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Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

A tribe can only hold onto land until a stronger tribe comes along and takes it from them. That's the way of the world.

No, we're not giving our land back to tribes that couldn't hold onto it in the first place.

Question here, would you support more modern day colonization? If the US is a "stronger tribe" why do we not just go overtake a lot more land mass than we already have? We are getting crowded and low on natural resources....why not go take them?

Trust me if we needed to, we would. The same way if your children were hungry, you'd steal from your neighbor.

But what does it mean to "need to." Did the early settlers "need to" take over this land? And later did the British government "need to" formally invade and take over?

I read the PP as saying that it is "the way of the world" for people to just take what they want as long as they have the force to do it.

Yes actually European immigration was largely based on necessity. Things like famine and class/religious persecution. The wealthy few were exploiting the whole thing for massive personal gain but that is still happening today.

This is not a well-informed viewpoint. The formal government of the country invaded, and it wasn't because of either famine or class/religious persecution.

The formal “government”?! You mean a brutal blood-line Monarchy that had perfected the art of subjugation over the course of thousands of years? That’s the fault of the commoner?

I'm not sure what you are taking issue with. One PP said that populations should only colonize out of necessity. Another said that there was a necessity because of poverty and starvation. I said that was not the reason. It was the government (say rulers if you want) that did it to gain more wealth.

Where do you see a fault in that?

The Kings stayed in Europe. The actual human beings that physically immigrated to the continent were largely escaping horrible oppression and poverty in Europe. Those are simple facts. I have no idea what is so confusing about that. It’s documented historical fact.

What group of people, specifically, are you talking about?

I don’t dispute that there were poor people involved. But your reductionist view is simply not “documented historical fact.”

DP. This is AP US History. The Quakers came to escape persecution and settled in Pennsylvania. The Catholics came to Maryland to escape persecution. The pilgrims, Moravians, and others left Europe to escape persecution. Many others were poor and looking for new opportunities, or they came over as indentured servants.

The Quakers settled in Pennsylvania because William Penn was given a land grant BY THE KING OF ENGLAND.

https://www.history.com/topics/immigration/history-of-quakerism

He was also the son of a wealthy politician who got the colony in part because the king owed his dad money. He also was genuinely persecuted for his Quaker beliefs. It's complicated, and PP was right to call the "largely escaping horrible oppression and poverty" view reductionist.

-NP

Oh but the view that colonization was not necessary but purely economic is not reductionist as well? How does one make that distinction?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd like it to be 2 days too. Maybe Thanksgiving Thursday stays, and day after, Friday, is a Native American day of remembrance.

I’d like this. I’d like it even more if we could do celebrate with something other than a shopping frenzy.

Why do you hate America

NP. I hate genocide.

Tell that to the Aztecs. They slaughtered thousands of other Native-American tribes in Mexico long before any Europeans arrived.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Indigenous groups and land-back advocates believe so, and they will gather at the rock called Plymouth to demonstrate.

Should we at least change the name?

Let those grifters go live in some remote mountain the way their primitive ancestors did. There's plenty of land in the world -- who's stopping them?

You and your racist children are.

Boooorrriiiinnnnng.

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Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

It’s not about personal guilt or responsibility. It’s doing what we can to acknowledge the massive wrongs committed by our government and to fix what we can. Being part of this country’s future means dealing with this country’s past.

I have no interest on dwelling on the past. Thanks.

You get the bad with the good. It’s not a la cart.

Wrong! I’m doing a great job of celebrating the good and mostly ignoring the bad. Thanks for coming, though.

It is what it is. It won’t go away if you put your head in the sand.

Neat. You’re still wrong.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

Are you a citizen? Then you are a member of the government that has inherited the treaties with the tribes that are being violated today. Sorry!

I'm not a member of any government, and I don't have any responsibility, or sense of guilt, for what some people did decades or centuries ago.

