White males benefit from an in office experience more than others. Just showing up in person helps them be part of the boys club. In no way does the financial gain from building morale and in office collaboration outweigh the expense of loss of time and office space overhead. This is bs. The office is built for the logistical and social comforts of white men. They are the ones that are bitter than we don’t all return. If we aren’t there to see their whiteness and maleness thrown into our face every day how will they feel superior to everyone else. If they lose their forum to talk sports and take long business lunches how will they show their worth.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am not anti wfh but my office has mandatory in-person days and when one person is home on one of those days we then have to spend the first five minutes of each meeting logging into the zoom so that one person can participate, which is annoying. I also find that less informal mentoring happens when people are remote. That not probably not a big deal for the people on DCUM, but I do worry it could impact the careers of people just starting out.

I agree with this. There are lots of pointers that older managers give to younger people in person that they aren't necessarily going to commit to writing---especially strategy and inside info on how to deal with other managerial personalities. And I do not necessarily believe that any work training events held on Zoom command the same engagement or attention that they do when held in a room where it quickly becomes very noticeable who is on their phone and not engaging with the matter at hand. I do like one day a week of WFH because it enables me to set aside that day to complete tasks that require intensive concentration for a longer period of time. But I wish we would get to an equilibrium of four days a week in the office.

I am constantly providing feedback and mentoring in phone calls, zoom, and email. These junior employees still are doing subpar work. I don't think in person would fix that. If anything, I'm less specific and direct in person.

I hate to say this because I am the senior non-management employee well-suited to WFH, but when you are less specific and direct in person they had the option to run to my office and ask ok, WTF does she actually want me to do. But if the junior employee is remote, or is in person but none of the senior employees are in person, they aren’t getting the guidance they need.

DP. Not the case in my office. They are learning faster by making mistakes and getting corrected, instead of procrastinating and letting the elders lead for them. The new employees are all doing really well! Better than many of the old timers.

+1 I do see this for sure. It's a confidence builder and better leaders will come of it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am not anti wfh but my office has mandatory in-person days and when one person is home on one of those days we then have to spend the first five minutes of each meeting logging into the zoom so that one person can participate, which is annoying. I also find that less informal mentoring happens when people are remote. That not probably not a big deal for the people on DCUM, but I do worry it could impact the careers of people just starting out.

I agree with this. There are lots of pointers that older managers give to younger people in person that they aren't necessarily going to commit to writing---especially strategy and inside info on how to deal with other managerial personalities. And I do not necessarily believe that any work training events held on Zoom command the same engagement or attention that they do when held in a room where it quickly becomes very noticeable who is on their phone and not engaging with the matter at hand. I do like one day a week of WFH because it enables me to set aside that day to complete tasks that require intensive concentration for a longer period of time. But I wish we would get to an equilibrium of four days a week in the office.

I am constantly providing feedback and mentoring in phone calls, zoom, and email. These junior employees still are doing subpar work. I don't think in person would fix that. If anything, I'm less specific and direct in person.

Yesss I'm up early to spoon-feed my overseas team on a call. I would never physically go to the office to do this call, ever. So they get more spoonfeeding precisely because I'm home. Also, per the above why do they need so much handholding?

I'm the PP you quoted. Same boat I guess! Sorry you're experiencing this too.

I thought of another "collaboration" feature that will reduce in my workplace with RTO. I'm no longer going to be available for meetings after 4 with the west coast. Now I am, because I don't have to commute. Once I have to do that slog every day, it's back to DOD hours with few exceptions.

Exactly! You get RTO you get more asynch for folks like us. I think we all prefer real-time collaboration and WFH, including management.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jealousy. Simple as that. “If I can’t have it, I don’t want you to have it either” mindset.

+100 Also there are the super lonely people who's whole social life revolves going to work and going around to other people's offices and hanging around the kitchen telling long stories about ALL their cats and the crazy things their cats do all the time.

This is exactly it. They use their job for their entire social needs and expect everyone else to do the same. And NO Marge we don't want to hear what Fluffy the 2nd did last night! Get a life and leave the WFH people alone. No one like you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have four adult kids. Three are now back to work (required) while one is 100 percent work from home. She has two jobs. Her “full time” employer doesn’t know about the second job. She works hard, is efficient, and doesn’t mess around. But she puts in 40 hours a week, tops. She absolutely could not do what she’s doing if she had to report to an office.

So my sample size is one. But I find it really hard to believe that she is the only remote worker in America who is working a second job behind her primary employer’s back. I’m betting it’s a widespread practice.

As long as she’s completing her work on time, does it matter?

This, but also, people have had second jobs long before WFH ramped up during COVID. Is that poster brand new to the world?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am not anti wfh but my office has mandatory in-person days and when one person is home on one of those days we then have to spend the first five minutes of each meeting logging into the zoom so that one person can participate, which is annoying. I also find that less informal mentoring happens when people are remote. That not probably not a big deal for the people on DCUM, but I do worry it could impact the careers of people just starting out.

