Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

If you accept payment via credit card, you've agreed that their agreements supersede yours

Absolutely not. If you have a binding agreement that clearly spells out the obligations of each party then the credit card company will stay out of the dispute -- as the terms of your private contract is binding. It is where there is no contract or the contract does not address the issue that the credit card company and its terms may come into play.

-a lawyer

Your credit card company goes by their merchant agreement in adjudicating a dispute and those clearly require refunds when services paid for are not provided

Not if in your contract you agreed to pay with no refunds or exceptions for Acts of God.

Amex's merchant agreement specifically prohibits those clauses

Source for that? As I recall from when I dealt with them, the only requirement was that refund policies be “fair” (which was not defined and thus could be considered ambiguous), clearly discolored and in compliance with applicable law.

Disclosed, not discolored

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

If you accept payment via credit card, you've agreed that their agreements supersede yours

Absolutely not. If you have a binding agreement that clearly spells out the obligations of each party then the credit card company will stay out of the dispute -- as the terms of your private contract is binding. It is where there is no contract or the contract does not address the issue that the credit card company and its terms may come into play.

-a lawyer

Your credit card company goes by their merchant agreement in adjudicating a dispute and those clearly require refunds when services paid for are not provided

Not if in your contract you agreed to pay with no refunds or exceptions for Acts of God.

Amex's merchant agreement specifically prohibits those clauses

Source for that? As I recall from when I dealt with them, the only requirement was that refund policies be “fair” (which was not defined and thus could be considered ambiguous), clearly discolored and in compliance with applicable law.

Anonymous wrote:Welcome to VRBO. They will do nothing to help you, OP. I was ghosted by an owner when I tried to cancel (within the terms of the contract) and VRBO admitted they were wrong but did absolutely nothing to help. The VRBO “guarantee” is worthless. They suggested that I challenge the charge on my credit card. They will not even provide you with a form to file a claim. I sent a letter and got back a polite FU letter from the VRBO legal department. It’s why I will never use VRBO again. They charge outrageous fees and do nothing at all in exchange. You might as well be renting on Craig’s List.

You don’t seem to understand what VRBO is, and expect it to act as a property manager in at least some respects, like managing rental payments and reservations. VRBO (and Airbnb) are never going to do that, in part because it would require becoming licensed as property managers in every state that requires it (which gets expensive), and in part because, by acting as property managers, they could become legally responsible for things like making sure all rental units are up to code, property owners don’t violate anti-discrimination laws, and all rental units have necessary business licenses and permits. That is not something VRBO is ever going to take on, so they make very sure to structure themselves solely as a matching service for owners and prospective renters, without taking on any responsibilities that could be construed as property management.

As a result, VRBO had limited options for remedying your situation. If a property owner violates their rules, they can ban the owner from using the site going forward but they otherwise can do very little to help you without risking violating the law.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

If you accept payment via credit card, you've agreed that their agreements supersede yours

Absolutely not. If you have a binding agreement that clearly spells out the obligations of each party then the credit card company will stay out of the dispute -- as the terms of your private contract is binding. It is where there is no contract or the contract does not address the issue that the credit card company and its terms may come into play.

-a lawyer

Your credit card company goes by their merchant agreement in adjudicating a dispute and those clearly require refunds when services paid for are not provided

Not if in your contract you agreed to pay with no refunds or exceptions for Acts of God.

Amex's merchant agreement specifically prohibits those clauses

Welcome to VRBO. They will do nothing to help you, OP. I was ghosted by an owner when I tried to cancel (within the terms of the contract) and VRBO admitted they were wrong but did absolutely nothing to help. The VRBO “guarantee” is worthless. They suggested that I challenge the charge on my credit card. They will not even provide you with a form to file a claim. I sent a letter and got back a polite FU letter from the VRBO legal department. It’s why I will never use VRBO again. They charge outrageous fees and do nothing at all in exchange. You might as well be renting on Craig’s List.

We owned a beach house in Hilton Head for 20 years before selling it at the beginning of 2021. We rented it out directly through VRBO (i.e. there was no intermediate management company). Over those 20 years, we had two hurricanes which directly impacted the island, but never significantly damaged our house or required evacuation of our renters). We did offer "hurricane insurance" which cost $150 and allowed for pro-rated refunds for days missed because of mandatory evacuations. Not many people paid for that, and we never had to pay out on it..

I can feel for both sides here. OP obviously doesn't want to have to pay for a house which the owner (most likely) cannot make available to them. The owner, however, may not have any money to refund back to OP. We have no idea what their financial situation is. Even if they may ultimately get some money back from insurance, they probably don't have it yet. And any cash they do have probably needs to go into rebuilding/repairing the house. I'm not sure what I would do if I were the owner.

During the spring of 2020 (at the beginning of COVID), we wrote to all of the people who had booked in with us for the season, and told them that the house was open and available, but if they didn't want to or couldn't come (because of where they were coming from), we would allow them to cancel their reservations (with a full refund), or they could reschedule. (To be clear, we normally required a 50% deposit with the remainder due 30 days prior to arrival. If you canceled before the balance was due, we would refund everything minus $50. Late cancellations would only be refunded if we could get a replacement renter).

No one cancelled or rescheduled on us, but it could have happened. We could have made through a few cancellations, but if the entire summer had cancelled, we could have lost the house to foreclosure. That could be the situation the owner of OP's rental is in.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In this circumstance, OP would be happy to still go on vacation. The weather in Florida is fine this week. Unfortunately the host cannot offer a habitable property. OP isn't canceling, the host is canceling. The host should have hurricane insurance that includes coverage for lost revenue. OP should get a refund.

