Anonymous wrote:What had always stopped me in my tracks is the number of residents who are fighting tooth and nail against the issue being addressed. That’s the case in the Palisades where they’d rather mock and discredit than invite an objective study and produce stats that could give them a fighting chance. In Brussels 400 households brought a civil suit over this. I bet you won’t find 20 in the Palisades.

Same for the Spring Valley. It was the neighbors affected by that horror that are the biggest obstacles to a solution and it being a well known issue. True story: we know someone who tested soil from a “clean” house there in 2 labs just to have peace of mind at closing. It turned up high arsenic and other things that gvt measured; but that wasn’t the worst. The worst were things they don’t measure but must know are there; heavy metals like Thalium, the most toxic heavy metal known to man and not in small concentrations. They close entire industrial sites over this but people happily carry on and gaslight in DC.

What is it? Why?

Anonymous wrote:Surprised nobody posted the DOT noise maps, see here:

https://data.bts.gov/stories/s/National-Transportation-Noise-Map/ri89-bhxh

Mass Ave seems to be the dividing line for noticing things.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Surprised nobody posted the DOT noise maps, see here:

https://data.bts.gov/stories/s/National-Transportation-Noise-Map/ri89-bhxh

Mass Ave seems to be the dividing line for noticing things.

That’s illuminating! Aligns with the no fly zone over VPs residence

There is a no fly zone over the WH I am sure, but yet planes fly over the National Mall. There must be a no-fly zone of the CIA, but loads of planes fly in lines over Mclean close to CIA. You are just lucky and they don't send planes your way, but who says this will never change? Clearly presence of high security objects isn't an obstacle for the flights to go nearby.

Here is the prohibited airpace map (for commercial flights): https://www.flyreagan.com/about-airport/aircraft-noise-information/dca-reagan-national-aircraft-procedures

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Anonymous wrote:People who are bothered by plane noise seriously bother me. Especially being that far out.

I walk/run by DCA several days a week - it's about 1.5 mile from my home on paths, and considerably shorter if you draw a direct line. It's white noise. And you physically FEEL takeoff and landing sometimes.

Not a big deal, but a tradeoff for living in the neighborhood we choose to live in.

If you're that abnormally sensitive, move elsewhere and don't complain about not having an airport you can get to easily.

This PP seems a bit too defensive. I actually work for a major airline, and I still hate the sound of airplane noise.

In about 15 years, we can expect quieter aircraft, as Boeing and Airbus have those in the plans. (Granted, electric airplanes are less likely.)

You are right. This is the first of these threads that took off; probably because the adverse effects and the terribleness of the situation are wholly undeniable!
Otherwise they just try to shame people into not dragging their real estate $ down by mocking it and others (calling them crazy, abnormally sensitive) but then can’t stop complaining on the private listserv.

Real estate $ won’t save anyone from a near certain disease. Estimate is 70% increase in cardiovascular alone. The only positive from a recent study was that
people go deaf sooner and then the effects lessen a bit. It’s the kids that will have the worst effects later in life from the ultrafines pushed by jets into lungs, brain etc. (not an exaggeration, directly from UWA, German, NJ studies).

Reminds me of Spring Valley people doing the same. We figured ok, but we’ll test the “cleaned” soil. I could have killed people with a pool me of the heavy metals from a spoonful of that yard.

No, thanks

Planes flying a few thousand feet over your head are not meaningfully contaminating the air in your neighborhood. The exhaust/fumes/etc. would be dispersed by the wind and spread out into the atmosphere before they make it down to the ground.

True, but it's still noisy.. We have high flying planes, but you can hear them very well, and it's not like a hum of a highway, it's a lot more annoying and unpleasant to human ear and brain. I am not worried about pollution, but can use less airline noise. I would be fine with a plane flying overhead ever 10 min and won't even notice it. But during the hours when most traffic is directed along specific lines (there is more than one) in our auditory range, there is no relief, because planes fly every 45 sec on average. Noise lingers, one plane leaves auditory range when the other one enters. It's why I think it's unfair to have these beelines in the sky unless you make more of them, so that traffic is dispersed and everyone gets a little, but nobody gets most of it for hours on end every day.

People, they are. It doesn’t disperse, please read the most recent science. It gets pushed downwards by jets into your major organs. Not to be too graphic, but you’re better off standing in the middle of the Beltway.