I agree with this. There are lots of pointers that older managers give to younger people in person that they aren't necessarily going to commit to writing---especially strategy and inside info on how to deal with other managerial personalities. And I do not necessarily believe that any work training events held on Zoom command the same engagement or attention that they do when held in a room where it quickly becomes very noticeable who is on their phone and not engaging with the matter at hand. I do like one day a week of WFH because it enables me to set aside that day to complete tasks that require intensive concentration for a longer period of time. But I wish we would get to an equilibrium of four days a week in the office.

I am constantly providing feedback and mentoring in phone calls, zoom, and email. These junior employees still are doing subpar work. I don't think in person would fix that. If anything, I'm less specific and direct in person.

I hate to say this because I am the senior non-management employee well-suited to WFH, but when you are less specific and direct in person they had the option to run to my office and ask ok, WTF does she actually want me to do. But if the junior employee is remote, or is in person but none of the senior employees are in person, they aren’t getting the guidance they need.

DP. Not the case in my office. They are learning faster by making mistakes and getting corrected, instead of procrastinating and letting the elders lead for them. The new employees are all doing really well! Better than many of the old timers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am not anti wfh but my office has mandatory in-person days and when one person is home on one of those days we then have to spend the first five minutes of each meeting logging into the zoom so that one person can participate, which is annoying. I also find that less informal mentoring happens when people are remote. That not probably not a big deal for the people on DCUM, but I do worry it could impact the careers of people just starting out.

I agree with this. There are lots of pointers that older managers give to younger people in person that they aren't necessarily going to commit to writing---especially strategy and inside info on how to deal with other managerial personalities. And I do not necessarily believe that any work training events held on Zoom command the same engagement or attention that they do when held in a room where it quickly becomes very noticeable who is on their phone and not engaging with the matter at hand. I do like one day a week of WFH because it enables me to set aside that day to complete tasks that require intensive concentration for a longer period of time. But I wish we would get to an equilibrium of four days a week in the office.

I am constantly providing feedback and mentoring in phone calls, zoom, and email. These junior employees still are doing subpar work. I don't think in person would fix that. If anything, I'm less specific and direct in person.

Yesss I'm up early to spoon-feed my overseas team on a call. I would never physically go to the office to do this call, ever. So they get more spoonfeeding precisely because I'm home. Also, per the above why do they need so much handholding?

I'm the PP you quoted. Same boat I guess! Sorry you're experiencing this too.

I thought of another "collaboration" feature that will reduce in my workplace with RTO. I'm no longer going to be available for meetings after 4 with the west coast. Now I am, because I don't have to commute. Once I have to do that slog every day, it's back to DOD hours with few exceptions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am not anti wfh but my office has mandatory in-person days and when one person is home on one of those days we then have to spend the first five minutes of each meeting logging into the zoom so that one person can participate, which is annoying. I also find that less informal mentoring happens when people are remote. That not probably not a big deal for the people on DCUM, but I do worry it could impact the careers of people just starting out.

I agree with this. There are lots of pointers that older managers give to younger people in person that they aren't necessarily going to commit to writing---especially strategy and inside info on how to deal with other managerial personalities. And I do not necessarily believe that any work training events held on Zoom command the same engagement or attention that they do when held in a room where it quickly becomes very noticeable who is on their phone and not engaging with the matter at hand. I do like one day a week of WFH because it enables me to set aside that day to complete tasks that require intensive concentration for a longer period of time. But I wish we would get to an equilibrium of four days a week in the office.

I am constantly providing feedback and mentoring in phone calls, zoom, and email. These junior employees still are doing subpar work. I don't think in person would fix that. If anything, I'm less specific and direct in person.

Yesss I'm up early to spoon-feed my overseas team on a call. I would never physically go to the office to do this call, ever. So they get more spoonfeeding precisely because I'm home. Also, per the above why do they need so much handholding?

A lot of people cannot work effectively from home as it requires you to know how to work with a structure. I have WFH for the better part of 15 years. My DH for example hates to WFH and can't do it well. You really have to focus and you don't have to keep working all day. But a lot if people just do not have the ability to self manage and it's not a criticism but the reality. Different ways for different folks.

For people like me WFH it is the best. But you know it's hard to have that mix I get it. If some do and some don't it doesn't quite work as well. Also as some jobs require being out of the home I firmly believe done do not require it at all.

