU is a T100 at best. Can't compare.

From an experience perspective, can't beat the first two. From a salary outcomes perspective, the last 3 should be comparable.

Do people really choose where to go to college based on salary outcomes?

Good question. Can't say we EVER researched that when looking at schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Maybe the OOS acceptance rate is higher for VT and JMU because the OOS kids who *are* applying have higher stats on average than the in-state kids. Is that a possibllity?

It's a possibility. But more likely is that if they want X out of state students to enroll, they know the yield will be much lower, so they have to admit more to achieve that. I'm no longer in VA, and I can tell you JMU and even VT are not on kid's lists for OOS schools. They are not a UMich or UWisconsin. So I suspect they may be safety/give it a whirl school choices for some in case they dont' get into something better.

Tell that to all the OOS parents on the FB pages of both those schools.
DP

I'm sure most of the OOS students at JMU and VaTech are all very excited to be there. They picked a school that's a great fit for THEIR kid.


However, I'm not in DCUM area anymore, and nobody applies to either of those, whereas I personally know 4 OOS attending UWisconsin and 2 attending UMich, from my kid's friends group and family. And there were several more who got in but chose elsewhere at the HS. Those two are extremely popular for Top State Flagships for OOS students.

Well.. UMich is close to T20 territory and is T20 for pretty much all academic departments. Wisconsin, while a tier below, is a robust, full-fledged state school and has been in that neighborhood for a while. Tech is just climbing into the T50 zone, that too thanks to some USNews woke math. JMU is a T100 at best. Can't compare.

From an experience perspective, can't beat the first two. From a salary outcomes perspective, the last 3 should be comparable.

Do people really choose where to go to college based on salary outcomes?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Maybe the OOS acceptance rate is higher for VT and JMU because the OOS kids who *are* applying have higher stats on average than the in-state kids. Is that a possibllity?

It's a possibility. But more likely is that if they want X out of state students to enroll, they know the yield will be much lower, so they have to admit more to achieve that. I'm no longer in VA, and I can tell you JMU and even VT are not on kid's lists for OOS schools. They are not a UMich or UWisconsin. So I suspect they may be safety/give it a whirl school choices for some in case they dont' get into something better.

Tell that to all the OOS parents on the FB pages of both those schools.
DP

I'm sure most of the OOS students at JMU and VaTech are all very excited to be there. They picked a school that's a great fit for THEIR kid.


However, I'm not in DCUM area anymore, and nobody applies to either of those, whereas I personally know 4 OOS attending UWisconsin and 2 attending UMich, from my kid's friends group and family. And there were several more who got in but chose elsewhere at the HS. Those two are extremely popular for Top State Flagships for OOS students.

Well.. UMich is close to T20 territory and is T20 for pretty much all academic departments. Wisconsin, while a tier below, is a robust, full-fledged state school and has been in that neighborhood for a while. Tech is just climbing into the T50 zone, that too thanks to some USNews woke math. JMU is a T100 at best. Can't compare.

From an experience perspective, can't beat the first two. From a salary outcomes perspective, the last 3 should be comparable.

Do people really choose where to go to college based on salary outcomes?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With VT now being in the top 50 in the US news, expect it will get only worse.

This year’s USNWR rankings are not based on academics and are irrelevant to many posters on DCUM.

Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier.

No USNWR changed the methodology and it's now largely non-academic.

Removing class size and high school ranking (if it's done) and portion of professors with terminal degrees IMO is important (HS ranking not as much so---but that's still there with GPA, etc). Class size is very telling of the quality of academics offered at a school. NO way you can convince me that a typical class with 30-40 students is not a much better learning experience than one with 500+ students (given the same quality of professor---obviously a bad prof is bad in all instances). It's simply a very different learning environment and no expert would try to convince you that the 500+ environment is better.

Adding in Pell Grant graduation rates really does not demonstrate how one school is better than the other, given that outside factors for those students are often the reason they don't graduate on time, not what the university does or doesn't do.

All it means is that State universities jumped in the rankings and private, less than 15K undergrad universities lost placement. That is mostly an indicator of class size and terminal degree. DOn't know about you but I prefer my kids to sit in classes with 25-50 kids where they can actively learn during a lecture and be engaged with a professor who is an expert in their field, not the TA who is a first year graduate student.

DP. Please tell us which universities in VA (since that's the subject of this thread) have 500+ class sizes? We'll wait.

We'll also wait for you to read the post this was responding to.

This was in response to post that stated: "Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier." So it was in response to why large public universities jumped in rankings over smaller private schools just this year with all the methodology changes.

It doesn’t matter what post it is responding to. What matters is that it’s flat wrong.

VA tech intro STEM classes are rather large. Check out Berkeley class sizes, and many of the UCs, as well as UIUC, UWashington, UWisconsin, and.....

In general, this is the case at many large state universities.