I have different air quality monitors. I have a device that measures fine and ultrafine particles, we have very very low levels, we are also in a heavily wooded area, which maybe helps with this. Or maybe it's because the planes are taking off and not exactly right over our heads? Like I said, they don't need to be right over your house to be audible and annoying, they fly over other homes but we hear them and see them, they fly in a line, sometimes you can see 2 planes one after another. This has to stop, no more highways in the sky.

Your monitor can’t measure ultra fines. You are measuring PM2.5 at best (fine) and PM10 (coarse). Ultra fine are PM 0.1

If the green canopy is eating up fine particles why can't it eat up ultrafine? You want to get rid of carbon, it's what the trees and plants do. Anyway, not sure why you are arguing with me, I am very much against these highways in the sky for many reasons. I am also not a rural type of person and always lived near the cities, so exposed to pollution from highways, cars, and lots of cell towers. If I want clean living I have to move far away from any major metro area. I don't think it's an option for many people.

Truly not trying to argue. Just to spread the knowledge because it’s really much different just a bit outside the flight corridor. You are correct about the noise, but the health effects are under appreciated.

Health effects of everything are underappreciated. We are constantly exposed to radiation from wireless tech, cell towers, home devices, etc. We are eating poor quality modified foods that contain harmful substances, most of the modern products we have around us are hazardous to our health. Airline pollution just adds to it. But highway pollution had been around forever and is still probably a lot worse than pollution from the distant airplanes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Surprised nobody posted the DOT noise maps, see here:

https://data.bts.gov/stories/s/National-Transportation-Noise-Map/ri89-bhxh

Mass Ave seems to be the dividing line for noticing things.

That’s illuminating! Aligns with the no fly zone over VPs residence

There is a no fly zone over the WH I am sure, but yet planes fly over the National Mall. There must be a no-fly zone of the CIA, but loads of planes fly in lines over Mclean close to CIA. You are just lucky and they don't send planes your way, but who says this will never change? Clearly presence of high security objects isn't an obstacle for the flights to go nearby.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:People who are bothered by plane noise seriously bother me. Especially being that far out.

I walk/run by DCA several days a week - it's about 1.5 mile from my home on paths, and considerably shorter if you draw a direct line. It's white noise. And you physically FEEL takeoff and landing sometimes.

Not a big deal, but a tradeoff for living in the neighborhood we choose to live in.

If you're that abnormally sensitive, move elsewhere and don't complain about not having an airport you can get to easily.

This PP seems a bit too defensive. I actually work for a major airline, and I still hate the sound of airplane noise.

In about 15 years, we can expect quieter aircraft, as Boeing and Airbus have those in the plans. (Granted, electric airplanes are less likely.)

You are right. This is the first of these threads that took off; probably because the adverse effects and the terribleness of the situation are wholly undeniable!
Otherwise they just try to shame people into not dragging their real estate $ down by mocking it and others (calling them crazy, abnormally sensitive) but then can’t stop complaining on the private listserv.

Real estate $ won’t save anyone from a near certain disease. Estimate is 70% increase in cardiovascular alone. The only positive from a recent study was that
people go deaf sooner and then the effects lessen a bit. It’s the kids that will have the worst effects later in life from the ultrafines pushed by jets into lungs, brain etc. (not an exaggeration, directly from UWA, German, NJ studies).

Reminds me of Spring Valley people doing the same. We figured ok, but we’ll test the “cleaned” soil. I could have killed people with a pool me of the heavy metals from a spoonful of that yard.

No, thanks

Planes flying a few thousand feet over your head are not meaningfully contaminating the air in your neighborhood. The exhaust/fumes/etc. would be dispersed by the wind and spread out into the atmosphere before they make it down to the ground.

True, but it's still noisy.. We have high flying planes, but you can hear them very well, and it's not like a hum of a highway, it's a lot more annoying and unpleasant to human ear and brain. I am not worried about pollution, but can use less airline noise. I would be fine with a plane flying overhead ever 10 min and won't even notice it. But during the hours when most traffic is directed along specific lines (there is more than one) in our auditory range, there is no relief, because planes fly every 45 sec on average. Noise lingers, one plane leaves auditory range when the other one enters. It's why I think it's unfair to have these beelines in the sky unless you make more of them, so that traffic is dispersed and everyone gets a little, but nobody gets most of it for hours on end every day.

People, they are. It doesn’t disperse, please read the most recent science. It gets pushed downwards by jets into your major organs. Not to be too graphic, but you’re better off standing in the middle of the Beltway.