You can keep saying I should care about this, and I'll keep telling you I won't.

And there's nothing you can do about it.

If you are white, you are responsible. Period!

No, we’re not. Period!

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

Yes, you certainly are responsible, if you are white.

You benefit from unearned white privilege. And even if you don’t believe you are a racist, you participate and perpetuate systemic white racism by being here.

Nope.

We're tired of this nonsense. It doesn't make sense and we're moving on.

Indifference and ignorance. The American way. 🦃

Yawn. You’re so incredibly dull.

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Anonymous wrote:Discussion tangent:

Something I realized after reading "Guns, Germs and Steel" was that, even if the European explorers and setters arrive in the Americas with nothing but kind hearts and friendly intentions, they still would have pretty much wiped out the indigenous population within the same time frame; the diseases they brought with them would still have spread just as much in such a vulnerable population.

Another tangent - I'm teaching 5th grade social studies and we are just discussing European explorers and settlers of the "new world" right now. I never had such an easy time getting student (these are ESOL students) to understand the term "epidemic" before, or why so many Native Americans were susceptible to the diseases the Europeans brought. Talk about "lived experience".

Anyhow,

Thanksgiving is our only truly American holiday, that everyone can celebrate regardless of religion. It doesn't have to have anything to do with Native Americans, though. It can just be a day of thanks for food and family.

I guess our ancestors shouldn’t have pushed the fake pilgrim story then.

The 4th of July is a “truly American holiday”.

The fake pilgrim story was invented in the mid to late 1800s as way to bring the country together. Now we're taking the story apart. But we have nothing to replace it with. Similar to the wider parallel.

We could collectively look at it as a chance to bring ALL of the country together instead of just the white, male colonizers. Day of mourning *and* healing.

We have enough depressing days of mourning and reflection in this country. Can’t we have any damn fun anymore? This country has become so depressing.

Yes, you can blow off your fingers for fun on the 4th. Indulge in excessive consumerism on Xmas. Worship the pigskin gods on Super Bowl Sunday. Get your sugar rush on Easter. Get drunk on new years. If you’re not already having fun you’re doing it wrong.

Plus, you are an adult. Welcome to life. It’s not all fun.

Thanksgiving isn’t going to become a national day of mourning. It’s going to continue to be a family holiday where people eat too much turkey and pie and watch football. Welcome to life. Cope harder.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

A tribe can only hold onto land until a stronger tribe comes along and takes it from them. That's the way of the world.

No, we're not giving our land back to tribes that couldn't hold onto it in the first place.

Question here, would you support more modern day colonization? If the US is a "stronger tribe" why do we not just go overtake a lot more land mass than we already have? We are getting crowded and low on natural resources....why not go take them?

Trust me if we needed to, we would. The same way if your children were hungry, you'd steal from your neighbor.

But what does it mean to "need to." Did the early settlers "need to" take over this land? And later did the British government "need to" formally invade and take over?

I read the PP as saying that it is "the way of the world" for people to just take what they want as long as they have the force to do it.

Yes actually European immigration was largely based on necessity. Things like famine and class/religious persecution. The wealthy few were exploiting the whole thing for massive personal gain but that is still happening today.

This is not a well-informed viewpoint. The formal government of the country invaded, and it wasn't because of either famine or class/religious persecution.

The formal “government”?! You mean a brutal blood-line Monarchy that had perfected the art of subjugation over the course of thousands of years? That’s the fault of the commoner?

I'm not sure what you are taking issue with. One PP said that populations should only colonize out of necessity. Another said that there was a necessity because of poverty and starvation. I said that was not the reason. It was the government (say rulers if you want) that did it to gain more wealth.

Where do you see a fault in that?

The Kings stayed in Europe. The actual human beings that physically immigrated to the continent were largely escaping horrible oppression and poverty in Europe. Those are simple facts. I have no idea what is so confusing about that. It’s documented historical fact.

What group of people, specifically, are you talking about?