It's a hard situation with no easy answers. Often I wonder ti myself why everyone doesn't prefer WFH but then I see DH haha. I can work really hard and take a break and return to that level of intensity and make my own schedule. I love the flex and freedom of not needing to be social and to work in my PJs. I love not wasting commute time and working getting shit done. I can run errands and I can see my kids after school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am not anti wfh but my office has mandatory in-person days and when one person is home on one of those days we then have to spend the first five minutes of each meeting logging into the zoom so that one person can participate, which is annoying. I also find that less informal mentoring happens when people are remote. That not probably not a big deal for the people on DCUM, but I do worry it could impact the careers of people just starting out.

I agree with this. There are lots of pointers that older managers give to younger people in person that they aren't necessarily going to commit to writing---especially strategy and inside info on how to deal with other managerial personalities. And I do not necessarily believe that any work training events held on Zoom command the same engagement or attention that they do when held in a room where it quickly becomes very noticeable who is on their phone and not engaging with the matter at hand. I do like one day a week of WFH because it enables me to set aside that day to complete tasks that require intensive concentration for a longer period of time. But I wish we would get to an equilibrium of four days a week in the office.

I am constantly providing feedback and mentoring in phone calls, zoom, and email. These junior employees still are doing subpar work. I don't think in person would fix that. If anything, I'm less specific and direct in person.

I hate to say this because I am the senior non-management employee well-suited to WFH, but when you are less specific and direct in person they had the option to run to my office and ask ok, WTF does she actually want me to do. But if the junior employee is remote, or is in person but none of the senior employees are in person, they aren’t getting the guidance they need.

Thought this was interesting. And have to say, I agree with the article & OP, at least in the sense that the RTO urgency is still a little mystifying to me (and I work hybrid & am OK with it, but really couldn't care less who else is in the office on any given day...).

Paranoia
A 2022 study from Microsoft found that employee productivity increased across several measures, and yet 85% of leaders said they had difficulty believing employees were being productive during hybrid work. Traditional visual cues of productivity have become limited.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careers/study-after-study-shows-that-working-from-home-leads-to-more-efficiency-and-higher-quality-work-so-why-do-companies-want-people-back-in-the-office-here-are-3-possible-reasons/ar-AA1eUgZq?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=d3fcff0d9dd547028d6d8ada5efd75a0&ei=7

Also, both I and DH (and many of the people we know) are in industries that bill (and no, not just lawyers), which makes the whole issue even more irrational.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jealousy. Simple as that. “If I can’t have it, I don’t want you to have it either” mindset.

+100 Also there are the super lonely people who's whole social life revolves going to work and going around to other people's offices and hanging around the kitchen telling long stories about ALL their cats and the crazy things their cats do all the time.

Hahaha I have a coworker like this but I think this coworker would actually much rather be WFH. Taking care of the cats.

I like hybrid. I like going in and I like WFH and see the benefits of both. We’re 4 days per PP which I think is ideal but if we have to go to 6 PP I guess I’d live with it. Honestly, I’d go in every day if I could leave and be home in time for my younger one to get home from ES school, but WFH a few days a week has relieved us from paying for full time after care and allows us the flexibility to enroll in various after school activities. Being stuck in an office between the hrs of 4-5:30 completely sucks as a working parent and I can’t start my day in the office at 7:30am to be home by 4 so it’s a catch 22. I’m way more likely to start my day early and end my day late when WFH. When I’m in the office at 5:30 hits I’m outta there.

Anonymous wrote:

I am not anti wfh but my office has mandatory in-person days and when one person is home on one of those days we then have to spend the first five minutes of each meeting logging into the zoom so that one person can participate, which is annoying. I also find that less informal mentoring happens when people are remote. That not probably not a big deal for the people on DCUM, but I do worry it could impact the careers of people just starting out.

I agree with this. There are lots of pointers that older managers give to younger people in person that they aren't necessarily going to commit to writing---especially strategy and inside info on how to deal with other managerial personalities. And I do not necessarily believe that any work training events held on Zoom command the same engagement or attention that they do when held in a room where it quickly becomes very noticeable who is on their phone and not engaging with the matter at hand. I do like one day a week of WFH because it enables me to set aside that day to complete tasks that require intensive concentration for a longer period of time. But I wish we would get to an equilibrium of four days a week in the office.

I am constantly providing feedback and mentoring in phone calls, zoom, and email. These junior employees still are doing subpar work. I don't think in person would fix that. If anything, I'm less specific and direct in person.

Anonymous wrote:The last two years I worked for a fully remote company.

If anything it was an “young boys club” the give you KPIs and that is strict measure judged one. Some had KPIs that required 10-13 hours of work a day to keep up.

If you were “hooked up” you get zero KPIs and boss would do override to get you bonus and raises.

All your manager had to do was assign you more work or assign you the crappy work. Being 100 percent remote you can’t see Bob doing nothing 7 hours a day while you work 12 hours a day.

We were a big Bros before Hos type place. We were 80 percent men in management. And over 35 well very rare. Remote hard to prove anything.

And with that, this thread has jumped the shark.