Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

How many times do you need this explained to you?

How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?

Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.

An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.

Not the PP you are responding to but did you miss their use of the word "become"?

Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

How many times do you need this explained to you?

How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?

Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.

An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.

I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas trees are completely pagan in origin, just like Easter eggs. You can feel perfectly fine having them.

Well, not really, seeing as the Torah prohibits worshiping any pagan or foreign gods. Christian, pagan, whatever -- not acceptable from a religious or traditional standpoint for Jews.

Which isn't to say people don't do it anyway, of course.

They are pagan in origin - that doesn't make them "worship." By the same standard, you'd have to give up those Hannukah gifts (just a concession to Christmas) and a surprising number of other things, like Valentines Day cards, bridesmaids, birthday cakes, and much much more. Good luck with that!

Giving money or candy ("gelt") is a tradition, but I sure am happy to avoid Christmas style gifts on Hannukah. Ditto Vday cards. Already married so bridesmaids are not an issue anymore, but could live without that. And giving up Bday cake would make things easier for our gluten free friends.

Anyway, trees are A. Pagan in origin B. Completely appropriated to Christian traditions C. Essentially rejected (unlike bridesmaids and birthday cakes) by the folk wisdom of the (american) Jewish people, as early as the 1960s. Again, the only Jews I know who do trees are ones where someone in the household grew up non Jewish, OR where they are very assimilated in every other way.

I just think it's very dependent on how someone grew up. DH and I both grew up Jewish, but we are each half Catholic, from a family history standpoint (my mom is Catholic and his dad is Catholic). As a result, we both celebrated Christmas as kids. We're not very religious, but plan to have DD go to Hebrew school through Bat Mitzvah. We'll do Christmas and Hanukkah because it's family tradition.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas trees are completely pagan in origin, just like Easter eggs. You can feel perfectly fine having them.

Well, not really, seeing as the Torah prohibits worshiping any pagan or foreign gods. Christian, pagan, whatever -- not acceptable from a religious or traditional standpoint for Jews.

Which isn't to say people don't do it anyway, of course.

They are pagan in origin - that doesn't make them "worship." By the same standard, you'd have to give up those Hannukah gifts (just a concession to Christmas) and a surprising number of other things, like Valentines Day cards, bridesmaids, birthday cakes, and much much more. Good luck with that!

Giving money or candy ("gelt") is a tradition, but I sure am happy to avoid Christmas style gifts on Hannukah. Ditto Vday cards. Already married so bridesmaids are not an issue anymore, but could live without that. And giving up Bday cake would make things easier for our gluten free friends.

Anyway, trees are A. Pagan in origin B. Completely appropriated to Christian traditions C. Essentially rejected (unlike bridesmaids and birthday cakes) by the folk wisdom of the (american) Jewish people, as early as the 1960s. Again, the only Jews I know who do trees are ones where someone in the household grew up non Jewish, OR where they are very assimilated in every other way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I want to share something that we do, and no we do not have a tree. However, every year my kids make their own Hanukkah decorations and we hang them all over the house. It looks very cute, and every year we add more and more. We do not compete with Christmas. Hanukkah is a holiday that celebrates Jewish strength AND our nonconforming, nonassimilating, unapologetic love for Judaism. Not sure how a Christmas tree figures into this at all. The holiday is not about gift giving. We do Hanukkah gelt and presents. The accent is on gelt, we do not go overboard with presents. One thing we also do, is we pick a day, and recount the stories of Judith and Hannah. On that day everyone does nice things for Mommy and gives her gifts, it's my version of a badass Mother's/Women's day.

You should be thankful you're raising your kids in today's climate.

When I was in second grade, about 50 years ago, the teacher told us to make Christmas decorations. I, being a little Jewish girl (and a creative one at that), put together an elaborate poster about six feet tall, with my family lighting the menorah. When we showed our finished pieces to the teacher, she asked me angrily, "what is THAT supposed to be?" When I told her it was a menorah, she said she had no idea what I was talking about and PUNISHED me for "not following instructions."

I went home crying to my mother. I'll never forget it.

Oh, and this was in upper Montgomery County, MD, mid 1960s.

NP, I'm so sorry you went through that, PP. That's awful.

I experienced some anti-Semitism as well as a kid in Buffalo. When we moved to the NYC suburbs when I was 8, I didn't experience it anymore.

DH and I were raised Jewish, but half our family is Catholic and these things are about family traditions/history for us rather than doctrine, so we have a Christmas tree (we also think it's a really fun holiday). Otherwise we are basically cultural, non-practicing Jews who will make sure our daughter has a Bat Mitzvah to keep up with tradition and give her the foundation she would need in case she wanted to become a more religious Jew.

Anonymous wrote:So I want to share something that we do, and no we do not have a tree. However, every year my kids make their own Hanukkah decorations and we hang them all over the house. It looks very cute, and every year we add more and more. We do not compete with Christmas. Hanukkah is a holiday that celebrates Jewish strength AND our nonconforming, nonassimilating, unapologetic love for Judaism. Not sure how a Christmas tree figures into this at all. The holiday is not about gift giving. We do Hanukkah gelt and presents. The accent is on gelt, we do not go overboard with presents. One thing we also do, is we pick a day, and recount the stories of Judith and Hannah. On that day everyone does nice things for Mommy and gives her gifts, it's my version of a badass Mother's/Women's day.