I don’t dispute that there were poor people involved. But your reductionist view is simply not “documented historical fact.”

DP. This is AP US History. The Quakers came to escape persecution and settled in Pennsylvania. The Catholics came to Maryland to escape persecution. The pilgrims, Moravians, and others left Europe to escape persecution. Many others were poor and looking for new opportunities, or they came over as indentured servants.

Catholics settled in Maryland because THE KING OF ENGLAND gave Lord Baltimore a land grant in exchange for a share of the profits from the colonization.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-settlement-of-maryland

So the king solved two problems: new settlers to develop the land and (self) deportation of some religious dissidents. He also created a new revenue stream for the monarchy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another attempt to ruin a holiday by shaming Americans.

Get your own holiday to cry over.

America does have a dark past. We should reflect on the massive human cost of building this country.

-Mayflower descendant

Every country on earth has a dark past. You should acknowledge those events but don’t dwell on them in the present especially after 100+ years

The impacts of the US government’s brutal violence and assimilation are still felt today. It’s a current day issue.

It is important to discuss history and *educate* on what really happened and its impacts vs. perpetuating narratives that are untrue and minimize or deny the impacts. But the PP is right - All of *human history* is story after story of one group conquering another group. How far back do we go? These things are still happening in places around the globe today. We never learn. How are modern-day Americans responsible for this? They aren't. None of us were alive and had anything to do with it.

You can try and fight (change?) human nature for the future, but the people who did the things you are talking about are dead.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

A tribe can only hold onto land until a stronger tribe comes along and takes it from them. That's the way of the world.

No, we're not giving our land back to tribes that couldn't hold onto it in the first place.

Question here, would you support more modern day colonization? If the US is a "stronger tribe" why do we not just go overtake a lot more land mass than we already have? We are getting crowded and low on natural resources....why not go take them?

Trust me if we needed to, we would. The same way if your children were hungry, you'd steal from your neighbor.

But what does it mean to "need to." Did the early settlers "need to" take over this land? And later did the British government "need to" formally invade and take over?

I read the PP as saying that it is "the way of the world" for people to just take what they want as long as they have the force to do it.

Yes actually European immigration was largely based on necessity. Things like famine and class/religious persecution. The wealthy few were exploiting the whole thing for massive personal gain but that is still happening today.

The primary motivator for conquest of America was "economic opportunity." But that doesn't mean it was starvation or poverty. It was a means of accumulating more wealth FOR the wealthy few.

Then why did Native Americans conquer other tribes? Some more noble reason?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s almost as if people don’t realize that life is a competition.

It’s almost as if people don’t realize that rising above our base instincts is what makes us human.

Actually its just our ability to use tools and invent religions to explain science we don't understand.

Hey, tools are important! Also opposable thumbs.

List of ritual sacrifices by Aztecs by month:

Atlacacauallo (from February 2 to February 21) Tláloc, Chalchitlicue, Ehécatl Sacrifice of children and captives to the water deities
II Tlacaxipehualiztli (from February 22 to March 13) Xipe Tótec, Huitzilopochtli, Tequitzin-Mayáhuel Sacrifice of captives; gladiatorial fighters; dances of the priest wearing the skin of the flayed victims
III Tozoztontli (from March 14 to April 2) Coatlicue, Tlaloc, Chalchitlicue, Tona Type of sacrifice: extraction of the heart; burying of the flayed human skins; sacrifices of children
IV Hueytozoztli (from April 3 to April 22) Cintéotl, Chicomecacóatl, Tlaloc, Quetzalcoatl Sacrifice of a maid; of boy and girl
V Toxcatl (from April 23 to May 12) Tezcatlipoca, Huitzilopochtli, Tlacahuepan, Cuexcotzin Sacrifice of captives by extraction of the heart
VI Etzalcualiztli (from May 13 to June 1) Tláloc, Quetzalcoatl Sacrifice by drowning and extraction of the heart
VII Tecuilhuitontli (from June 2 to June 21) Huixtocihuatl, Xochipilli Sacrifice by extraction of the heart
VIII Hueytecuihutli (from June 22 to July 11) Xilonen, Quilaztli-Cihacóatl, Ehécatl, Chicomelcóatl Sacrifice by decapitation of a woman and extraction of her heart
IX Tlaxochimaco (from July 12 to July 31) Huitzilopochtli, Tezcatlipoca, Mictlantecuhtli Sacrifice by starvation in a cave or temple
X Xocotlhuetzin (from August 1 to August 20) Xiuhtecuhtli, Ixcozauhqui, Otontecuhtli, Chiconquiáhitl, Cuahtlaxayauh, Coyolintáhuatl, Chalmecacíhuatl Sacrifices to the fire gods by burning the victims
XI Ochpaniztli (from August 21 to September 9) Toci, Teteoinan, Chimelcóatl-Chalchiuhcíhuatl, Atlatonin, Atlauhaco, Chiconquiáuitl, Cintéotl Sacrifice of a decapitated young woman to Toci; she was skinned and a young man wore her skin; sacrifice of captives by hurling from a height and extraction of the heart
XII Teoleco (from September 10 to September 29) Xochiquétzal Sacrifices by fire; extraction of the heart
XIII Tepeihuitl (from September 30 to October 19) Tláloc-Napatecuhtli, Matlalcueye, Xochitécatl, Mayáhuel, Milnáhuatl, Napatecuhtli, Chicomecóatl, Xochiquétzal Sacrifices of children, two noble women, extraction of the heart and flaying; ritual cannibalism
XIV Quecholli (from October 20 to November 8) Mixcóatl-Tlamatzincatl, Coatlicue, Izquitécatl, Yoztlamiyáhual, Huitznahuas Sacrifice by bludgeoning, decapitation and extraction of the heart
XV Panquetzaliztli (from November 9 to November 28) Huitzilopochtli Massive sacrifices of captives and slaves by extraction of the heart
XVI Atemoztli (from November 29 to December 18) Tlaloques Sacrifices of children and slaves by decapitation
XVII Tititl (from December 19 to January 7) Tona-Cozcamiauh, Ilamatecuhtli, Yacatecuhtli, Huitzilncuátec Sacrifice of a woman by extraction of the heart and decapitation afterwards
XVIII Izcalli (from January 8 to January 27) Ixozauhqui-Xiuhtecuhtli, Cihuatontli, Nancotlaceuhqui Sacrifices of victims representing Xiuhtecuhtli and their women (each four years), and captives; hour: night; New Fire
Nemontemi (from January 28 to February 1) Five ominous days at the end of the year, no ritual, general fasting

They most likely sacrificed so many because of overcrowding, religious beliefs, and a need to enforce a societal hierarchy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I always mourn the turkeys.

Me too

Eh, I think they’re pretty tasty.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

DP

You do realize the various tribes fought each other and stole land from one another, right?

Multiple tribes claim ownership to the same land (even today).

Re: the alcoholism and poverty rates for Indians - Both are largely self-inflicted. The casinos provide steady income that allow many to simply not work. They get by on handouts from the tribe from casino revenue. Checking out of life (not working) fuels depression and alcoholism.

Anyone concerned about the sexual abuse, trafficking, and murders happening across Indian country? They have created a very dangerous subculture that makes it easy to get away with such things.

That’s a whole lot of victim blaming there. Disgusting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another attempt to ruin a holiday by shaming Americans.

Get your own holiday to cry over.

America does have a dark past. We should reflect on the massive human cost of building this country.

-Mayflower descendant

Every country on earth has a dark past. You should acknowledge those events but don’t dwell on them in the present especially after 100+ years

The impacts of the US government’s brutal violence and assimilation are still felt today. It’s a current day issue.