Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 09:26     Subject: Re:Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Judaism is not a race, it is an ethnicity that does, for some, incorporate a blood lineage. But, there are others that practice Judaism, who are not genetically linked to these ethnic groups- and Jews can be just about any race. However, the Jews in Europe were murdered as they were deemed to be an inferior race by the Nazis, so it was about Hitler's misconception of race, and it was about his determination to create a master race. So it was racial.


I'm bumping this for the poster who said they grew up in the South and seems to genuinely want to understand the debate, because this is the best description I've seen in the entire thread.

With that said, this is a nuanced argument. It requires a pretty specific understanding of Hitler's motivations as well as the degree to which "race" has been understood/deployed across different periods of time.

Jews are not a race by the current, North American, definition of race. They were a race by Hitlers understanding and rhetoric. To understand that, you need to understand that the meaning of the word race has shifted across time and geography, and remains a social construct.

I'm not sure I'm ready to come down on Goldberg too hard for not having that nuanced understanding.
Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 09:26     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.


A master Aryan race with blonde hair and certain features which were opposite of traditional Jewish features.

Hitler wasn’t religious. The holocaust wasn’t a religious crusade.

Much like modern times, an evil person thirsty for power manipulated the masses by othering an easily identifiable minority group.


Again seriously asking…aside from Hitler’s goal, why are the Jewish features considered not white? Or rather is there something wrong with those features being put in the same box with white people? Do Jews not want to be in the same box as white people? I seriously don’t know and I have asked these questions before on DCUM and got shut down. I have googled a lot of this and gave up because it was indeed a rabbit hole that I couldn’t commit to.

I mean clearly most white people think it’s great to be white, and in most cases it it, and they (white people) absolutely, positively, would never ever want to be anything but white. I’m black, but would never, ever want to be white, but if I could PASS for white, to get the privilege that being white sometimes hands you….hmmm maybe.

So again, because I don’t personally know many people that have identified themselves to me as Jewish, I don’t really clearly identify Jewish features. I mean see Jewish celebrities on TV and have heard people talk about “Jew fro” but that’s it. I know I must sound terribly ignorant on this, but I also don’t think this mindset would be out of the ordinary for African Americans educated in the south in 70’s about Jewish people.


Pp, I’m not jewish but from what I learned, they were basically ostracized because they had a different culture. They are a minority, have different cultural norms, that are probably noticeable like in food, religious practices( friday-saturday observance of sabbath) and most likely a very tight knit community because of these things that bind them together, A lot of them are also immigrants that emphasizes the difference in culture. I’m not sure how much they mingled with other different cultures at that time, I’m sure a lot did but but my understanding is that people were much more unwelcoming to immigrants in the old times. I’m guessing they were an easy target for hitler to unite a lot of people through their hidden racism.


The majority of Jews in Austria and Germany were not immigrants as you claim. Many considered themselves German or Austrian before being Jewish and were highly assimilated into german Society, owning stores, banks, manufacturing as well as in the medical field, law, science (Albert Einstein) and education. Many german jews fought for Germany in WW1. While many emigrated after 1933, many did not
believe that they would be persecuted because they were german. They lost their jobs and ability to hold their jobs in german society and then were shipped off either to concentration camps or the ghettos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Germany

Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 09:11     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
The Talmud is quite the read.
Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 09:10     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.


A master Aryan race with blonde hair and certain features which were opposite of traditional Jewish features.

Hitler wasn’t religious. The holocaust wasn’t a religious crusade.

Much like modern times, an evil person thirsty for power manipulated the masses by othering an easily identifiable minority group.


Again seriously asking…aside from Hitler’s goal, why are the Jewish features considered not white? Or rather is there something wrong with those features being put in the same box with white people? Do Jews not want to be in the same box as white people? I seriously don’t know and I have asked these questions before on DCUM and got shut down. I have googled a lot of this and gave up because it was indeed a rabbit hole that I couldn’t commit to.