This is different from 2020 where the properties were habitable but guests were unable or choosing not to travel.

What. Does. The. Contract. Say?

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. x1000. I'm glad to see there are at least two of us here not crazy.

It's a rental agreement. Presumably it says that the hosts will provide the rental property in exchange for payment. It sounds like the hosts can't honor their end.

Oh my, no. It’s an agreement, yes. What does the agreement say? What did the owner promise? What did OP promise? Who bears the risk of a hurricane striking Sanibel? That controls. “Presumably” does not matter.

Why hasn't OP come back to answer the simply question: has OP contacted the owner? What has the owner said?

Now I am starting to this OP is a troll, the one that likes to make up stories just to see how people respond.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just call your CC. They will handle it if you have a more premium card.

Amex is amazing at this and makes the platinum card worth the fee alone.

Maximum time a dispute can be raised One hundred and twenty (120) days from the date American Express Network processed the Transaction.

If OP used AmEx definitely call. They are very good at handling situations like this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

If you accept payment via credit card, you've agreed that their agreements supersede yours

Absolutely not. If you have a binding agreement that clearly spells out the obligations of each party then the credit card company will stay out of the dispute -- as the terms of your private contract is binding. It is where there is no contract or the contract does not address the issue that the credit card company and its terms may come into play.

-a lawyer

Your credit card company goes by their merchant agreement in adjudicating a dispute and those clearly require refunds when services paid for are not provided

Not if in your contract you agreed to pay with no refunds or exceptions for Acts of God.

Anonymous wrote:Just call your CC. They will handle it if you have a more premium card.

Amex is amazing at this and makes the platinum card worth the fee alone.

Maximum time a dispute can be raised One hundred and twenty (120) days from the date American Express Network processed the Transaction.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

I am a 17-year VRBO owner and this post is exactly right and it is also the reason that I have my pwn Rental Agreement that every VRBO tenant signs via DocuSign so that the exact terms of our respective obligations are clearly spelled out. In my rental agreement, I am contractually obliged to provide a fully habitable home otherwise I have to refund the rent.

lol dumb, why would you make your own rental agreement that puts the owner at full risk., its also against the terms of service for airbnb and vrbo so if something goes wrong you are going to have a mess

You are clueless. Both platforms allow owner-drafted rental agreements so long as they provide the traveler with more protection then the platform terms. Which is what I do because I want to attract renters who care about those issues.

Maybe this has been address, but for all those saying DISPUTE ON YOUR CREDIT CARD, isn't this likely far beyond the period to dispute?

For the cards I have, the dispute period is 60 days. Credit card firms have already paid the vendor, right? They are not going to spend the resources to get this $ back for you, right?

The good old days:
My family rented a big house on the beach in Nags Head, we arrived on a Saturday and unpacked. Due to a hurricane coming on Sunday we had to pack everything up and evacuated to a hotel two or three hours inland. On Wednesday we came back because the house had zero damage, although we saw another house that had literally fallen into the ocean off of stilts.

The rental company paid our hotel bill which involved three rooms for our large family group. We didn't even have to ask, they offered.

I realize this is mostly just a thread for lawyers and lawyer wannabes but I thought a bit of nostalgia was in order.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is from the article OP linked above in first post.

"However, should a host not cancel first, the situation becomes more complex, particularly with Airbnb, given its cancellation policy specifically excludes the annual storm season in Florida. Airbnb says that it offers refunds for “events beyond one’s control”, including some extreme weather events and natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, but despite this, the company deems tropical hurricanes and storms in the state between June and November to be “foreseeable” and its cancellation policy does not result in refunds under those circumstances.

Meanwhile, a Vrbo spokeswoman told The New York Times that “natural disasters, such as hurricanes or wildfires, do not override the cancellation policy set by the host and agreed to by the guest when they book”.

BUT this isn't a cancellation due to a hurricane. It is a cancellation because the condo is not habitable/destroyed/island is not available to non-owners. Definitely dispute with the credit card, airbnb are going to lose.

DP. You don’t know that the unit is uninhabitable, and you don’t know that it won’t be available to non-visitors next week. But all that aside, all of those issue absolutely do arise out of a hurricane and so very likely does fall within the scope of this policy.

So you’re saying if the house wasn’t inhabitable for other reasons, then the renter would be entitled to a refund? That makes no sense.

Sure it makes sense if hurricanes are specifically excluded, which it sounds like they are.

What's the time limit on this? Some VRBO and AirBnb reservations don't allow for cancelations after 24-36 hours. If a house was washed away in this hurricane and someone booked for next June, does the owner still keep the money if there is literally no house available? What if the house was damaged but the owner just can't be bothered to make needed repairs for 6 months because they get to keep all the rental fees anyways? That can't be right. The owner has an obligation to live up to their end of an agreement and provide a rental unit. It's not a blank check to cite a hurricane that happened in the past and keep the money.

I can’t speak to your hypothetical scenario in which someone booked a VRBO nine months in advance and there was a hurricane in the interim, but right now it seems like not all Ian cancellations are being refunded.

Let’s say 2 months from now then. Would it make a difference if the rental period was in the last week of November (technically hurricane season) or the first week of December? I’m sure there a number of folks who booked for the holidays who obviously would not have purchased hurricane insurance.

I think a PP was correct in saying that the issue will primarily affect people who fall in the gap after the storm and before the homeowners have filed their insurance claims. I have one friend that has already been contacted for their Thanksgiving Sanibel rental and told the owner is cancelling.