I have different air quality monitors. I have a device that measures fine and ultrafine particles, we have very very low levels, we are also in a heavily wooded area, which maybe helps with this. Or maybe it's because the planes are taking off and not exactly right over our heads? Like I said, they don't need to be right over your house to be audible and annoying, they fly over other homes but we hear them and see them, they fly in a line, sometimes you can see 2 planes one after another. This has to stop, no more highways in the sky.

Your monitor can’t measure ultra fines. You are measuring PM2.5 at best (fine) and PM10 (coarse). Ultra fine are PM 0.1

If the green canopy is eating up fine particles why can't it eat up ultrafine? You want to get rid of carbon, it's what the trees and plants do. Anyway, not sure why you are arguing with me, I am very much against these highways in the sky for many reasons. I am also not a rural type of person and always lived near the cities, so exposed to pollution from highways, cars, and lots of cell towers. If I want clean living I have to move far away from any major metro area. I don't think it's an option for many people.

Truly not trying to argue. Just to spread the knowledge because it’s really much different just a bit outside the flight corridor. You are correct about the noise, but the health effects are under appreciated.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Surprised nobody posted the DOT noise maps, see here:

https://data.bts.gov/stories/s/National-Transportation-Noise-Map/ri89-bhxh

Mass Ave seems to be the dividing line for noticing things.

That’s illuminating! Aligns with the no fly zone over VPs residence

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who are bothered by plane noise seriously bother me. Especially being that far out.

I walk/run by DCA several days a week - it's about 1.5 mile from my home on paths, and considerably shorter if you draw a direct line. It's white noise. And you physically FEEL takeoff and landing sometimes.

Not a big deal, but a tradeoff for living in the neighborhood we choose to live in.

If you're that abnormally sensitive, move elsewhere and don't complain about not having an airport you can get to easily.

This PP seems a bit too defensive. I actually work for a major airline, and I still hate the sound of airplane noise.

In about 15 years, we can expect quieter aircraft, as Boeing and Airbus have those in the plans. (Granted, electric airplanes are less likely.)

You are right. This is the first of these threads that took off; probably because the adverse effects and the terribleness of the situation are wholly undeniable!
Otherwise they just try to shame people into not dragging their real estate $ down by mocking it and others (calling them crazy, abnormally sensitive) but then can’t stop complaining on the private listserv.

Real estate $ won’t save anyone from a near certain disease. Estimate is 70% increase in cardiovascular alone. The only positive from a recent study was that
people go deaf sooner and then the effects lessen a bit. It’s the kids that will have the worst effects later in life from the ultrafines pushed by jets into lungs, brain etc. (not an exaggeration, directly from UWA, German, NJ studies).

Reminds me of Spring Valley people doing the same. We figured ok, but we’ll test the “cleaned” soil. I could have killed people with a pool me of the heavy metals from a spoonful of that yard.

No, thanks

Planes flying a few thousand feet over your head are not meaningfully contaminating the air in your neighborhood. The exhaust/fumes/etc. would be dispersed by the wind and spread out into the atmosphere before they make it down to the ground.

True, but it's still noisy.. We have high flying planes, but you can hear them very well, and it's not like a hum of a highway, it's a lot more annoying and unpleasant to human ear and brain. I am not worried about pollution, but can use less airline noise. I would be fine with a plane flying overhead ever 10 min and won't even notice it. But during the hours when most traffic is directed along specific lines (there is more than one) in our auditory range, there is no relief, because planes fly every 45 sec on average. Noise lingers, one plane leaves auditory range when the other one enters. It's why I think it's unfair to have these beelines in the sky unless you make more of them, so that traffic is dispersed and everyone gets a little, but nobody gets most of it for hours on end every day.

People, they are. It doesn’t disperse, please read the most recent science. It gets pushed downwards by jets into your major organs. Not to be too graphic, but you’re better off standing in the middle of the Beltway.

I have different air quality monitors. I have a device that measures fine and ultrafine particles, we have very very low levels, we are also in a heavily wooded area, which maybe helps with this. Or maybe it's because the planes are taking off and not exactly right over our heads? Like I said, they don't need to be right over your house to be audible and annoying, they fly over other homes but we hear them and see them, they fly in a line, sometimes you can see 2 planes one after another. This has to stop, no more highways in the sky.