Meanwhile my two stem kids at T50 private schools have less than 100 in their intro STEM courses, most calculus/math classes are less than 50. It would also be this way at many other schools they considered/applied to.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Maybe the OOS acceptance rate is higher for VT and JMU because the OOS kids who *are* applying have higher stats on average than the in-state kids. Is that a possibllity?

It's a possibility. But more likely is that if they want X out of state students to enroll, they know the yield will be much lower, so they have to admit more to achieve that. I'm no longer in VA, and I can tell you JMU and even VT are not on kid's lists for OOS schools. They are not a UMich or UWisconsin. So I suspect they may be safety/give it a whirl school choices for some in case they dont' get into something better.

Tell that to all the OOS parents on the FB pages of both those schools.
DP

I'm sure most of the OOS students at JMU and VaTech are all very excited to be there. They picked a school that's a great fit for THEIR kid.


However, I'm not in DCUM area anymore, and nobody applies to either of those, whereas I personally know 4 OOS attending UWisconsin and 2 attending UMich, from my kid's friends group and family. And there were several more who got in but chose elsewhere at the HS. Those two are extremely popular for Top State Flagships for OOS students.

Well.. UMich is close to T20 territory and is T20 for pretty much all academic departments. Wisconsin, while a tier below, is a robust, full-fledged state school and has been in that neighborhood for a while. Tech is just climbing into the T50 zone, that too thanks to some USNews woke math. JMU is a T100 at best. Can't compare.

From an experience perspective, can't beat the first two. From a salary outcomes perspective, the last 3 should be comparable.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With VT now being in the top 50 in the US news, expect it will get only worse.

This year’s USNWR rankings are not based on academics and are irrelevant to many posters on DCUM.

Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier.

No USNWR changed the methodology and it's now largely non-academic.

Removing class size and high school ranking (if it's done) and portion of professors with terminal degrees IMO is important (HS ranking not as much so---but that's still there with GPA, etc). Class size is very telling of the quality of academics offered at a school. NO way you can convince me that a typical class with 30-40 students is not a much better learning experience than one with 500+ students (given the same quality of professor---obviously a bad prof is bad in all instances). It's simply a very different learning environment and no expert would try to convince you that the 500+ environment is better.

Adding in Pell Grant graduation rates really does not demonstrate how one school is better than the other, given that outside factors for those students are often the reason they don't graduate on time, not what the university does or doesn't do.

All it means is that State universities jumped in the rankings and private, less than 15K undergrad universities lost placement. That is mostly an indicator of class size and terminal degree. DOn't know about you but I prefer my kids to sit in classes with 25-50 kids where they can actively learn during a lecture and be engaged with a professor who is an expert in their field, not the TA who is a first year graduate student.

DP. Please tell us which universities in VA (since that's the subject of this thread) have 500+ class sizes? We'll wait.

We'll also wait for you to read the post this was responding to.

This was in response to post that stated: "Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier." So it was in response to why large public universities jumped in rankings over smaller private schools just this year with all the methodology changes.

It doesn’t matter what post it is responding to. What matters is that it’s flat wrong.

"Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Maybe the OOS acceptance rate is higher for VT and JMU because the OOS kids who *are* applying have higher stats on average than the in-state kids. Is that a possibllity?

It's a possibility. But more likely is that if they want X out of state students to enroll, they know the yield will be much lower, so they have to admit more to achieve that. I'm no longer in VA, and I can tell you JMU and even VT are not on kid's lists for OOS schools. They are not a UMich or UWisconsin. So I suspect they may be safety/give it a whirl school choices for some in case they dont' get into something better.

Tell that to all the OOS parents on the FB pages of both those schools.
DP

I'm sure most of the OOS students at JMU and VaTech are all very excited to be there. They picked a school that's a great fit for THEIR kid.


However, I'm not in DCUM area anymore, and nobody applies to either of those, whereas I personally know 4 OOS attending UWisconsin and 2 attending UMich, from my kid's friends group and family. And there were several more who got in but chose elsewhere at the HS. Those two are extremely popular for Top State Flagships for OOS students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With VT now being in the top 50 in the US news, expect it will get only worse.

This year’s USNWR rankings are not based on academics and are irrelevant to many posters on DCUM.

Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier.

No USNWR changed the methodology and it's now largely non-academic.

Removing class size and high school ranking (if it's done) and portion of professors with terminal degrees IMO is important (HS ranking not as much so---but that's still there with GPA, etc). Class size is very telling of the quality of academics offered at a school. NO way you can convince me that a typical class with 30-40 students is not a much better learning experience than one with 500+ students (given the same quality of professor---obviously a bad prof is bad in all instances). It's simply a very different learning environment and no expert would try to convince you that the 500+ environment is better.

Adding in Pell Grant graduation rates really does not demonstrate how one school is better than the other, given that outside factors for those students are often the reason they don't graduate on time, not what the university does or doesn't do.