I mean clearly most white people think it’s great to be white, and in most cases it it, and they (white people) absolutely, positively, would never ever want to be anything but white. I’m black, but would never, ever want to be white, but if I could PASS for white, to get the privilege that being white sometimes hands you….hmmm maybe.

So again, because I don’t personally know many people that have identified themselves to me as Jewish, I don’t really clearly identify Jewish features. I mean see Jewish celebrities on TV and have heard people talk about “Jew fro” but that’s it. I know I must sound terribly ignorant on this, but I also don’t think this mindset would be out of the ordinary for African Americans educated in the south in 70’s about Jewish people.


Pp, I’m not jewish but from what I learned, they were basically ostracized because they had a different culture. They are a minority, have different cultural norms, that are probably noticeable like in food, religious practices( friday-saturday observance of sabbath) and most likely a very tight knit community because of these things that bind them together, A lot of them are also immigrants that emphasizes the difference in culture. I’m not sure how much they mingled with other different cultures at that time, I’m sure a lot did but but my understanding is that people were much more unwelcoming to immigrants in the old times. I’m guessing they were an easy target for hitler to unite a lot of people through their hidden racism.


No one took core liberal arts classes freshman year of college in The Great Religions?
It was a big deal if your family or sect believed in Jesus or not. That was the bifurcation and fight for a long time when Judaism branched into Christianity. Of course paganism /atheists always existed and Muslim grew into billions in the Mideast and Asia.
European Jewry went out of their way to stay insular and even developed Hasidism 100s of years later in the Industrial Age to further stay isolated and not assimilate into the general population. And of course these were volatile times, polands borders changed constantly with invasions from all directions, particularly from Russia, Germany, etc.
the religion itself places great burdens on being the chosen ones, doing mitzvahs, and keeping to itself. This was before the 1930s.
Yes they would take the banking jobs on Sundays and Christianity had some kid of rule about not fixating or working with money handling or false gods / trinkets.

What’s really interesting is that both religions are currently waiting for Gods son to come; Christianity is waiting for Jesus to return, and Judaism is waiting for the first coming.
Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 09:07     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Speaking as an Africa Jew (gasp!), this is the most ridiculous example of victim playing by Ashkenazis in recent memory. Ashkenazis claim whiteness at every turn—silencing and excluding and rendering invisible Jews of color like me—and then are offended when the same whiteness is used to deny their claims of racial victimization. Can’t have it both ways. If all Jews are “white” then the Holocaust was white-on-white violence.
Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 09:02     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Jewish is a religion, race, and ethnicity.

Whoopi was a fool to go down this rabbit hole


I agree that Whoopi made a mistake and was really foolish in making that statement. But I an glad that it opened up a conversation about holocaust which is really needed. I did not know enough about holocaust 20 yrs ago, but I keep hearing the word. Googled it and was horrified by what I learned, but was also confused about the white vs. white until I learned about your statement. Chances are, a lot of people do not really know this and how and why it happened. This mistake has started a conversation, and I really hope that people are lioking up why these things happened so we can prevent it from happening again.


I thought everyone had to read Anne Frank in upper elementary school or something. Or The Chosen in high school. Public school. We certainly did, in the Midwest city I was in. Only had a couple Jewish friends from my dance troupe plus the once for lost along Lake shore drive on a Saturday and no conservative Jew would talk to me about how to get back to the freeway!
Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 09:00     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Jewish is a religion, race, and ethnicity.

Whoopi was a fool to go down this rabbit hole


It’s ok folks .

The UMC non Jewish liberal activists got her cancelled. All is well in the world. Score one for the career protesters making a difference in the world.
Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 08:59     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.


A master Aryan race with blonde hair and certain features which were opposite of traditional Jewish features.

Hitler wasn’t religious. The holocaust wasn’t a religious crusade.

Much like modern times, an evil person thirsty for power manipulated the masses by othering an easily identifiable minority group.


Again seriously asking…aside from Hitler’s goal, why are the Jewish features considered not white? Or rather is there something wrong with those features being put in the same box with white people? Do Jews not want to be in the same box as white people? I seriously don’t know and I have asked these questions before on DCUM and got shut down. I have googled a lot of this and gave up because it was indeed a rabbit hole that I couldn’t commit to.