Your monitor can’t measure ultra fines. You are measuring PM2.5 at best (fine) and PM10 (coarse). Ultra fine are PM 0.1

If the green canopy is eating up fine particles why can't it eat up ultrafine? You want to get rid of carbon, it's what the trees and plants do. Anyway, not sure why you are arguing with me, I am very much against these highways in the sky for many reasons. I am also not a rural type of person and always lived near the cities, so exposed to pollution from highways, cars, and lots of cell towers. If I want clean living I have to move far away from any major metro area. I don't think it's an option for many people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who are bothered by plane noise seriously bother me. Especially being that far out.

I walk/run by DCA several days a week - it's about 1.5 mile from my home on paths, and considerably shorter if you draw a direct line. It's white noise. And you physically FEEL takeoff and landing sometimes.

Not a big deal, but a tradeoff for living in the neighborhood we choose to live in.

If you're that abnormally sensitive, move elsewhere and don't complain about not having an airport you can get to easily.

This PP seems a bit too defensive. I actually work for a major airline, and I still hate the sound of airplane noise.

In about 15 years, we can expect quieter aircraft, as Boeing and Airbus have those in the plans. (Granted, electric airplanes are less likely.)

You are right. This is the first of these threads that took off; probably because the adverse effects and the terribleness of the situation are wholly undeniable!
Otherwise they just try to shame people into not dragging their real estate $ down by mocking it and others (calling them crazy, abnormally sensitive) but then can’t stop complaining on the private listserv.

Real estate $ won’t save anyone from a near certain disease. Estimate is 70% increase in cardiovascular alone. The only positive from a recent study was that
people go deaf sooner and then the effects lessen a bit. It’s the kids that will have the worst effects later in life from the ultrafines pushed by jets into lungs, brain etc. (not an exaggeration, directly from UWA, German, NJ studies).

Reminds me of Spring Valley people doing the same. We figured ok, but we’ll test the “cleaned” soil. I could have killed people with a pool me of the heavy metals from a spoonful of that yard.

No, thanks

Planes flying a few thousand feet over your head are not meaningfully contaminating the air in your neighborhood. The exhaust/fumes/etc. would be dispersed by the wind and spread out into the atmosphere before they make it down to the ground.

True, but it's still noisy.. We have high flying planes, but you can hear them very well, and it's not like a hum of a highway, it's a lot more annoying and unpleasant to human ear and brain. I am not worried about pollution, but can use less airline noise. I would be fine with a plane flying overhead ever 10 min and won't even notice it. But during the hours when most traffic is directed along specific lines (there is more than one) in our auditory range, there is no relief, because planes fly every 45 sec on average. Noise lingers, one plane leaves auditory range when the other one enters. It's why I think it's unfair to have these beelines in the sky unless you make more of them, so that traffic is dispersed and everyone gets a little, but nobody gets most of it for hours on end every day.

People, they are. It doesn’t disperse, please read the most recent science. It gets pushed downwards by jets into your major organs. Not to be too graphic, but you’re better off standing in the middle of the Beltway.

I have different air quality monitors. I have a device that measures fine and ultrafine particles, we have very very low levels, we are also in a heavily wooded area, which maybe helps with this. Or maybe it's because the planes are taking off and not exactly right over our heads? Like I said, they don't need to be right over your house to be audible and annoying, they fly over other homes but we hear them and see them, they fly in a line, sometimes you can see 2 planes one after another. This has to stop, no more highways in the sky.

Your monitor can’t measure ultra fines. You are measuring PM2.5 at best (fine) and PM10 (coarse). Ultra fine are PM 0.1

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ultrafine particles are less than 100 nanometers in diameter — one one-thousandth the width of a human hair — and their impact on health is only beginning to be studied. Ultrafines aren’t specifically regulated by any state or federal air quality standards.

A higher proportion of the ultrafine particles (UFPs) in jet emissions are so small they can penetrate the central nervous system when inhaled, the report said.

Communities under flight paths, like SeaTac, Des Moines, Highline, Angle Lake, Beacon Hill and Rainier Valley, are exposed to those “ultra-ultrafines” when planes take off and land, researchers found.

The UW study adds to a growing international body of research on the particles, including some preliminary reports showing correlations between exposure to ultrafines and higher incidences of some kinds of cancer, as well as lung diseases that cause trouble breathing and deep, throaty coughs.

“Strong and consistent evidence from animal studies indicates that long-term exposure to UFPs is related to negative effects on the brain, nervous and respiratory system,” the state Department of Health concluded in a separate review of research on ultrafine particles released this month, funded by the Port of Seattle.

Generally, Austin said, ultrafine particles tend to agglomerate as they travel through the air — they stick together and become larger particles, which aren’t able to pass from the airways into the bloodstream. That’s typically what happens near busy roads.