You should be thankful you're raising your kids in today's climate.

When I was in second grade, about 50 years ago, the teacher told us to make Christmas decorations. I, being a little Jewish girl (and a creative one at that), put together an elaborate poster about six feet tall, with my family lighting the menorah. When we showed our finished pieces to the teacher, she asked me angrily, "what is THAT supposed to be?" When I told her it was a menorah, she said she had no idea what I was talking about and PUNISHED me for "not following instructions."

I went home crying to my mother. I'll never forget it.

Oh, and this was in upper Montgomery County, MD, mid 1960s.

So I want to share something that we do, and no we do not have a tree. However, every year my kids make their own Hanukkah decorations and we hang them all over the house. It looks very cute, and every year we add more and more. We do not compete with Christmas. Hanukkah is a holiday that celebrates Jewish strength AND our nonconforming, nonassimilating, unapologetic love for Judaism. Not sure how a Christmas tree figures into this at all. The holiday is not about gift giving. We do Hanukkah gelt and presents. The accent is on gelt, we do not go overboard with presents. One thing we also do, is we pick a day, and recount the stories of Judith and Hannah. On that day everyone does nice things for Mommy and gives her gifts, it's my version of a badass Mother's/Women's day.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we please come up with a contemporary Hanukkah tradition that will make Elf on the shelf green with jealousy?

There’s Mensch on the Bench!

Is that yiddish or German? what would the Hebrew language word be?
An elf is not actually a person, but a mythical creature from folklore. Christmas traditions are different among different people groups. The Swedish have the horse, Lucia, some celebrate the Advent, there are gnomes, different traditional foods, the flags on the tree

It's a Yiddish word that came from German (there's significant overlap between the two languages). Not sure what the Hebrew would be. But it's a cute idea that we'll probably do for our kid (along with Elf on the Shelf because we're an interfaith family and do both holidays).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas trees are completely pagan in origin, just like Easter eggs. You can feel perfectly fine having them.

Well, not really, seeing as the Torah prohibits worshiping any pagan or foreign gods. Christian, pagan, whatever -- not acceptable from a religious or traditional standpoint for Jews.

Which isn't to say people don't do it anyway, of course.

They are pagan in origin - that doesn't make them "worship." By the same standard, you'd have to give up those Hannukah gifts (just a concession to Christmas) and a surprising number of other things, like Valentines Day cards, bridesmaids, birthday cakes, and much much more. Good luck with that!

To be fair, Jewish preschools don't celebrate Halloween or Valentine's Day.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas trees are completely pagan in origin, just like Easter eggs. You can feel perfectly fine having them.

Well, not really, seeing as the Torah prohibits worshiping any pagan or foreign gods. Christian, pagan, whatever -- not acceptable from a religious or traditional standpoint for Jews.

Which isn't to say people don't do it anyway, of course.

They are pagan in origin - that doesn't make them "worship." By the same standard, you'd have to give up those Hannukah gifts (just a concession to Christmas) and a surprising number of other things, like Valentines Day cards, bridesmaids, birthday cakes, and much much more. Good luck with that!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we please come up with a contemporary Hanukkah tradition that will make Elf on the shelf green with jealousy?

There’s Mensch on the Bench!

Is that yiddish or German? what would the Hebrew language word be?
An elf is not actually a person, but a mythical creature from folklore. Christmas traditions are different among different people groups. The Swedish have the horse, Lucia, some celebrate the Advent, there are gnomes, different traditional foods, the flags on the tree

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just a tree. It’s not just a materialistic holiday. If it were, there wouldn’t be this annual debate. There’s no war on Christmas and there shouldn’t be an imposed requirement to celebrate Christmas either. It’s disrespectful to Christians to pretend the holiday and its symbols (like tree) are stripped of meaning and it’s disrespectful to Jews/Judaism to act as if celebrating Christmas is NBD and has no consequence for Jewish identity on a macro and micro level.

Nope. The "debate " everyone assumes there is comes from the fact that Jew never really celebrated Hanukkah in the way it is now, because it is a minor holiday with really nothing looking like Christmas. After major immigration from Europe, where XMas wasn't even really a thing like it is now...a blow out consumer event, etc., they had to figure out in the 50s and 60s how to deal with what was essentially an American holiday, not really a Christian holiday. It didn't help that everyone was Christian besides them. Hanukkah turned into the competing holiday as it was the same time of year, and it gained steam throughout the years.


Sorry, but the greenery and lights, gifts and whatnot really is a secular cultural holiday that somehow turned into a Christian holiday. It really has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus. There is no need for a debate and all this hand wringing . There are right wingers who think voting is a religious thing, but I do not and have no problem going to the polls. They think a lot of things are religious, but I do not.

Gifts still happen with and with out trees. It is just a tree...really.

Anonymous wrote:Can we please come up with a contemporary Hanukkah tradition that will make Elf on the shelf green with jealousy?

There’s Mensch on the Bench!

Can we please come up with a contemporary Hanukkah tradition that will make Elf on the shelf green with jealousy?