I mean clearly most white people think it’s great to be white, and in most cases it it, and they (white people) absolutely, positively, would never ever want to be anything but white. I’m black, but would never, ever want to be white, but if I could PASS for white, to get the privilege that being white sometimes hands you….hmmm maybe.

So again, because I don’t personally know many people that have identified themselves to me as Jewish, I don’t really clearly identify Jewish features. I mean see Jewish celebrities on TV and have heard people talk about “Jew fro” but that’s it. I know I must sound terribly ignorant on this, but I also don’t think this mindset would be out of the ordinary for African Americans educated in the south in 70’s about Jewish people.


Pp, I’m not jewish but from what I learned, they were basically ostracized because they had a different culture. They are a minority, have different cultural norms, that are probably noticeable like in food, religious practices( friday-saturday observance of sabbath) and most likely a very tight knit community because of these things that bind them together, A lot of them are also immigrants that emphasizes the difference in culture. I’m not sure how much they mingled with other different cultures at that time, I’m sure a lot did but but my understanding is that people were much more unwelcoming to immigrants in the old times. I’m guessing they were an easy target for hitler to unite a lot of people through their hidden racism.

I tip my hat to them for being able to maintain their uniqueness through 1000s of years of horrible persecution and pogroms. Many would have just given up but Jewish people have heroically endured through it all. There’s much to respect.
Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 08:50     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.


A master Aryan race with blonde hair and certain features which were opposite of traditional Jewish features.

Hitler wasn’t religious. The holocaust wasn’t a religious crusade.

Much like modern times, an evil person thirsty for power manipulated the masses by othering an easily identifiable minority group.


Again seriously asking…aside from Hitler’s goal, why are the Jewish features considered not white? Or rather is there something wrong with those features being put in the same box with white people? Do Jews not want to be in the same box as white people? I seriously don’t know and I have asked these questions before on DCUM and got shut down. I have googled a lot of this and gave up because it was indeed a rabbit hole that I couldn’t commit to.

I mean clearly most white people think it’s great to be white, and in most cases it it, and they (white people) absolutely, positively, would never ever want to be anything but white. I’m black, but would never, ever want to be white, but if I could PASS for white, to get the privilege that being white sometimes hands you….hmmm maybe.

So again, because I don’t personally know many people that have identified themselves to me as Jewish, I don’t really clearly identify Jewish features. I mean see Jewish celebrities on TV and have heard people talk about “Jew fro” but that’s it. I know I must sound terribly ignorant on this, but I also don’t think this mindset would be out of the ordinary for African Americans educated in the south in 70’s about Jewish people.


Pp, I’m not jewish but from what I learned, they were basically ostracized because they had a different culture. They are a minority, have different cultural norms, that are probably noticeable like in food, religious practices( friday-saturday observance of sabbath) and most likely a very tight knit community because of these things that bind them together, A lot of them are also immigrants that emphasizes the difference in culture. I’m not sure how much they mingled with other different cultures at that time, I’m sure a lot did but but my understanding is that people were much more unwelcoming to immigrants in the old times. I’m guessing they were an easy target for hitler to unite a lot of people through their hidden racism.
Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 08:42     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Jewish is a religion, race, and ethnicity.

Whoopi was a fool to go down this rabbit hole


I agree that Whoopi made a mistake and was really foolish in making that statement. But I an glad that it opened up a conversation about holocaust which is really needed. I did not know enough about holocaust 20 yrs ago, but I keep hearing the word. Googled it and was horrified by what I learned, but was also confused about the white vs. white until I learned about your statement. Chances are, a lot of people do not really know this and how and why it happened. This mistake has started a conversation, and I really hope that people are lioking up why these things happened so we can prevent it from happening again.
Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 08:39     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.


A master Aryan race with blonde hair and certain features which were opposite of traditional Jewish features.

Hitler wasn’t religious. The holocaust wasn’t a religious crusade.