But the super-small particles emitted by airplanes are forced directly downward by air currents and wing vortexes so rapidly that they haven’t agglomerated by the time they reach the ground, her team found.

Worth noting that the UW study (a) looked primarily at communities directly under the Sea Tac flight path, (b) focused primarily on locations where airplanes were at 750m (~2,500 feet) or lower altitude, and (c) involved a far busier airport than DCA.

Palisades is not directly under the DCA flight path, as the path follows the river. There is of course variance -- some flights go directly over Palisades, some go over McLean, some go straight over the river. The Sea Tac flight path has less variance as the flights are generally on a straight path to/from the runway (unlike the weaving path along the Potomac on the river approach/departure from DCA). If you've ever lived in Seattle, this is easy to observe.

Flights taking off from DCA are typically at a higher elevation when they pass Palisades. From Flightradar24, the typical elevation seems to be 3,000-3,500 feet. The extra altitude presumably makes a difference.

Sea Tac has ~50% more flights per day than DCA (and with bigger aircraft, which presumably pollute more).

Be careful in extrapolating.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because it’s worsened significantly and the health studies came out; plus new generations are not as keen on things that could kill them

It worsened significantly in 2015 and prices kept going up. There was no meaningful change in noise since then except the first months of the pandemic when planes were just not flying.

What happened in 2015 and why? Why would they make it worse? Why not go back to previous flight patterns or try to improve the situation instead of worsening it?

Because nobody cares about noise in a handful of neighborhoods. They care about safety, short flight times, and fuel economy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who are bothered by plane noise seriously bother me. Especially being that far out.

I walk/run by DCA several days a week - it's about 1.5 mile from my home on paths, and considerably shorter if you draw a direct line. It's white noise. And you physically FEEL takeoff and landing sometimes.

Not a big deal, but a tradeoff for living in the neighborhood we choose to live in.

If you're that abnormally sensitive, move elsewhere and don't complain about not having an airport you can get to easily.

This PP seems a bit too defensive. I actually work for a major airline, and I still hate the sound of airplane noise.

In about 15 years, we can expect quieter aircraft, as Boeing and Airbus have those in the plans. (Granted, electric airplanes are less likely.)

You are right. This is the first of these threads that took off; probably because the adverse effects and the terribleness of the situation are wholly undeniable!
Otherwise they just try to shame people into not dragging their real estate $ down by mocking it and others (calling them crazy, abnormally sensitive) but then can’t stop complaining on the private listserv.

Real estate $ won’t save anyone from a near certain disease. Estimate is 70% increase in cardiovascular alone. The only positive from a recent study was that
people go deaf sooner and then the effects lessen a bit. It’s the kids that will have the worst effects later in life from the ultrafines pushed by jets into lungs, brain etc. (not an exaggeration, directly from UWA, German, NJ studies).

Reminds me of Spring Valley people doing the same. We figured ok, but we’ll test the “cleaned” soil. I could have killed people with a pool me of the heavy metals from a spoonful of that yard.

No, thanks

Planes flying a few thousand feet over your head are not meaningfully contaminating the air in your neighborhood. The exhaust/fumes/etc. would be dispersed by the wind and spread out into the atmosphere before they make it down to the ground.

True, but it's still noisy.. We have high flying planes, but you can hear them very well, and it's not like a hum of a highway, it's a lot more annoying and unpleasant to human ear and brain. I am not worried about pollution, but can use less airline noise. I would be fine with a plane flying overhead ever 10 min and won't even notice it. But during the hours when most traffic is directed along specific lines (there is more than one) in our auditory range, there is no relief, because planes fly every 45 sec on average. Noise lingers, one plane leaves auditory range when the other one enters. It's why I think it's unfair to have these beelines in the sky unless you make more of them, so that traffic is dispersed and everyone gets a little, but nobody gets most of it for hours on end every day.

People, they are. It doesn’t disperse, please read the most recent science. It gets pushed downwards by jets into your major organs. Not to be too graphic, but you’re better off standing in the middle of the Beltway.

I have different air quality monitors. I have a device that measures fine and ultrafine particles, we have very very low levels, we are also in a heavily wooded area, which maybe helps with this. Or maybe it's because the planes are taking off and not exactly right over our heads? Like I said, they don't need to be right over your house to be audible and annoying, they fly over other homes but we hear them and see them, they fly in a line, sometimes you can see 2 planes one after another. This has to stop, no more highways in the sky.