All it means is that State universities jumped in the rankings and private, less than 15K undergrad universities lost placement. That is mostly an indicator of class size and terminal degree. DOn't know about you but I prefer my kids to sit in classes with 25-50 kids where they can actively learn during a lecture and be engaged with a professor who is an expert in their field, not the TA who is a first year graduate student.

You sound like every other class in State U has 500+ students. Which they obvious don’t. Your argument is specious.

In my experience, fresh/soph year for STEM/CS/Eng majors, that is the case for the core sequences or at least 200-300+. And IMO, once you hit 100+, and then again at 200+, you are not in an environment that includes engagement during the lecture. So first 2 years 3 of your 4 courses are exactly like that. And the ones that aren't are not typically 25 students at a large state U, unless you are a Russian Lit major.

And at the smaller private Universities, my kids are/have been taught by actual professors for all their courses. It's the Profs who hold office hours (so do TAs who run discussions/help with the course, but the profs always have weekly hours as well). My kid can easily schedule a meeting with their advisor the same day or next day. In fact, they had an advisor in their major assigned before they arrived on campus freshman year, who helped with course selection for fall freshman year.

I think the above adds great value to your education. And while I do care that a University is making an effort to ensure low income kids graduate, I'm smart enough to recognize that ultimately that depends upon many factors outside the university's control. So it's not an important part of "college quality"

DP. You specifically said "500+" in your earlier post. So you admit, you were lying. My DC attends VT and has never, ever had a class larger than 100 (34% of classes have fewer than 20 students) and has never had a TA teaching the class. Student to faculty ratio is 17:1. Profs all hold office hours, and advisors are easy to schedule appointments with. Oh! And my kid ALSO had an advisor in their major assigned to them the summer before freshman year, just like yours! The same advisor has been with my DC each year.

Great that you're happy with your kids' smaller, private universities, but it doesn't seem like you know very much about the schools your kids DON'T attend. Maybe you should stop making assumptions and sweeping generalizations?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Maybe the OOS acceptance rate is higher for VT and JMU because the OOS kids who *are* applying have higher stats on average than the in-state kids. Is that a possibllity?

It's a possibility. But more likely is that if they want X out of state students to enroll, they know the yield will be much lower, so they have to admit more to achieve that. I'm no longer in VA, and I can tell you JMU and even VT are not on kid's lists for OOS schools. They are not a UMich or UWisconsin. So I suspect they may be safety/give it a whirl school choices for some in case they dont' get into something better.

Tell that to all the OOS parents on the FB pages of both those schools.
DP

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Anonymous wrote:With VT now being in the top 50 in the US news, expect it will get only worse.

This year’s USNWR rankings are not based on academics and are irrelevant to many posters on DCUM.

Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier.

No USNWR changed the methodology and it's now largely non-academic.

Removing class size and high school ranking (if it's done) and portion of professors with terminal degrees IMO is important (HS ranking not as much so---but that's still there with GPA, etc). Class size is very telling of the quality of academics offered at a school. NO way you can convince me that a typical class with 30-40 students is not a much better learning experience than one with 500+ students (given the same quality of professor---obviously a bad prof is bad in all instances). It's simply a very different learning environment and no expert would try to convince you that the 500+ environment is better.

Adding in Pell Grant graduation rates really does not demonstrate how one school is better than the other, given that outside factors for those students are often the reason they don't graduate on time, not what the university does or doesn't do.

All it means is that State universities jumped in the rankings and private, less than 15K undergrad universities lost placement. That is mostly an indicator of class size and terminal degree. DOn't know about you but I prefer my kids to sit in classes with 25-50 kids where they can actively learn during a lecture and be engaged with a professor who is an expert in their field, not the TA who is a first year graduate student.

DP. Please tell us which universities in VA (since that's the subject of this thread) have 500+ class sizes? We'll wait.

We'll also wait for you to read the post this was responding to.

This was in response to post that stated: "Only because the second tier private schools that they’ve been sending the kids to have finally been revealed for what they are, which is second-tier." So it was in response to why large public universities jumped in rankings over smaller private schools just this year with all the methodology changes.

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Anonymous wrote:VA is definitely in the top 3 as far as public education at the college level. Its second tier schools JMU, GMU, etc, are better than a number of state flagships.

Berkeley, UCLA, and Michigan are clearly the top three. UVA is number 5 now, below UNC. Try to keep up.

Try to read. The state of Virginia is in the top 3 states in the US with respect to public education options. Schools like JMU and GMU are better options than Ole Miss or Mizzou.

Is JMU really better than Mizzou?

In many rankings they are basically the same. However, Mizzou is their state's Flagship. JMU is largely considered the #4/5 school in VA.

JMU and Mizzou are tied in the rankings, regardless of "flagship" status:

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/james-madison-university-3721
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-missouri-2516