Much like modern times, an evil person thirsty for power manipulated the masses by othering an easily identifiable minority group.


Again seriously asking…aside from Hitler’s goal, why are the Jewish features considered not white? Or rather is there something wrong with those features being put in the same box with white people? Do Jews not want to be in the same box as white people? I seriously don’t know and I have asked these questions before on DCUM and got shut down. I have googled a lot of this and gave up because it was indeed a rabbit hole that I couldn’t commit to.

I mean clearly most white people think it’s great to be white, and in most cases it it, and they (white people) absolutely, positively, would never ever want to be anything but white. I’m black, but would never, ever want to be white, but if I could PASS for white, to get the privilege that being white sometimes hands you….hmmm maybe.

So again, because I don’t personally know many people that have identified themselves to me as Jewish, I don’t really clearly identify Jewish features. I mean see Jewish celebrities on TV and have heard people talk about “Jew fro” but that’s it. I know I must sound terribly ignorant on this, but I also don’t think this mindset would be out of the ordinary for African Americans educated in the south in 70’s about Jewish people.
Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 08:32     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Judaism.is.not.a.race! To argue it is is to be a Nazi.


Jews have only been considered white for about twenty years. I grew up in the seventies and believe me, no one thought my family was white. My grandparents immigrated from various parts of Europe and didn't speak a word of Polish, German or Russian. Their immigration documents said "Hebrew" under race. People only say Jews are white now because most benefit from white privilege.


I can't even believe I just read this ^^^. The only people who didn't consider Jews "white" were Nazis. And my white, Jewish grandparents also immigrated from Europe.


Italians and Irish weren't considered white, and you think Jews were? There are people who are not actual Nazis who still think that way even now.
I personally was considered non-white a mere twenty-five years ago. I remember it very well.


What? Where did you grew up? I was born in 1970 and this was not my experience.


I am a Jewish woman was born in 1973 in Chicago. My mother told me when growing up throughout the 1980s to not advertise my Jewishness, that we were recently treated like white people in America and to not lose that status.

Axios had an article recently on how Jewish college students are being forced to hide who they are because of antisemitism on campuses. One of the students interviewed was at GW.
Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 08:18     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Judaism.is.not.a.race! To argue it is is to be a Nazi.


Jews have only been considered white for about twenty years. I grew up in the seventies and believe me, no one thought my family was white. My grandparents immigrated from various parts of Europe and didn't speak a word of Polish, German or Russian. Their immigration documents said "Hebrew" under race. People only say Jews are white now because most benefit from white privilege.


I can't even believe I just read this ^^^. The only people who didn't consider Jews "white" were Nazis. And my white, Jewish grandparents also immigrated from Europe.


Italians and Irish weren't considered white, and you think Jews were? There are people who are not actual Nazis who still think that way even now.
I personally was considered non-white a mere twenty-five years ago. I remember it very well.


What? Where did you grew up? I was born in 1970 and this was not my experience.


OMG! This is why we need to teach history. Where did you learn history.

https://splinternews.com/on-columbus-day-let-s-remember-that-italians-weren-t-a-1793851764#:~:text=The%20period%20between%201880-1920%2C%20known%20as%20%E2%80%9CThe%20Great,two%20races%20in%20America%20then%3A%20black%20and%20white.
Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 08:12     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Jewish is a religion, race, and ethnicity.

Whoopi was a fool to go down this rabbit hole
Anonymous
Post 02/02/2022 08:06     Subject: Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race
Anonymous wrote:Straight up here. Not joking. I am very ignorant in this area. I was educated in the south, didn't know a Jewish person until I was 40 years old (now over 50) I thought Jews were conidered white. I had no reason to think otherwise. I mean of course I knew the horror of the holocaust, but I always thought it was PRIMARILY about religion and Hitler's goal to create a master race.


A master Aryan race with blonde hair and certain features which were opposite of traditional Jewish features.

Hitler wasn’t religious. The holocaust wasn’t a religious crusade.

Much like modern times, an evil person thirsty for power manipulated the masses by othering an easily identifiable minority group.